Junior Football needs to evolve or it will die

[hardest ned in glasgow]

aye the reinstatement fee is a load of pish. Need to get rid of that. I'm happy being in the juniors

[macintosh]

Reckon the moves need to start at the top first, from 2013.

Separate league for full-time clubs says Strachan

Gordon Strachan: Joined debate. Picture: SNS

STEPHEN HALLIDAY

HAVE YOUR SAY

GORDON Strachan has entered the heated debate over reconstruction of league football in Scotland, insisting full-time clubs must be given priority in any new plans drawn up by the governing bodies.

The Scotland manager believes there should be a clear separation of those clubs who wish to retain full-time status and those who are established as part-time outfits in smaller towns.

Strachan has expressed his sympathy for Aberdeen chairman Stewart Milne, who was left incensed last week by the Scottish Premier League’s failure to approve the controversial 
12-12-18 reconstruction proposal when it was vetoed by St Mirren and Ross County. According to former Aberdeen midfielder Strachan, the level of investment Milne has put into the Pittodrie club down the years entitles him to be “looked after first” when it comes to formulating a new league set-up in Scotland.

Representatives of First Division clubs, along with relegation-threatened Dundee from the SPL and Second Division champions Queen of the South, met in Hamilton on Monday night as they try to revive the reconstruction process following the collapse of the 12-12-18 bid.

But Strachan is critical of what he sees as full-time clubs being “dictated to” by their part-time counterparts. While the Scottish Football League continue to seek a “42-club solution” to the issue, the Scotland boss is dismissive of suggestions a breakaway of all full-time clubs would sound the death knell for the rest of the senior clubs left behind.

“Too often, just wee things are changed,” said Strachan. “If clubs are full-time, then we should make a league for them. If Stewart Milne or anyone else is prepared to put millions and millions into their club, they deserve to be looked after first.

“Look at the Thompson family, who have put a lot of money into Dundee United. They shouldn’t be dictated to by part-time people telling them how full-time football should be run. If clubs are full-time, then make a league for them. It doesn’t matter how many teams are in it. If there are 24 full-time clubs, make it two divisions of 12 or whatever. If it’s only 16 clubs, then make it one league.

“But make sure that the full-time people are looked after properly. Then they can get on and deal with it as a smaller group. It’s quite simple for me. There is a cut-off line. If you are full-time, brilliant. If you are part-time and you want to go full-time later on, then we will accommodate that.

“It wouldn’t kill off the rest of the clubs. There would still be part-time community clubs and they would still produce players.”

Strachan also feels the ring-fencing of full-time clubs in a new Scottish league system would bring an end to what he regards as the disproportionate influence individuals from smaller clubs can have.

“It saves any of the nonsense of who is voting here, who is doing this, who wants that,” added Strachan. “People look after each other because they want to be involved with the SFA, to be a director of a club and get two or three tickets for an international game or whatever.

“There are places I know where you can be a director of a club for £100. Now, that’s not right. It happened to one of my mates when he had a job in the north-east where ten guys from the terraces each put a tenner in and one of them could come along [as a director] every week.

“Full-time is full-time, get on with it. If players are prepared to go full-time and put their family at risk by committing themselves to that, then they deserve to be looked after. It’s the same for a coach or manager if he goes full-time rather than having another job elsewhere.

“If you are full-time, you need to be looked after. So the people in full-time football should decide how they look after full-time clubs. Clubs can be protected as well. Look at Dunfermline. I don’t know how they got into the mess they are in. I’m not someone who has been behind the scenes there, but I know it would be simpler that way, that means everyone is full-time.”

[HibeeJibee]

Any time a player returns to junior football from the senior grade a fee has to be paid to reinstate them as a junior player. It's basically just a money grab but it leads to all kinds of shenanigans over protests of player ineligibility.

... and it even applies to players who were never instated in the first place (never played Junior), or played abroad where there is no distinction. It does generate income, for the SJFA, but even if that income had to be replaced - they seem to have huge sums in the bank - it could be done in many other ways.

[LongTimeLurker]

I personally don't think the SFA will do anything. You can be committed to the Pyramid whilst being a member of the SJFA. If the SJFA join the Pyramid, so do you. If they try to force you to leave the SJFA in order to comply, they might be on dodgy ground.

Some club needs to be willing to be the Jean-Marc Bosman on this just as somebody has to take the initiative with the retention rule. One thing is for sure Linlithgow Rose reaching the last 16 will make it very difficult for anyone to attempt another move to try to exclude junior clubs from the competition again, and if P&B is any indication, it is making people question exactly why there are two parallel league structures for similar sized part-time clubs.

[cmontheloknow]

... and it even applies to players who were never instated in the first place (never played Junior), or played abroad where there is no distinction. It does generate income, for the SJFA, but even if that income had to be replaced - they seem to have huge sums in the bank - it could be done in many other ways.

Also applies to trialists.

There was a time when the rule had more relevance as to play Junior after Senior at one stage, you had to have played Junior first, therefore you were reinstated Junior. A bit in Alex Ferguson's first autobiography covers this - his dad wanted him to sign for Benburb as an insurance policy to his senior career not panning out but Fergie wouldn't have it..

[parsforlife]

More relevant maybe, but the rule has never been right.

[Burnie_man]

These statistics are, of course, gerrymandered by SFA and SPFL .... if you include all (around 7000) clubs in Scotland, we are actually the weakest system in Europe .. around 25 fans per club ..

Where do you obtain attendance figures from for these 7000 clubs?

[FuzzyBear]

These statistics are, of course, gerrymandered by SFA and SPFL .... if you include all (around 7000) clubs in Scotland, we are actually the weakest system in Europe .. around 25 fans per club ..

Whit ?

How do we compare to other countries if you include every possible club in each country.

[BANKIEBILL]

I think he's being a twat

[Burnie_man]

I think he's being a twat

No, he's being Pete Smyth.

[The Mantis]

These statistics are, of course, gerrymandered by SFA and SPFL .... if you include all (around 7000) clubs in Scotland, we are actually the weakest system in Europe .. around 25 fans per club ..

They're not gerrymandered by Simon Kuper in his book Soccernomics. He only includes the top 2 divisions which puts Scotland 3rd in the world behind the Faroes and Iceland.

Granted, it's skewed by the Old Filth though.

[bigbuff]

This is the best thread on P&B.

For my money I would like to see a pro-youth (only junior) set up at u21's and a regionalised league. These games played on a Sunday. The 21's train with the senior squad each player available through a dual contract to be used if and when required.

I started this with Kilwinning Rangers at beginning of last season, during that promotion winning season 7 of my boys played a part at individual periods of the season with Lewis Hunter actually playing in the West Cup Final. These boys were 17yrs old. For reasons that will remain private out of respect for the club and my current crop, we found ourselves this year with Muirkirk Juniors. A lowly ADL team, but George and his team have brought my boys on and has captured a young team he can mould and improve over a longer period. There was no outlay other than his time and both teams share training costs its a win win. On Saturday 7 of my players started in a 1-1 draw with Craigmark and another 3 on the bench with 2 coming on and 1 scoring.

Now, Muirkirk benefit but so do the boys big time, the preparation, training and standards are much higher than they are used to and they either step up or find another level but the basis of a good team for a few seasons to come are there.

Hats off too to Lugar (although they are Ayr Utd's boys) Whitletts who have started down this route. I would love to see a rule that ADL clubs or equivalent must field a minimum of 4 u21 players per league game. Controversial I know but could it be the conduit for improving the standard for years to come.

[Hillonearth]

To reach a total of 7000 clubs in Scotland, I reckon you'd have to count every kids' team down to toddlers and every bunch of guys having a kickabout in the local park on a sunny day.

We're talking 42 teams in the League proper, about 80 non-league seniors, about 160 juniors, 800-odd amateurs (that was certainly the recent entry to the amateur cup) and 200-odd in the welfare leagues. That makes less than 1300, of whom in the region of 1000 (amateurs and welfare) are more or less recreational and not spectator-driven.

So, really more like 300 clubs actually charging to get in and even bothered about attendances? Including whole grades who don't charge admission and certainly won't keep attendance figures makes for a specious argument when you include them in the national average.

ETA - Forgot the South of Scotland League!

[HibeeJibee]

There were 925 teams playing in regular season Saturday afternoon leagues last season... 111 in the senior pyramid plus NCL; 161 in the Juniors (few may have gone into abeyance tbf); 649 in Amateurs (ditto); and 4 in Welfarers.

That excludes ~150 in Saturday Morning and ~50 in Churches leagues.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_football_league_system#Men.27s_system

On top of that you'll have several hundred Amateur and Welfare clubs playing Sunday or midweek football - plus unis/colleges/police/etc., youths, schools, womens, and so on.

[Hillonearth]

There were 925 teams playing in regular season Saturday afternoon leagues last season... 111 in the senior pyramid plus NCL; 161 in the Juniors (few may have gone into abeyance tbf); 649 in Amateurs (ditto); and 4 in Welfarers.

That excludes ~150 in Saturday Morning and ~50 in Churches leagues.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_football_league_system#Men.27s_system

On top of that you'll have several hundred Amateur and Welfare clubs playing Sunday or midweek football - plus youths, schools, womens, and so on.

I'd actually forgotten about womens' football, so we can probably add another couple of dozen to the clubs who charge admission: the top couple of tiers of the womens' game (below that it's pretty much public parks).

Still nowhere even in the region of 7000, even if we get to the stage where we're including down to church and schools football...

[Burnie_man]

I'd actually forgotten about womens' football, so we can probably add another couple of dozen to the clubs who charge admission: the top couple of tiers of the womens' game (below that it's pretty much public parks).

Still nowhere even in the region of 7000, even if we get to the stage where we're including down to church and schools football...

I wouldn't waste time and energy on trying to work out what nonsense Pete Smyth posts.

Plenty to discuss which is a lot more relevant.

[Sunrise]

I'd actually forgotten about womens' football, so we can probably add another couple of dozen to the clubs who charge admission: the top couple of tiers of the womens' game (below that it's pretty much public parks).

When I was filming the women's game two year's back the top tier (then of 12 clubs) charged £3-5 I think - no-one beneath that charged except for cup finals which were played at Alloa.

At the top end, most except Hutchison Vale played either at senior or junior grounds (HV played at an astro next to Saughton Park).

[lionel hutz]

HJ's (or someone else) might have posted a link for club licensing, ground criteria, etc.

Anyway, here's a shortened pdf of just the ground requirements:

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/SJFAFiles/DocumentsandDownloads/SFAClubLicensing/Part%202%20Section%205%20-%20Ground%20Criteria.pdf

[Man on a bike]

Another day of death for most clubs.

Teams and supporters getting to grounds only to be told the game is off. Even those teams that only pay players by appearance will have pretty disgruntled players. Train all week, turn up on Saturday, get there, probably get kitted out only to be told to forget it, go home.

We can blame the weather, when it decided to rain, how much rain comes down but that doesn't help anyone.

Nobody that I speak with gains anything from things as they are.

Essential we move to a proper assessment for a change of season. Something that gathers views from all involved in the game, and not assuming that good ideas can only come from selected few.

Forget the usual emotional claptrap. Create a case that shows how the junior game can be improved, and the clubs made stronger.

[Roy Race]

I can see only 2 options here, summer football or artificial pitches? I'm sure these debates, and the pros and cons for both have been extensively covered before, but what is for sure is that people will eventually get fed up with this and find something else to do on a Saturday, something that is guaranteed to be on and whereby they can plan their weekends more effectively, whether that is senior football or not doesn't really matter, what does matter is that they will be lost to the grade as a supporter. It must frustrate the hell out of players and officials as well. Today has been virtually a wipe out.

The cost to clubs for wages, programmes, pies and other overheads must be horrendous, surely it can't go on and we've got to remember that say 20-25 years ago most of these games would have been played, but due to the current health and safety craze nowadays, any slight issue with the pitch will result in inspections failing. And maybe that is the point? Are the current policies, criteria and guidelines (if there are any) on what constitutes an unplayable pitch too strict? Do they take the level of the football into consideration? Because a 5% area of the pitch at the corner flag is in a bad way, should that justify a postponement or cancellation of a match?