Junior Football needs to evolve or it will die

[Man on a bike]

Trying to make the junior game more successful I would suggest lies in the hands of the junior clubs. Hang on, I am not suggesting it at all, that is a fact. The SJFA is owned by the clubs which are owned by the supporters. What I am suggesting is that the clubs should accept that responsibility.

So much of what is spoken about here is cosying up to someone whose coat tails we can jump on. Whether it is the much vaunted pyramid, the SFA 'community clubs' or a makey up cup with other non junior clubs, If we go into any of these as a weak partner we will be devoured.

Can we not just start with putting our own house in order? Agree where we are trying to get to before we start coming up with the latest instant solution..

[Burnie_man]

Trying to make the junior game more successful I would suggest lies in the hands of the junior clubs. Hang on, I am not suggesting it at all, that is a fact. The SJFA is owned by the clubs which are owned by the supporters. What I am suggesting is that the clubs should accept that responsibility.

So much of what is spoken about here is cosying up to someone whose coat tails we can jump on. Whether it is the much vaunted pyramid, the SFA 'community clubs' or a makey up cup with other non junior clubs, If we go into any of these as a weak partner we will be devoured.

Can we not just start with putting our own house in order? Agree where we are trying to get to before we start coming up with the latest instant solution..

Well, if we ignore everyone else whilst trying to "get our own house in order" then clubs will be left behind.

The fact is, Junior football has been taken as far as it can, the SJFA are insular, they do not strive for better. We can't wait for another 25 years for basics such as floodlights and fixture lists and improved facilities whilst the likes of the Lowland League strides forward, and clubs need to wake upto this.

Linlithgow got a Licence and are reaping the rewards, Haddington are going down that route as are Auchinleck and others will follow. Clubs making a go of it themselves without waiting for the SJFA to lead, hopefully more follow suit.

The SJFA as an organisation as it stands, is on borrowed time. It needs to engage with the wider football world if it wants to survive in some form. Removing the re-instatement rule and leading the way in abolishing the distinctions between Junior and Senior would be a good start.

[calmac25]

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/SJFAFiles/DocumentsandDownloads/GroundSpecificationCriteria/GROUND%20SPEC-2014.doc

Seen this posted on the gartcairn thread. Ground spec for joining the juniors is pretty close to licencing and actually asks for more cover (200).

This has been updated in the past couple of years. I wonder if the sjfa ever plan to enforce it? They could start with the superleagues and then lower criteria for the districts.

In the east super league a few of the bigger names might struggle to stay where they are now

[.Stuart.]

"FLOODLIGHTING:

Clubs should have a floodlighting facility with an average capacity of 300 Lux, min/max 0.25"

[HTG]

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/resources/documents/SJFAFiles/DocumentsandDownloads/GroundSpecificationCriteria/GROUND%20SPEC-2014.doc

Seen this posted on the gartcairn thread. Ground spec for joining the juniors is pretty close to licencing and actually asks for more cover (200).

This has been updated in the past couple of years. I wonder if the sjfa ever plan to enforce it? They could start with the superleagues and then lower criteria for the districts.

In the east super league a few of the bigger names might struggle to stay where they are now

Assume this was written in 2014. They've never come near to enforcing it otherwise a number of teams would be frantically building cover.

[parsforlife]

Can many clubs claim to meet that criteria?

[surely not!]

I don't find the South Challenge Cup very inspiring and would happily swap it for the Junior Cup. An all-in draw with 160-200 teams most of which you've never met before.

You're just after the all in draw part!

[Burnie_man]

A few brain farts on how the Junior game can start to “evolve”, some more practical than others;

• Abolish the re-instatement rule, effectively removing the last barrier between Junior and Senior status.
• Engage with the EoSFL & SoSFL and invite them to participate in the various Regions Cup eg. EoSFL clubs to participate in the East of Scotland Cup, SoSFL to participate in the West of Scotland Cup. Invite Golspie Sutherland into the North Regional Cup.
• Work positively with these leagues, plus the SFA, HFL & LL on the future of the Pyramid and how the SJFA can play its part, perhaps opening up the Junior Cup to all clubs as a first step with final at Hampden.
• Adopt the SFA Licencing scheme and encourage clubs to participate and gain SFA membership, whilst at the same time investigating ground improvement funding streams eg Scottish Football Partnership.

This isn’t rocket science. Point one can be done at the AGM with a show of hands. Point two I’m sure the clubs wouldn’t be averse to allowing these extra clubs to participate (if they wanted to). Point three should be happening anyway (the talking part) although Junior Cup entry may be more difficult. Point four, again this should be happening anyway and some clubs already doing it.

Tom Johnston & Co should be forgetting all about West/East Superdooper Leagues (which were thrown out anyway), and trying to be more pro-active in integrating Junior clubs into the wider game, which is moving forward whilst we tread water. We can all laugh at the LL and its so-called “made-up” clubs and Uni teams, but they will be the ones playing Celtic, and they are the ones playing in a league with floodlights, stands and fixture lists.

We need to wise up and start playing the game, show willing. The Pyramid is far from perfect, in the East we have clubs like Easthouses opting out and joining the Juniors and (allegedly) Craigroyston following suit, Kelso Utd folded. In the North, licensed clubs can’t even get into the Pyramid (HFL) to start with.

The SJFA should be looking to be in a position to start influencing the future direction of non-league to the benefit of its clubs, at the moment they have no clout whatsoever.

[LongTimeLurker]

The interesting thing to watch will be Haddington Athletic's licensing application and whether they can still stay junior in the aftermath despite the progression clause. If that did happen, I suspect of lot of central belt junior clubs would start looking into it to try to do a Lithgae in the big Scottish Cup, which is why I suspect the SFA won't allow it because it would mean too many snouts at the subsidy trough.

[calmac25]

A few brain farts on how the Junior game can start to “evolve”, some more practical than others;

• Abolish the re-instatement rule, effectively removing the last barrier between Junior and Senior status.
• Engage with the EoSFL & SoSFL and invite them to participate in the various Regions Cup eg. EoSFL clubs to participate in the East of Scotland Cup, SoSFL to participate in the West of Scotland Cup. Invite Golspie Sutherland into the North Regional Cup.
• Work positively with these leagues, plus the SFA, HFL & LL on the future of the Pyramid and how the SJFA can play its part, perhaps opening up the Junior Cup to all clubs as a first step with final at Hampden.
• Adopt the SFA Licencing scheme and encourage clubs to participate and gain SFA membership, whilst at the same time investigating ground improvement funding streams eg Scottish Football Partnership.

This isn’t rocket science. Point one can be done at the AGM with a show of hands. Point two I’m sure the clubs wouldn’t be averse to allowing these extra clubs to participate (if they wanted to). Point three should be happening anyway (the talking part) although Junior Cup entry may be more difficult. Point four, again this should be happening anyway and some clubs already doing it.

Tom Johnston & Co should be forgetting all about West/East Superdooper Leagues (which were thrown out anyway), and trying to be more pro-active in integrating Junior clubs into the wider game, which is moving forward whilst we tread water. We can all laugh at the LL and its so-called “made-up” clubs and Uni teams, but they will be the ones playing Celtic, and they are the ones playing in a league with floodlights, stands and fixture lists.

We need to wise up and start playing the game, show willing. The Pyramid is far from perfect, in the East we have clubs like Easthouses opting out and joining the Juniors and (allegedly) Craigroyston following suit, Kelso Utd folded. In the North, licensed clubs can’t even get into the Pyramid (HFL) to start with.

The SJFA should be looking to be in a position to start influencing the future direction of non-league to the benefit of its clubs, at the moment they have no clout whatsoever.

It really should be this simple

[The Mantis]

You're just after the all in draw part!

You're confusing me with Newky

[Burnie_man]

The interesting thing to watch will be Haddington Athletic's licensing application and whether they can still stay junior in the aftermath despite the progression clause. If that did happen, I suspect of lot of central belt junior clubs would start looking into it to try to do a Lithgae in the big Scottish Cup, which is why I suspect the SFA won't allow it because it would mean too many snouts at the subsidy trough.

I personally don't think the SFA will do anything. You can be committed to the Pyramid whilst being a member of the SJFA. If the SJFA join the Pyramid, so do you. If they try to force you to leave the SJFA in order to comply, they might be on dodgy ground.

[grinderbrokeyourhearts]

A few brain farts on how the Junior game can start to “evolve”, some more practical than others;

• Abolish the re-instatement rule, effectively removing the last barrier between Junior and Senior status.
• Engage with the EoSFL & SoSFL and invite them to participate in the various Regions Cup eg. EoSFL clubs to participate in the East of Scotland Cup, SoSFL to participate in the West of Scotland Cup. Invite Golspie Sutherland into the North Regional Cup.
• Work positively with these leagues, plus the SFA, HFL & LL on the future of the Pyramid and how the SJFA can play its part, perhaps opening up the Junior Cup to all clubs as a first step with final at Hampden.
• Adopt the SFA Licencing scheme and encourage clubs to participate and gain SFA membership, whilst at the same time investigating ground improvement funding streams eg Scottish Football Partnership.

This isn’t rocket science. Point one can be done at the AGM with a show of hands. Point two I’m sure the clubs wouldn’t be averse to allowing these extra clubs to participate (if they wanted to). Point three should be happening anyway (the talking part) although Junior Cup entry may be more difficult. Point four, again this should be happening anyway and some clubs already doing it.

Tom Johnston & Co should be forgetting all about West/East Superdooper Leagues (which were thrown out anyway), and trying to be more pro-active in integrating Junior clubs into the wider game, which is moving forward whilst we tread water. We can all laugh at the LL and its so-called “made-up” clubs and Uni teams, but they will be the ones playing Celtic, and they are the ones playing in a league with floodlights, stands and fixture lists.

We need to wise up and start playing the game, show willing. The Pyramid is far from perfect, in the East we have clubs like Easthouses opting out and joining the Juniors and (allegedly) Craigroyston following suit, Kelso Utd folded. In the North, licensed clubs can’t even get into the Pyramid (HFL) to start with.

The SJFA should be looking to be in a position to start influencing the future direction of non-league to the benefit of its clubs, at the moment they have no clout whatsoever.

Spot on

[Man on a bike]

I personally don't think the SFA will do anything. You can be committed to the Pyramid whilst being a member of the SJFA. If the SJFA join the Pyramid, so do you. If they try to force you to leave the SJFA in order to comply, they might be on dodgy ground.

Many of the more useful contributions here are also the ones which demonstrate the lack of hope by stating views that accept the inevitability of the demise of the junior game. Hard to argue with. If you plot a graph of the number of junior clubs, the attendances across the playing season, the number of clubs closing down or taking a rest for a year will show the gradual demise. And as that graph goes down, just follow the trend and it will hit zero before long. Unless of course something is done to stop the decline.

Having been a member of a sports club, owned by the members, we had an offer from Cala to buy the club grounds, provide new location and facilities. Being owned by the members, each one of us would have ended up with £22-25K.

If we apply the same to the SJFA. I believe there is something just over £1million in the bank or invested. If the 160 member clubs decided enough was enough, they could wind up the SJFA, and share the proceeds equally,That would give every club £6k at least. Then go and join whatever league they wanted.

A bit Armageddon, but legally quite possible, and this possibility is something the SJFA must be aware of and include in their thinking.

[garrellburn]

As far as abolishing reinstatement goes, it has to be put forward as a proposal to the secretary of the association by 30th April for discussion and approval at the AGM in June.

There has been plenty of talk about it but so far in has never been done. It will result in a pretty substantial reduction in income for the SJFA but there can no longer be any justification for retaining it as all registration procedures for all grades are handled by the SFA in any case and the lines between the different grades are becoming increasingly blurred with junior clubs, and now amatuer clubs participating in the Scottish cup. Someone has to put it forward however, who is it going to be?

[Burnie_man]

The SJFA Management Committee can propose the re-instatement rule is abolished themselves at the AGM, and ask for clubs to vote on it.

It doesn't need a club to propose it, but it would be handy if one did rather than hang around waiting for the SJFA to do something. It would cost around £15k a year in fees.

[geo87]

What is the re-in statement rule?

[LongTimeLurker]

Any time a player returns to junior football from the senior grade a fee has to be paid to reinstate them as a junior player. It's basically just a money grab but it leads to all kinds of shenanigans over protests of player ineligibility.

[clash city rocker]

The SJFA Management Committee can propose the re-instatement rule is abolished themselves at the AGM, and ask for clubs to vote on it.

:)

[surely not!]

You're confusing me with Newky

Ha ha my bad mantis. My bad.