Team 16?

[newcastle broon]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

In yer dreams

Well least answer the lad who's team was actually brought in to make the 16,there's a lot of ignorance on this thread...... 

[WaffenThinMint]

Ahem:

3 hours ago, non_sequitur said:

 

Probably a dozen clubs in junior have plastic pitches wi lights I see the Bankies and yoker are getting one and loads of them are part of these local community clubs with kids teams. Kirky building a great new ground. Yer talking pish aboot juniors living in the past, weve lost clubs fae oor league to join them, no bad for a backward league. Fowk like you are the problem.

Was wondering when you were going to turn up, seeing as a fifth of all your posts have been nodding dog posts to anything & everything Burnie Man says, inbetween bitching about Tranent Juniors & bleating "Juniors aw ra way" at every opportunity - curious behaviour for a supposed Burnisland fan, but never mind.

But to put your post about "plastic pitches" into a Junior context, let's have it straight from the horses mouths:

Etc, etc, etc - & that's only this year. The "progressive Juniors" in a nutshell.

We've had years of this nonsense in the Junior forum about 3G/4G - & a handful of clubs moving over doesn't change that. Whatever clubs have taken updated grounds (in some cases because they were left with no choice if they were to get the funding for a new ground from a sponsor or local authority), any claims that the vast majority are anywhere near as happy to move with the times as you'd have it are wishful thinking.

This is what the likes of Auchinleck Talbot, Linlithgow Rose, etc are up against, & always will be where the tyranny of "lowest common denominator" means clubs playing in grounds which would be a bloody disgrace to the Amateur leagues are still allowed to operate & veto anyone wanting their set up to move with the times in terms of what they're offering the public.

And by the way, you can't have a floodlit match in the Juniors unless the other club agrees to it as well - again so much for progress.

[Burnie_man]

35 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Well least answer the lad who's team was actually brought in to make the 16,there's a lot of ignorance on this thread...... 

Ignorance in what way?

[Burnie_man]

46 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Why? Licencing is comfortabley within the reach of most super-league clubs. There is no reason not be moving towards it already. However even recognising the horrendously slow rate of progress within the juniors if they are given fair notice of a LL split they should all be able to achieve a licence before the start of the first season with 3 regions.

Don't see the harm in giving juniors the time to get licenced whilst preserving a fully licenced tier 5.

The LL was brought in with 6 weeks notice. If there was a couple of years notice of changes to the LL then fair enough, but if it's 6 weeks again..........

Pretty unlikely but the SPL and SFL merged pretty quickly as well.

[parsforlife]

The LL was brought in with 6 weeks notice. If there was a couple of years notice of changes to the LL then fair enough, but if it's 6 weeks again..........

Pretty unlikely but the SPL and SFL merged pretty quickly as well.

As you know I disagree on the '6 weeks notice' part given the years of discussion before hand, however I agree that's old ground that doesn't need re-covered.

On this occasion I do mean more in terms of years. If we could agree a 3 region system tommorow I'd be looking at 2018-19 being the first season.

[Burnie_man]

1 minute ago, parsforlife said:

On this occasion I do mean more in terms of years. If we could agree a 3 region system tommorow I'd be looking at 2018-19 being the first season.

I agree, a planned reform rather than on the hoof is far more preferable.  In the intervening period we could see EoS and SoS clubs integrated into the Junior structure, and perhaps HL and LL admitted to the Junior Cup.

 

[parsforlife]

I agree, a planned reform rather than on the hoof is far more preferable.  In the intervening period we could see EoS and SoS clubs integrated into the Junior structure, and perhaps HL and LL admitted to the Junior Cup.

 

Yes that would be ideal.

[Hillonearth]

10 minutes ago, WaffenThinMint said:

Ahem:

Was wondering when you were going to turn up, seeing as a fifth of all your posts have been nodding dog posts to anything & everything Burnie Man says, inbetween bitching about Tranent Juniors & bleating "Juniors aw ra way" at every opportunity - curious behaviour for a supposed Burnisland fan, but never mind.

But to put your post about "plastic pitches" into a Junior context, let's have it straight from the horses mouths:

Etc, etc, etc - & that's only this year. The "progressive Juniors" in a nutshell.

We've had years of this nonsense in the Junior forum about 3G/4G - & a handful of clubs moving over doesn't change that. Whatever clubs have taken updated grounds (in some cases because they were left with no choice if they were to get the funding for a new ground from a sponsor or local authority), any claims that the vast majority are anywhere near as happy to move with the times as you'd have it are wishful thinking.

This is what the likes of Auchinleck Talbot, Linlithgow Rose, etc are up against, & always will be where the tyranny of "lowest common denominator" means clubs playing in grounds which would be a bloody disgrace to the Amateur leagues are still allowed to operate & veto anyone wanting their set up to move with the times in terms of what they're offering the public.

And by the way, you can't have a floodlit match in the Juniors unless the other club agrees to it as well - again so much for progress.

And those quotes prove what exactly? An up to date and well-maintained 3 or 4G pitch is perfectly acceptable and makes complete financial sense both in terms of getting games on and being able to let out the pitch for hire, but you'll find a lot of fans - and most certainly a lot of players - would prefer games on grass.

It's also true they need replacement periodically - off the top of my head, Petershill's is a couple of years past its natural life and overdue being replaced by the council. Debating the pros and cons of something is a world away from being proof of being stuck in the past.

In terms of floodlit games, you're correct as far there are no midweek league games regularly scheduled, and a club would need the agreement of their opponents before re-scheduling a fixture. As it will have invariably have been moved from a Saturday, agreement is necessary because, y'know, it would mean actually having someone to play against... Floodlit games are still rare, but I hope will become more common - we're certainly looking into it.

You seem to have a lazy Graham Spiers-esque view of the grade which might have rung true in the mid-eighties, but bears little relation to what's actually been going on since. Granted, I can think of a few sides that haven't moved with the times, but as I said before, that's more due to individual circumstances - it's just daft to try and put 160 clubs in the same pigeonhole due to your prejudices.

Incidentally, I'd love to know where all these sub-amateur Junior parks are - I've been to all the grounds in the West and East Regions, and quite a few in the North I suspect either hyperbole on your part or that they only exist in your mind - I don't recognise them..

[Dunning1874]

On 15/09/2016 at 12:08, Redstarstranraer said:

The above is important for me.  Definitely think that the Lowland League (and the Highland League for that matter) would gain a lot from there being an automatic and a playoff relegation spot in League Two as happens in the other upper tiers.  Evidently the problem then becomes how you a manage this if say an Elgin City is relegated to presumably the HL and an East Kilbride is promoted from the LL, but the potential for that problem to occur already exists in the pyramid as it stands at present.  What it would do is provide extra interest in all the leagues as (hopefully) teams were to cycle more regularly from tiers 4 to 5.  It would also raise the profile of tier 5 if more 'established' clubs were to feature more regularly and hopefully garner a little bit more media coverage.  Importantly it would show the more ambitious juniors and other clubs that might want to get involved in the pyramid that there was a decent opportunity of progression if they had that ambition.

This is obviously a concern, but it's surely something that will improve with time. If we see another couple of long established League Two clubs going down - with some of them staying down - in the next few years you'd hope the clubs who were then in the SPFL, which you'd hope would include clubs who've gone up from HL/LL and stayed there, would be more willing to look at automatic relegation. Within the next ten years we'll surely have at least one automatic relegation place from Tier 4, hopefully within five.

The bigger long-term concern for me regarding relegation from Tier 4 is the impact on competitiveness at the top end of Tier 5. Regardless of whether the current issues regarding Junior involvement are sorted out in the next few years and we have three regions at Tier 5 with a proper Tier 6 below them, or just two regions with the Tier 6 situation continuing to be a mess, we're still going to have 16 teams or similar in each Tier 5 league.

Only having one promotion place to play for in a 16 team league is a bit crap, never mind having two or three 16 team leagues playing for one promotion place. However with a 10 team fourth tier you can't possibly have more than two relegation spots from Tier 4. Ideally we could have automatic promotion for the winners of each league at Tier 5 as well as a playoff for runners-up to keep things fresh, but realistically you'd need a 16-20 team Tier 4 for that to work which obviously isn't going to happen.

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, Hillonearth said:

And those quotes prove what exactly? An up to date and well-maintained 3 or 4G pitch is perfectly acceptable and makes complete financial sense both in terms of getting games on and being able to let out the pitch for hire, but you'll find a lot of fans - and most certainly a lot of players - would prefer games on grass.

 

Those goddam backward Juniors and criticising 3G pitches

"St Johnstone's Tommy Wright has echoed recent criticism of artificial surfaces used by clubs in Scotland's top flight.Two of the 12 Scottish Premiership clubs - Hamilton Academical and Kilmarnock - do not play on grass."I fully understand why clubs have to do it," manager Wright told BBC Scotland. "It's all about money. For smaller clubs, it's a massive income.But I don't think that, at the top level of the game, they are the answer - it's better to have grass pitches."

"Dundee United captain John Rankin told BBC Scotland's Sportscene that artificial pitches should be banished from the Premiership."

"Rob Kiernan, the Rangers centre half, urged the SPFL to follow the lead of their Football League counterparts in England and do away with plastic pitches before his side’s Scottish Cup replay with Kilmarnock at Rugby Park."

 

Out of interest (because I genuinely don't know) how many HL and LL have a 3G pitch at their own ground? BSC Alloa dont count as its hired.

[Redstarstranraer]

51 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

This is obviously a concern, but it's surely something that will improve with time. If we see another couple of long established League Two clubs going down - with some of them staying down - in the next few years you'd hope the clubs who were then in the SPFL, which you'd hope would include clubs who've gone up from HL/LL and stayed there, would be more willing to look at automatic relegation. Within the next ten years we'll surely have at least one automatic relegation place from Tier 4, hopefully within five.

The bigger long-term concern for me regarding relegation from Tier 4 is the impact on competitiveness at the top end of Tier 5. Regardless of whether the current issues regarding Junior involvement are sorted out in the next few years and we have three regions at Tier 5 with a proper Tier 6 below them, or just two regions with the Tier 6 situation continuing to be a mess, we're still going to have 16 teams or similar in each Tier 5 league.

Only having one promotion place to play for in a 16 team league is a bit crap, never mind having two or three 16 team leagues playing for one promotion place. However with a 10 team fourth tier you can't possibly have more than two relegation spots from Tier 4. Ideally we could have automatic promotion for the winners of each league at Tier 5 as well as a playoff for runners-up to keep things fresh, but realistically you'd need a 16-20 team Tier 4 for that to work which obviously isn't going to happen.

Well East Stirlingshire are doing their bit in terms of keeping the Lowland League competitive.  

Regarding the promotion aspect as it stands I think the best we can hope for is one automatic relegation place that one tier 5 team would 'win' in a playoff between the HL and LL winners, with the losing playoff finalist taking on the second bottom League Two outfit.  I don't think that'll happen any time soon though.  Whilst East Stirlingshire were an established League Two side they had unfortunately established themselves around the bottom of the league for so long I doubt the other clubs (rightly or wrongly) consider their situations to be anything comparable and if, as looks quite possible, Edinburgh City go straight back down we could be some time away from seeing much circulation at all between the fourth and fifth tiers.  I hope I'm wrong about that as I do think as per my previous post a few HL/LL sides getting promoted would freshen up League Two, if only in terms of fan interest, and a couple of 'established' clubs being confronted with playing HL/LL football might also aid the development of that level as well.  It remains to be seen how much better, if at all, your average bottom half League Two side is compared to the average HL/LL side; if they are a lot better under the current system we won't see them monopolise the top of tier 5 but simply remain in the level above (as the SPFL no doubt perhaps intended to some extent).

Unless something really radical happens (colt teams or regionalisation for example) then League Two isn't getting expanded and all signs are the clubs don't want that sort of change.  So two relegation spots is as you say the probable limit.  Actually though large leagues with only one or two promotion spots can work.  If you look at the English National League for example the 24 teams there are playing for only one automatic and one playoff promotion slot.  The 22 teams in the National League North/South are playing for the same.  It should be noted I suppose that there are four relegation spots in each league which adds a bit more drama at that end of the table than is likely to be available in our fifth tier.  The 16/18 teams of the LL/HL playing for one possible promotion spot (per league) isn't entirely comparable but a similar enough arrangement to that which seems to work in other leagues.  I'm not saying it'd be ideal or my preferred solution but having the two leagues at present with two available promotion spots could be made to work with the leagues essentially otherwise unchanged from what they are at present and would get a bit more circulation going through the pyramid.  If of course the SPFL were minded to give it a go.

If we get three 16-18 team leagues though at tier 5 level then it's another discussion entirely.

[Burnie_man]

Well East Stirlingshire are doing their bit in terms of keeping the Lowland League competitive.  

Regarding the promotion aspect as it stands I think the best we can hope for is one automatic relegation place that one tier 5 team would 'win' in a playoff between the HL and LL winners, with the losing playoff finalist taking on the second bottom League Two outfit.  I don't think that'll happen any time soon though.  Whilst East Stirlingshire were an established League Two side they had unfortunately established themselves around the bottom of the league for so long I doubt the other clubs (rightly or wrongly) consider their situations to be anything comparable and if, as looks quite possible, Edinburgh City go straight back down we could be some time away from seeing much circulation at all between the fourth and fifth tiers.  I hope I'm wrong about that as I do think as per my previous post a few HL/LL sides getting promoted would freshen up League Two, if only in terms of fan interest, and a couple of 'established' clubs being confronted with playing HL/LL football might also aid the development of that level as well.  It remains to be seen how much better, if at all, your average bottom half League Two side is compared to the average HL/LL side; if they are a lot better under the current system we won't see them monopolise the top of tier 5 but simply remain in the level above (as the SPFL no doubt perhaps intended to some extent).

Unless something really radical happens (colt teams or regionalisation for example) then League Two isn't getting expanded and all signs are the clubs don't want that sort of change.  So two relegation spots is as you say the probable limit.  Actually though large leagues with only one or two promotion spots can work.  If you look at the English National League for example the 24 teams there are playing for only one automatic and one playoff promotion slot.  The 22 teams in the National League North/South are playing for the same.  It should be noted I suppose that there are four relegation spots in each league which adds a bit more drama at that end of the table than is likely to be available in our fifth tier.  The 16/18 teams of the LL/HL playing for one possible promotion spot (per league) isn't entirely comparable but a similar enough arrangement to that which seems to work in other leagues.  I'm not saying it'd be ideal or my preferred solution but having the two leagues at present with two available promotion spots could be made to work with the leagues essentially otherwise unchanged from what they are at present and would get a bit more circulation going through the pyramid.  If of course the SPFL were minded to give it a go.

If we get three 16-18 team leagues though at tier 5 level then it's another discussion entirely.

What's your thoughts on regionalisation eg. League Two integrating with current HL/LL or even a three region set-up?

[WaffenThinMint]

Since you're so determined for a reply...

5 hours ago, Hillonearth said:

Excellent tears’n’snotters rant, but not really borne out by any form of reality.

You’ve made the mistake that many do of thinking of the Juniors as some monolithic bloc, when in reality each club has its own story to tell. With 160-odd clubs, it’s patently obvious that the cookie-cutter club setup you apparently prefer is unlikely ever to be achievable.

Likewise, the vivid picture of decay you paint is almost exclusively only true at the lowest end of the scale – we can all think of a couple of grounds that look like something out of the Flintstones, but they tend to be the ones that are run almost against the odds by a few dedicated volunteers without the means to do much about it. It would be a shame to sweep them aside in pursuit of the conformity you desire – a form of football Darwinism if you like.

It’s also disingenuous to say that facilities are the be all and end all of any overall decline in attendances – if that were the case, the likes of Ainslie Park would be full to the rafters every other week. The real cause of the overall slump in attendances throughout the game over the last 20 years is that thing that sits in the corner of your living room; “today’s fan – the future of the game” is more and more likely to be planning their weekend round Palace v Stoke on Sky on Sunday afternoon rather than going to an actual game tomorrow.

You specifically mentioned St Roch’s who are currently rebuilding since near-extinction less than a decade ago. While I wouldn’t be comfortable with my club associating themselves so closely with another in the way they’ve done with their historic Celtic connections, it’s clearly working for them, and I’d say that they’re turning into a more genuine community-based club than many others who have taken the box-ticking ,certificate-based approach to community engagement.

There are elements of what you say I agree with however; the ridiculous arms race to fund player wages at the expense of development of grounds etc. It has to be said that doesn’t only happen at non-league level however – we can see it all through the sport – it only seems more egregious as you go down the grades and see teams otherwise on the bones of their arse doing it.

In terms of being hidebound and married to tradition, it’s interesting to note that when we moved a fixture to last Friday in order to prevent a clash with the following day’s OF game , the most vocal opposition on here to doing so didn’t actually come from other Junior supporters, rather from fans of senior clubs – a Thistle fan who obviously had the hump that no-one had ever switched a fixture to avoid a clash with one of THEIR games, and an Arbroath fan who from his haddock-scented wee bubble couldn’t seem to understand the logistics of being – apologies for extending the marine metaphor – a small fry in the same pool as two big fish.

Let's take your rambling post part by part:

1. You’ve made the mistake that many do of thinking of the Juniors as some monolithic bloc, when in reality each club has its own story to tell. With 160-odd clubs, it’s patently obvious that the cookie-cutter club setup you apparently prefer is unlikely ever to be achievable.

So having admitted that you cannot get common cause even within the Junior ranks, why bother attempting to negotiate with them at all when they cannot even decide what it is they want - what they really, really want?

Hence why the Seniors - after wasting a decade trying to come to agreement with them - in the end lost patience & went on without them.

2. Likewise, the vivid picture of decay you paint is almost exclusively only true at the lowest end of the scale – we can all think of a couple of grounds that look like something out of the Flintstones, but they tend to be the ones that are run almost against the odds by a few dedicated volunteers without the means to do much about it. It would be a shame to sweep them aside in pursuit of the conformity you desire – a form of football Darwinism if you like.

That "lowest end of the scale" represents the vast majority of Junior clubs, & deep down you know it. Of course, such a situation suits the egos at the alpha end of the Junior system - the more clubs there are in a system they will perpetually be superior to, the better they can feel about themselves.

No one is arguing for football Darwinism - a straw man argument if ever there was one. But for the likes of Lugar Boswell, Royal Albert & especially Coltness/Newmains, a system where the biggest excitement fans can hope for in perpetuum is stumbling from crisis to crisis (over players, finance, etc) rather than on the field is one long overdue reform. Yet here we have Juniors fundamentalists giving lectures to the Lowland/EoS/SoS on how to run their affairs "for the good of the game"!

3. It’s also disingenuous to say that facilities are the be all and end all of any overall decline in attendances – if that were the case, the likes of Ainslie Park would be full to the rafters every other week. The real cause of the overall slump in attendances throughout the game over the last 20 years is that thing that sits in the corner of your living room; “today’s fan – the future of the game” is more and more likely to be planning their weekend round Palace v Stoke on Sky on Sunday afternoon rather than going to an actual game tomorrow.

Again a straw man. No one is saying they are the be all and end all - but they are a deciding factor in an age of more choices to spend your leisure time with than ever before, & those who proffer their leisure wares on a "take it or leave it" basis will go much the same way the bowling alleys & bingo halls of yesteryear went until they smarten up their act.

Less & less people are understandably prepared to pay good money to watch a game of football in a setting worse than that proffered to fans by the local Powerleague or whatever.

4. You specifically mentioned St Roch’s who are currently rebuilding since near-extinction less than a decade ago. While I wouldn’t be comfortable with my club associating themselves so closely with another in the way they’ve done with their historic Celtic connections, it’s clearly working for them, and I’d say that they’re turning into a more genuine community-based club than many others who have taken the box-ticking ,certificate-based approach to community engagement.

If pandering to local Green Brigade wannabe toerags & the pretend ethnicity pretensions of the lower orders is what a football club needs to stay alive, football is better off without it. One thing I'll say for both Larkhall Thistle & their former local rivals Royal Albert, at least they never sold their souls to appeal to the worst primitive instincts of the local scheme goblins to stay afloat.

5. There are elements of what you say I agree with however; the ridiculous arms race to fund player wages at the expense of development of grounds etc. It has to be said that doesn’t only happen at non-league level however – we can see it all through the sport – it only seems more egregious as you go down the grades and see teams otherwise on the bones of their arse doing it.

It happens far more as a proportion of the money Junior clubs have available to them for the simple reason the infrastructure requirements within the Junior set up are so minimal.

Which is why they are so against the whole SFA club licensing system where over time standards will inevitably increase the further up the grade you wish to progress. There's no point in trying to deny there's a massive mindset problem to all this, where behind the false platitudes of "soulless grounds" lies a combination of inverted snobbery & a plain old callous disregard for the paying customer that seems to be very much a Scottish problem & certainly plays a large part as to why locals can't be bothered to attend games even when the ground lies across the street from themselves.

6. In terms of being hidebound and married to tradition, it’s interesting to note that when we moved a fixture to last Friday in order to prevent a clash with the following day’s OF game , the most vocal opposition on here to doing so didn’t actually come from other Junior supporters, rather from fans of senior clubs – a Thistle fan who obviously had the hump that no-one had ever switched a fixture to avoid a clash with one of THEIR games, and an Arbroath fan who from his haddock-scented wee bubble couldn’t seem to understand the logistics of being – apologies for extending the marine metaphor – a small fry in the same pool as two big fish.

I would say the main reason so many Junior sides moved their fixtures to avoid a clash with the OF game was down to many of the "wha's lik' us?" loudmouths not wanting to miss their big team playing in the Bigotfest (see the "Bigteamers" list for so-called Petershill fan Glenconner outing himself as a Rangers fan & of course the ultra-loyal to Glencairn Glensmad admitting to his 25 year season ticket for Ibrox...).

[calmac25]

Out of interest (because I genuinely don't know) how many HL and LL have a 3G pitch at their own ground? BSC Alloa dont count as its hired.


Spartans
East Kilbride
Gala
Cumbernauld colts

Stirling uni, bsc and east Stirlingshire play on other people's plastic pitches.

In the highland league no team currently play on 3g but cove and inverurie both plan to have them at their new grounds

[WaffenThinMint]

3 hours ago, Hillonearth said:

And those quotes prove what exactly? An up to date and well-maintained 3 or 4G pitch is perfectly acceptable and makes complete financial sense both in terms of getting games on and being able to let out the pitch for hire, but you'll find a lot of fans - and most certainly a lot of players - would prefer games on grass.

It's also true they need replacement periodically - off the top of my head, Petershill's is a couple of years past its natural life and overdue being replaced by the council. Debating the pros and cons of something is a world away from being proof of being stuck in the past.

In terms of floodlit games, you're correct as far there are no midweek league games regularly scheduled, and a club would need the agreement of their opponents before re-scheduling a fixture. As it will have invariably have been moved from a Saturday, agreement is necessary because, y'know, it would mean actually having someone to play against... Floodlit games are still rare, but I hope will become more common - we're certainly looking into it.

You seem to have a lazy Graham Spiers-esque view of the grade which might have rung true in the mid-eighties, but bears little relation to what's actually been going on since. Granted, I can think of a few sides that haven't moved with the times, but as I said before, that's more due to individual circumstances - it's just daft to try and put 160 clubs in the same pigeonhole due to your prejudices.

Incidentally, I'd love to know where all these sub-amateur Junior parks are - I've been to all the grounds in the West and East Regions, and quite a few in the North I suspect either hyperbole on your part or that they only exist in your mind - I don't recognise them..

And those quotes prove what exactly?

They were in response to Burnie_Man's pet poodle/sock puppet or whatever's attempted response (funny how he/she/it turned up after BuM painted himself into a corner saying he was sticking me on ignore, but I'll leave that one for the mods or the usual suspects in GN to investigate...), where a handful of Juniors with so-called "plastic pitches" (in some cases, council owned facilities anyway) was somehow proof of a broader mindset within the Junior world than recent history has shown to be the case. 3G/4G pitches cause cancer indeed!

In terms of floodlit games, you're correct as far there are no midweek league games regularly scheduled, and a club would need the agreement of their opponents before re-scheduling a fixture.

Case closed. What was acceptable enough for Third Lanark and Vale of Leven in the 19th century is still not good enough for some in the Juniors in the 21st century, long after the rest of football in western civilisation has accepted it & invalidated any "principled" excuses to refuse to play a match under it.

You seem to have a lazy Graham Spiers-esque view of the grade which might have rung true in the mid-eighties, but bears little relation to what's actually been going on since. Granted, I can think of a few sides that haven't moved with the times, but as I said before, that's more due to individual circumstances - it's just daft to try and put 160 clubs in the same pigeonhole due to your prejudices.

Aaaaand you've just answered your own question - except change that from "few" to "many".

160 clubs, plenty of them with bugger all in common with one another, many more suited to amateur than the quasi-semi professional grade the Juniors has pretensions to being.

I have no "prejudices" towards the Juniors - hell I posted over in that section for long enough! What I do have is an exasperation towards the belligerent intransigence to anything smacking of evolution, whilst demanding everyone else changes their working practices to suit them & ONLY them.

When even the SPL/SFL accept things can't go on & reform, when the non-league Seniors accept things cannot go on & reform, but the Juniors alone decide that everything in the Schipka Pass Leagues is perfect & what fine fellows they all are into the bargain, you can't keep kidding yourself on that they've got one hell of an attitude problem that's the main stumbling block to progress.

And hence, again, why the rest of Scottish football needs to start dealing with Junior clubs on a case by case basis. If that means divide & conquer, sadly so be it, but it's not as if you're dividing what's not even united to begin with by your own admission...

P.S. With regard to grounds, there's a special place in footballing hell for Dunipace, Forth Wanderers, Glasgow Perthshire, Kilwinning Rangers, Maybole, Newmains, Saltcoats Victoria, St Anthony's, St Roch's, Wishaw from the West alone. Arniston Rangers from memory was a particularly dispiriting archetypal Junior ground stuck in a timewarp from the era Fred Pontin built his first holiday camp.

[Patches O'Houlihan]

6 minutes ago, calmac25 said:

Out of interest (because I genuinely don't know) how many HL and LL have a 3G pitch at their own ground? BSC Alloa dont count as its hired.


Spartans
East Kilbride
Gala
Cumbernauld colts

Stirling uni, bsc and east Stirlingshire play on other people's plastic pitches.

In the highland league no team currently play on 3g but cove and inverurie both plan to have them at their new grounds

Do Cumbernauld not hire the pitch as well??

[Hillonearth]

10 minutes ago, WaffenThinMint said:

Since you're so determined for a reply...

Let's take your rambling post part by part:

1. You’ve made the mistake that many do of thinking of the Juniors as some monolithic bloc, when in reality each club has its own story to tell. With 160-odd clubs, it’s patently obvious that the cookie-cutter club setup you apparently prefer is unlikely ever to be achievable.

So having admitted that you cannot get common cause even within the Junior ranks, why bother attempting to negotiate with them at all when they cannot even decide what it is they want - what they really, really want?

Hence why the Seniors - after wasting a decade trying to come to agreement with them - in the end lost patience & went on without them.

2. Likewise, the vivid picture of decay you paint is almost exclusively only true at the lowest end of the scale – we can all think of a couple of grounds that look like something out of the Flintstones, but they tend to be the ones that are run almost against the odds by a few dedicated volunteers without the means to do much about it. It would be a shame to sweep them aside in pursuit of the conformity you desire – a form of football Darwinism if you like.

That "lowest end of the scale" represents the vast majority of Junior clubs, & deep down you know it. Of course, such a situation suits the egos at the alpha end of the Junior system - the more clubs there are in a system they will perpetually be superior to, the better they can feel about themselves.

No one is arguing for football Darwinism - a straw man argument if ever there was one. But for the likes of Lugar Boswell, Royal Albert & especially Coltness/Newmains, a system where the biggest excitement fans can hope for in perpetuum is stumbling from crisis to crisis (over players, finance, etc) rather than on the field is one long overdue reform. Yet here we have Juniors fundamentalists giving lectures to the Lowland/EoS/SoS on how to run their affairs "for the good of the game"!

3. It’s also disingenuous to say that facilities are the be all and end all of any overall decline in attendances – if that were the case, the likes of Ainslie Park would be full to the rafters every other week. The real cause of the overall slump in attendances throughout the game over the last 20 years is that thing that sits in the corner of your living room; “today’s fan – the future of the game” is more and more likely to be planning their weekend round Palace v Stoke on Sky on Sunday afternoon rather than going to an actual game tomorrow.

Again a straw man. No one is saying they are the be all and end all - but they are a deciding factor in an age of more choices to spend your leisure time with than ever before, & those who proffer their leisure wares on a "take it or leave it" basis will go much the same way the bowling alleys & bingo halls of yesteryear went until they smarten up their act.

Less & less people are understandably prepared to pay good money to watch a game of football in a setting worse than that proffered to fans by the local Powerleague or whatever.

4. You specifically mentioned St Roch’s who are currently rebuilding since near-extinction less than a decade ago. While I wouldn’t be comfortable with my club associating themselves so closely with another in the way they’ve done with their historic Celtic connections, it’s clearly working for them, and I’d say that they’re turning into a more genuine community-based club than many others who have taken the box-ticking ,certificate-based approach to community engagement.

If pandering to local Green Brigade wannabe toerags & the pretend ethnicity pretensions of the lower orders is what a football club needs to stay alive, football is better off without it. One thing I'll say for both Larkhall Thistle & their former local rivals Royal Albert, at least they never sold their souls to appeal to the worst primitive instincts of the local scheme goblins to stay afloat.

5. There are elements of what you say I agree with however; the ridiculous arms race to fund player wages at the expense of development of grounds etc. It has to be said that doesn’t only happen at non-league level however – we can see it all through the sport – it only seems more egregious as you go down the grades and see teams otherwise on the bones of their arse doing it.

It happens far more as a proportion of the money Junior clubs have available to them for the simple reason the infrastructure requirements within the Junior set up are so minimal.

Which is why they are so against the whole SFA club licensing system where over time standards will inevitably increase the further up the grade you wish to progress. There's no point in trying to deny there's a massive mindset problem to all this, where behind the false platitudes of "soulless grounds" lies a combination of inverted snobbery & a plain old callous disregard for the paying customer that seems to be very much a Scottish problem & certainly plays a large part as to why locals can't be bothered to attend games even when the ground lies across the street from themselves.

6. In terms of being hidebound and married to tradition, it’s interesting to note that when we moved a fixture to last Friday in order to prevent a clash with the following day’s OF game , the most vocal opposition on here to doing so didn’t actually come from other Junior supporters, rather from fans of senior clubs – a Thistle fan who obviously had the hump that no-one had ever switched a fixture to avoid a clash with one of THEIR games, and an Arbroath fan who from his haddock-scented wee bubble couldn’t seem to understand the logistics of being – apologies for extending the marine metaphor – a small fry in the same pool as two big fish.

I would say the main reason so many Junior sides moved their fixtures to avoid a clash with the OF game was down to many of the "wha's lik' us?" loudmouths not wanting to miss their big team playing in the Bigotfest (see the "Bigteamers" list for so-called Petershill fan Glenconner outing himself as a Rangers fan & of course the ultra-loyal to Glencairn Glensmad admitting to his 25 year season ticket for Ibrox...).

In my defence, my original post was only rambling to the extent I was trying to address your initial stream of consciousness online breakdown.

1. It should be evident - should be - that a grade with the sheer amount of members the Juniors do will find it more difficult -maybe in the end it will prove to be impossible - to adopt a one size fits all approach - Pollok have not much in common with Buckie Rovers to give an extreme example. And quoting the Spice Girls suggests your cultural taste ends roughly ten years after your knowledge of the Juniors does.

2. So, basically what you're advocating is cherry-picking a dozen sides or so and f**k the rest? Really worked out for the EoS League, that did...

3. You made the point that facilities were a crucial factor in dwindling attendances, not me. If they really were, there would be new-build stadiums filled to capacity. They're not.

4. I've already stated I wouldn't be comfortable if my club went down that route, but "lower orders?" Really?

5. You've evidently got access to the accounts of the 159 clubs I haven't seen. Either that or you're dealing in assumptions.

6. A grand total of THREE games were moved. See the thread over on the Juniors forum for all you need to know.

 

[Hillonearth]

2 minutes ago, Patches O'Houlihan said:

Do Cumbernauld not hire the pitch as well??

They hire it from NLC who own it, but I believe they're the primary tenant.

[Burnie_man]

39 minutes ago, calmac25 said:

Out of interest (because I genuinely don't know) how many HL and LL have a 3G pitch at their own ground? BSC Alloa dont count as its hired.


Spartans
East Kilbride
Gala
Cumbernauld colts

Stirling uni, bsc and east Stirlingshire play on other people's plastic pitches.

In the highland league no team currently play on 3g but cove and inverurie both plan to have them at their new grounds

Thanks

[Redstarstranraer]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

 

What's your thoughts on regionalisation eg. League Two integrating with current HL/LL or even a three region set-up?

 

As far as regionalisation at League Two level goes I'm not convinced it's necessary or desired by the clubs and fans involved (which is what should really determine the issue).  If we were to bring it in at that level then there would be little sense in stopping there either; having a two or three region set up at tier 4 with a 10 team tier 3 above it would probably seem undesirable to the SPFL and still create the potential bottleneck in the pyramid discussed above. I would imagine in that situation you'd be looking at a somewhat bigger tier 2, say 18-22 clubs, and regional leagues below that level.  

The issue is of course that when regionalisation has been discussed for League One and Two clubs the general sentiment amongst fans (myself included) has generally been hostile to the idea, as they want their clubs to continue playing in a national league system.  Its also evident the clubs are capable of playing in a national league set up without any negative financial implications.  I don't see that changing soon even if on paper regionalisation was a more 'rational' way of organising the pyramid.  

It might be a better idea to 'merge' Leagues One and Two into something around the 18-22 club mark.  You could then keep the two promotion spots, one automatic and one playoff (preferably without involving the second bottom team from the tier above, pet peeve of mine) and have say four relegation slots available.  In that way there would be much more potential for circulation between the new tier 3 and 4 and HL/LL clubs would have a much better chance of progression.  Or indeed clubs from a 3 region set up at that level.  As an aside I'd generally prefer larger leagues anyway, as playing each other four times a season (or more depending on cup draws) isn't a recipe for excitement.

Much as I as a follower of a League One club don't necessarily want to be placed in a regional league without having a say on the idea I appreciate fans of LL/HL and junior (or EOSL/SOSL) clubs won't want their team shuffled into a new set up without their say so.  For that reason I'm a bit reticent about telling folk where their club ought to be in a regional set up (or in the case of the juniors in what FA set up they ought to play).  If HL/LL clubs are fine with the current split I've no issue with that continuing, but evidently it would be preferable if there was a tier 6 in the north and those junior sides that want to get into the pyramid are found a place.  If that means a E/W/N split at that level I'd not have any objection personally but then I wouldn't be directly affected.  

Personally I wouldn't like those clubs in the likes of the SOSL to be bypassed by any new entrant to the LL or whatever it was called, i.e. I'd like new clubs to start at the bottom of the system and work their way up if possible.

To be honest I've read a lot of stuff on this thread about plastic pitches, floodlighting, grace periods and licencing and I'm not too keen to get involved in all that...