Team 16?

[Burnie_man]

4 hours ago, VodkaTap said:

So what you are really saying is that only the juniors know wot's best for non league footie & has decided it was their way or no way ????

Everyone has to fall in with their view - or they will simply take the huff, pick up their ball & go play by themselves !

What an arrogant view to hold !!

 

Arrogant, or entirely sensible?  if you think that a single division of 16 clubs to cover all of Scotland south of the Tay was the best solution, then you're part of the problem.

 

[Burnie_man]

20 minutes ago, VodkaTap said:

If this 3 region view was proposed by the Juniors then this was not the reason given as to why they wanted nothing to do with the setup of the LL.

The comments at the time were all about not enough information, it was all too rushed and so on. Nothing about it should be 3 leagues.

This sounds more like re-writing of the history to suit the current attitudes to a pyramid.

I totally understand that there enough quality junior teams coupled with the existing LL teams to provide a healthy two team league outwith the highland league.

But please don't try to tell us that this is why the juniors did not engage in the pyramid process

No re-writing of history.

The SJFA were against a single LL division, they were mandated by the clubs to keep the existing three region Junior structure.

The LL was rushed through and not enough information was available, that's the two main reasons why no Junior club broke ranks from the SJFA's position and took the plunge.

Most people involved in these debates (Junior or Senior) know that's largely the case.

Now, rather than raking over old ground that has been done to death, why not give a view on where we should go next to get to a truly inclusive pyramid.

 

[Burnie_man]

2 hours ago, bendan said:

I think most people would agree that a E/W/N split would be better, but only *if* the Juniors joined. I can't help suspecting the juniors would encourage an E/W split but then still refuse to join, for other reasons.

 

Why would you think that?   Most of this stuff is done behind closed doors. Tom Johnston of the SJFA has an office at Hampden, he is on SFA Boards, he goes to some International matches as an SFA blazer, he knows all about the politicking that goes on at Hampden and if Regan and/or Doncaster or whoever came chapping on his door and spoke to him about getting involved with an LL East/West split I'm fairly certain he would be receptive and go and speak to Junior clubs. He is a paid employee of the SJFA so is answerable to the clubs, he can't knock back suggestions such as this himself.

[parsforlife]

I'm fairly certain he would be receptive and go and speak to Junior clubs. He is a paid employee of the SJFA so is answerable to the clubs, he can't knock back suggestions such as this himself.

Tom Johnston would act slowly, fail to deliver information he had been given and deliberately mislead clubs, as he and other senior junior figures have done repeatedly.

He is meant to represent clubs, but he clearly hasn't been held to account. Until this happens a progressive approach is highly unlikely.

[VodkaTap]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

No re-writing of history.

The SJFA were against a single LL division, they were mandated by the clubs to keep the existing three region Junior structure.

The LL was rushed through and not enough information was available, that's the two main reasons why no Junior club broke ranks from the SJFA's position and took the plunge.

Most people involved in these debates (Junior or Senior) know that's largely the case.

Now, rather than raking over old ground that has been done to death, why not give a view on where we should go next to get to a truly inclusive pyramid.

 

If this is to be a remodelled pyramid and i do think non league football deserves to have the best of the best involved at the top level. 

I feel that the first step should come from the juniors and indicate their willingness to engage in the pyramid process.

Integration into one setup needs to happen for all non league teams. Integration of leagues below the LL into the junior setup

This should also include giving up long cherished terms, like EOS league, SOS League & Juniors in all their various leagues.

Complete integration of teams below LL level playing in a national cup competition as currently happens in the Juniors.

A clear pathway of promotion and relegation to be established

We currently have 3 top leagues of 16 LL, 16E & 12W teams.

16 seems to be the preferred number of teams in a league so how those top 32 teams are chosen remains a major issue.

Those are my views & would love to hear some comments on them - with alternatives of course

 

[Burnie_man]

5 hours ago, parsforlife said:

 

Tom Johnston would act slowly, fail to deliver information he had been given and deliberately mislead clubs, as he and other senior junior figures have done repeatedly.

He is meant to represent clubs, but he clearly hasn't been held to account. Until this happens a progressive approach is highly unlikely.

Whether that is true or not is debatable, however, in this modern world of social media (and yes it has moved on in these last 3-4 years), I'm sure that IF there was a plan being talked about to encourage Junior clubs into a Pyramid, it would soon be out in the open. Plus if lessons were to be learned from when the LL was set-up, information could be provided to clubs directly.

However as I keep saying, there has to be a willingness to change (on both sides), and IMO the first move has to come from the LL/SFA/SPFL. It's they that hold all the cards.

[parsforlife]

They can't encourage junior to move up if they are not in a position to do so.


The best move that could happen right now is for the SJFA to require all super league clubs to hold a licence, say from start of season 18/19. This would show commitment to integration and provide enough clubs for a 3 region system..The sfa should allow the comitment to pyramid clause to be met by this move. This is a harmless move as even if things progress no further there will still be an improvement in standards in the juniors and many clubs getting a crack at the Scottish Cup.


Obviously I'd hope things would move on from there, with a season or 2 of licenced super leagues after which we see a season with the top 1/2 (of course the west region will have copied the east by now to prevent so East and west provide same number of clubs) entering into a new 3 region set up at the start of the following season. The sos and eos can be absorbed into the juniors bringing numbers back up an we have a Pyramid from spfl to lower end juniors.

Talks with amatuer league would begin then.

[Burnie_man]

You would have to allow Junior clubs to join a re-modelled LL set-up with a licencing grace period, just as happened to clubs who signed up at the start of the LL.

There is next to no chance that Junior clubs will adopt licencing voluntarily, apart from those very few who are looking to take advantage of Scottish Cup participation. A grace period of two seasons would suffice. The rules were already bent to allow the likes of Vale of Leithen to remain a LL club despite no licence being attained before the deadline, so no reason not to allow the same flexibility.

I'd also like to see a grace period for those EoS and SoS clubs who do not meet the basic SJFA ground criteria eg Peebles, to allow them to be absorbed en-masse into the Junior set-up.

There's going to have to be a lot of give and take.

[VodkaTap]

2 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Whether that is true or not is debatable, however, in this modern world of social media (and yes it has moved on in these last 3-4 years), I'm sure that IF there was a plan being talked about to encourage Junior clubs into a Pyramid, it would soon be out in the open. Plus if lessons were to be learned from when the LL was set-up, information could be provided to clubs directly.

However as I keep saying, there has to be a willingness to change (on both sides), and IMO the first move has to come from the LL/SFA/SPFL. It's they that hold all the cards.

 

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

You would have to allow Junior clubs to join a re-modelled LL set-up with a licencing grace period, just as happened to clubs who signed up at the start of the LL.

There is next to no chance that Junior clubs will adopt licencing voluntarily, apart from those very few who are looking to take advantage of Scottish Cup participation. A grace period of two seasons would suffice. The rules were already bent to allow the likes of Vale of Leithen to remain a LL club despite no licence being attained before the deadline, so no reason not to allow the same flexibility.

I'd also like to see a grace period for those EoS and SoS clubs who do not meet the basic SJFA ground criteria eg Peebles, to allow them to be absorbed en-masse into the Junior set-up.

There's going to have to be a lot of give and take.

We have been hearing all along from those outwith the LL that it needs to change and accept the Junior suggestion that what needed all along is a two league setup.

But then the claim is that the LL also needs to take the first step to make that change ??? Why would that need to be the case ??

The LL teams are already happy with the current setup - the clamour for change is from those outwith - mostly in the junior ranks.

The LL is now in it's third year since inception. we have all 16 teams with the minimum requirement of an entry level licence plus we also have a further 9 teams with an entry level licence, 4 within the SOS league with 1 more currently in the process, 2 of them in the Junior ranks and 3 others.

We have sufficient teams who already qualify to allow promotion & relegation to take place as all have accepted that they will engage in the pyramid system

With the above already in place, surely it is the teams in the junior ranks that need to show something not seen before - a desire to have an integrated non league setup.

As you have said Junior teams will not spend any money to obtain a licence - obviously they give their team a much higher priority.

It is the desire within the junior ranks that is missing  when it comes to obtaining a licence since all of those teams outwith the current LL setup would love to have the finances available to the top league junior teams.

Any re-modelled LL setup will not happen overnight - nor even over 1 season. I suspect we are looking at at least a couple of years before the negotiations are complete and the change agreed.

Surely during that time the junior ground criteria for the top leagues could incorporate the entry level requirement and we start then with every team competing on a level playing field.

I still remain to be convinced of the desire from the majority of teams in the top junior leagues to move to a re-modelled, integrated non league setup.

[bendan]

Didn't the SJFA propose a some kind of junior equivalent of the LL around the time of its formation? And didn't they basically refuse to support any route back to the juniors other than from the bottom?

One argument put forward by the juniors in the past was that there was no point in them giving up games against their current opponents to play against the likes of Galashiels and Selkirk, as crowds and standards would be lower. Obviously, over time the better teams would rise to the higher levels of the non-league pyramid, but in the beginning there would have to be some willingness from the juniors to accept some LL teams that might not appear very strong.

I don't personally see any pressure on the SFA to do anything (though I wish there was). The LL seems to me, as a neutral, to be slowly strengthening. I know there are problems with the level below, but that's largely to do with all the teams that have left to make up the LL - that process is now over. If we see more relegations and promotions from/into the SPFL, that will raise the status of the league. A long time down the line it may be the SJFA knocking on the door.

[bendan]

10 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Arrogant, or entirely sensible?  if you think that a single division of 16 clubs to cover all of Scotland south of the Tay was the best solution, then you're part of the problem.

 

I don't think it was the best solution, but I think people are exaggerating how terrible an idea it was. There had to be some recognition of the current senior set up and the relative strength of the HFL. It would only be by the juniors joining that the balance would have shifted. The lack of commitment from them made it pretty much impossible to propose a three-way split. There's also the fact that anyone with ambition would have to be prepared to play in a national SPFL2 if promoted, so travel could not be a reason, only the imbalance of the regions. Would it really matter if there were far more teams south of the Tay than north? We've seen in England that things can be adjusted over time as long as the general commitment to the idea is there.

[parsforlife]

You would have to allow Junior clubs to join a re-modelled LL set-up with a licencing grace period, just as happened to clubs who signed up at the start of the LL.

Impossibe for that to be agreed to by spfl and current LL clubs. Remember junior clubs are joining the pyramid, they must meet the standards already in place, can't wait on the sidelines but still ask for the same benefits granted at the start.

There is next to no chance that Junior clubs will adopt licencing voluntarily,

Part of the problem...

Licencing is well within the grasp of super league clubs and even without ultimate pyramid participation would be a positive move. Why should anyone listin if you are not willing to make a move that would help yourselfs anyway?

[Rab B Nesbit]

5 hours ago, VodkaTap said:

 

We have been hearing all along from those outwith the LL that it needs to change and accept the Junior suggestion that what needed all along is a two league setup.

But then the claim is that the LL also needs to take the first step to make that change ??? Why would that need to be the case ??

The LL teams are already happy with the current setup - the clamour for change is from those outwith - mostly in the junior ranks.

The LL is now in it's third year since inception. we have all 16 teams with the minimum requirement of an entry level licence plus we also have a further 9 teams with an entry level licence, 4 within the SOS league with 1 more currently in the process, 2 of them in the Junior ranks and 3 others.

We have sufficient teams who already qualify to allow promotion & relegation to take place as all have accepted that they will engage in the pyramid system

With the above already in place, surely it is the teams in the junior ranks that need to show something not seen before - a desire to have an integrated non league setup.

As you have said Junior teams will not spend any money to obtain a licence - obviously they give their team a much higher priority.

It is the desire within the junior ranks that is missing  when it comes to obtaining a licence since all of those teams outwith the current LL setup would love to have the finances available to the top league junior teams.

Any re-modelled LL setup will not happen overnight - nor even over 1 season. I suspect we are looking at at least a couple of years before the negotiations are complete and the change agreed.

Surely during that time the junior ground criteria for the top leagues could incorporate the entry level requirement and we start then with every team competing on a level playing field.

I still remain to be convinced of the desire from the majority of teams in the top junior leagues to move to a re-modelled, integrated non league setup.

Totally agree. As I said above from a WW point of view the LL has been great for us. While one non league set up would be nice the juniors not joining the LL has in many ways been a major bonus as we go from strength to strength. 

[The_Judge]

6 hours ago, VodkaTap said:

 

We have been hearing all along from those outwith the LL Burnie_Man that it needs to change

The LL teams are already happy with the current setup - the clamour for change is from Burnie_Man.

 

 

[Burnie_man]

Just for clarity, because it seems it’s required for some people, is that I would like to see a fully integrated Pyramid system encompassing all non-league clubs in Scotland.  I want to see Senior and Junior status abolished (and Amateur), with all clubs treated as clubs, and all footballers treated as footballers, no divisions.

 

I post from a largely Junior viewpoint because that’s the football I watch, I have sat on committees, have been involved in meetings at Regional and National level. I have a feel for how the SJFA and clubs view the LL/Pyramid and provide opinion on that basis. It’s only an opinion, reality could now be very different as I have been out the loop for the last few seasons and I am just a fan, but I don’t think I’m too far away from the mark.

 

The fact remains that if we want to ever see a proper Pyramid in Scotland, there is going to have to be some concessions on both sides as I speculated on above. If there’s not, then we get nowhere and both sides are as bad as each other. Junior football is 140 years old, there a clubs who have been Junior that whole time, rightly or wrongly you don’t change an institution like that overnight.

 

I get the fact that there are people involved in the LL who really wouldn’t welcome Junior clubs into the set-up as it makes their task a whole lot more difficult on the pitch. To use WW as an example, Bonnyrigg Rose, Linlithgow Rose, Bo’ness Utd and Kelty Hearts replacing the likes of Selkirk, Hawick, Preston, VoL etc over time in an East LL, whilst making it a much stronger league, also makes it more difficult for them to compete and progress.

 

I also get the fact the despite there being a lot of Junior clubs who would welcome integration, there’s just as many who would not and are happy doing what they do in a strong set-up, one which they see is much stronger than the LL/EoS/SoS. They have no interest in the SPFL. The big fish in small pond syndrome.

 

The next step IMO has to be splitting the LL, and that change has to be initiated by the LL themselves, or the SFA/SPFL. They hold all the cards and with the EoS is failing, one of the two main feeders, the LL is not going to get stronger from the bottom up.

 

 It won’t happen overnight, if at all, but if you’re a non-league football fan in Scotland I’d like to think that integration is what you want to see. It would make the game below the SPFL so much stronger and at the top level, much more attractive. I personally want to see Auchinleck, Pollok, Linlithgow, Kelty enter tier 5, not Edusport Academy, but that’s the reality of the current situation.

 

I’ll continue to contribute on that basis, and it’s good to see some comments on here over the last 30-odd pages which grasp the reality.

[afca32]

Any updates on what's going on at Haddington @The Old Northerner?

[VodkaTap]

2 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Just for clarity, because it seems it’s required for some people, is that I would like to see a fully integrated Pyramid system encompassing all non-league clubs in Scotland.  I want to see Senior and Junior status abolished (and Amateur), with all clubs treated as clubs, and all footballers treated as footballers, no divisions.

 

I post from a largely Junior viewpoint because that’s the football I watch, I have sat on committees, have been involved in meetings at Regional and National level. I have a feel for how the SJFA and clubs view the LL/Pyramid and provide opinion on that basis. It’s only an opinion, reality could now be very different as I have been out the loop for the last few seasons and I am just a fan, but I don’t think I’m too far away from the mark.

 

The fact remains that if we want to ever see a proper Pyramid in Scotland, there is going to have to be some concessions on both sides as I speculated on above. If there’s not, then we get nowhere and both sides are as bad as each other. Junior football is 140 years old, there a clubs who have been Junior that whole time, rightly or wrongly you don’t change an institution like that overnight.

 

I get the fact that there are people involved in the LL who really wouldn’t welcome Junior clubs into the set-up as it makes their task a whole lot more difficult on the pitch. To use WW as an example, Bonnyrigg Rose, Linlithgow Rose, Bo’ness Utd and Kelty Hearts replacing the likes of Selkirk, Hawick, Preston, VoL etc over time in an East LL, whilst making it a much stronger league, also makes it more difficult for them to compete and progress.

 

I also get the fact the despite there being a lot of Junior clubs who would welcome integration, there’s just as many who would not and are happy doing what they do in a strong set-up, one which they see is much stronger than the LL/EoS/SoS. They have no interest in the SPFL. The big fish in small pond syndrome.

 

The next step IMO has to be splitting the LL, and that change has to be initiated by the LL themselves, or the SFA/SPFL. They hold all the cards and with the EoS is failing, one of the two main feeders, the LL is not going to get stronger from the bottom up.

 

 It won’t happen overnight, if at all, but if you’re a non-league football fan in Scotland I’d like to think that integration is what you want to see. It would make the game below the SPFL so much stronger and at the top level, much more attractive. I personally want to see Auchinleck, Pollok, Linlithgow, Kelty enter tier 5, not Edusport Academy, but that’s the reality of the current situation.

 

I’ll continue to contribute on that basis, and it’s good to see some comments on here over the last 30-odd pages which grasp the reality.

12 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Rest assured, we do understand your desire to see a fully integrated pyramid system for all non-league teams. We also understand your desire for total integration with no divisions and post from a largely junior viewpoint.
We get all of this and are well aware of your credentials.

We also fully understand the lengthy history of the Junior setup and how difficult it will be to change such an institution.

We know that there are some teams in the LL that would not welcome involvement from the junior teams just as there are junior teams that would not wish to get involved with the LL

So far not a lot of disagreement between us.

You state and have repeated this point without any explanation of your reasons, that change must be instigated by the LL.  
I simply don't get this at all – why must the change be instigated by the LL ??  They are happy with the current setup !!

Sure it could be improved with the addition of the top junior league teams we all know that too.

The real give and take that would be required from both sides is if we were to have full integration at tier 5.
That is where we will have the difficult task of bringing 44 teams from the existing 3 top leagues down to the anticipated 2 x 16 team leagues.

Where you and I have a fundamental difference of where we go next is in the intitial first steps required.

I believe the junior teams need to demonstrate they want one non-league setup.
That should be a simple statement of intent.
Once that is agreed then all the teams need to indicate if they are willing to be involved.
Again a simple statement of intent.
After that negotiations can begin to re-model the LL to a 2 tier league.
While that is taking place then the Junior ground criteria should be amended to include a requirement for an entry level licence for the top leagues in both East & West.
Those teams that do not wish to participate in an integrated setup would not obtain the licence needed.

There is more that we agree on than divides us on a desire for a fully integrated non-league setup without the current historic divisions.
 

[Burnie_man]

The simple statement of intent was already given 4-5 years ago, the Juniors would consider participation if the three region system remained intact. To the best of my knowledge that has not changed.

Until such times as the LL/SFA/SPFL indicate that they intend to move to that system, then there is nothing further to add as far as the SJFA are concerned. If the authorities are happy with a single LL division then that's it, there will be no all encompassing Pyramid. The SJFA are not going to make a statement that they will only become involved if the LL reforms, they have already made that clear and they wont make fools of themselves by doing so only to be told "No, the LL are happy as they are".

The fact is, as much as I would like to see integration, the Juniors don't need the LL if there is no change. They carry as is, and perhaps more EoS clubs make the move over to the Juniors and we continue to watch from afar.

So it's the LL or even the LL clubs themselves that need to initiate change, perhaps via informal discussions with the SJFA to test the water, but if they are happy as it is then that wont happen.

However, I'd question how happy everyone connected with the LL are, we've seen some grumbles on here, I've also heard a few over the last few years, mainly down to quality of teams coming in and lack of fans. That might become louder if Edusport gain promotion.

 

[newcastle broon]

Examples please from the LL who are not happy with the set up Burnie_man  ? 

I personally would welcome the added additions of the Junior clubs you mentioned, after all the pyramid is meant for teams to find their level. 

You keep saying it's all aw aboot the LL that need to negotiate change,it takes 2 to tango bud. 

The biggest anomaly for me within the set up is,and nae disrespect meant to the teams involved but teams can play in whatever association they want as long as they have a license which dangles a Scottish Cup entry.

Somebody somewhere needs to address this and we're half way there. 

 

[Burnie_man]

I'm not going to name names on a public forum, but you yourself were grumbling a few pages back in a moment of epiphany! The East Stirling thread has fans mumbling about lack of away support. Others suggest that Edusport winning promotion is not the answer, neither is BSC playing in Alloa.

Your last sentence is correct, we need someone to address the whole issue. Ideally that would be the SFA, but they are not interested, if they were then they would be doing their upmost to bring in 160+ clubs into the pyramid. They're doing diddly squat.