Team 16?

[AsimButtHitsASix]

There's virtually no appetite apart from a couple - and I mean a couple - of smaller sides in the East who have expressed a degree of interest in joining  the LL, and as time has passed I imagine the likes of Pollok or Talbot will be looking in and finding throwing their hats in  an even less credible prospect.

 

There's absolutely zero chance of the junior big guns south of the Tay countenancing joining a tier below the LL, and up north the Highland League's pretty much declared itself a closed shop.

Aye I know. And it would take a number of clubs to move at once but the basic set up's all but there

[lionel hutz]

There's virtually no appetite apart from a couple - and I mean a couple - of smaller sides in the East who have expressed a degree of interest in joining  the LL, and as time has passed I imagine the likes of Pollok or Talbot will be looking in and finding throwing their hats in  an even less credible prospect.

Haddington and?

[Hillonearth]

Haddington and?

 

Didn't Blackburn express a vague interest when the LL first began? If not, apologies to them and make that just the one team!

 

Aye I know. And it would take a number of clubs to move at once but the basic set up's all but there

 

I agree - just a shame there isn't a fairly successful three-region setup established already. Oh, wait...

 

Though as I said, there's absolutely no chance the real junior biggies would ever agree to slot in below the LL as it stands. Take Pollok for example who play in a fairly local setup to crowds of 600-odd most home games and are currently playing live on TV in front of a crowd of maybe 4-5000 - aye all right...it's Alba, but still... They're not going to swap that for traipsing 100-150 miles every fortnight to play in front of a few dozen punters any time soon.

[newcastle broon]

Didn't Blackburn express a vague interest when the LL first began? If not, apologies to them and make that just the one team!

 

 

I agree - just a shame there isn't a fairly successful three-region setup established already. Oh, wait...

 

Though as I said, there's absolutely no chance the real junior biggies would ever agree to slot in below the LL as it stands. Take Pollok for example who play in a fairly local setup to crowds of 600-odd most home games and are currently playing live on TV in front of a crowd of maybe 4-5000 - aye all right...it's Alba, but still... They're not going to swap that for traipsing 100-150 miles every fortnight to play in front of a few dozen punters any time soon.

Why no let the LL clubs in your special cup that's televised then, it might be a start.

Oh wait there already is a breakthrough with junior clubs in the other associations Scottish Cup....

[Hillonearth]

Why no let the LL clubs in your special cup that's televised then, it might be a start. Oh wait there already is a breakthrough with junior clubs in the other associations Scottish Cup....

 

I'd personally love to see an all-in non-league trophy, equivalent of an FA vase or whatever.

 

It would be a great method of sorting out once and for all how the various setups actually compare in terms of strength - how's about last 16 in that cup forms the following year's Tier 5?!

 

ETA: Bags not Wick away.

[newcastle broon]

I'd personally love to see an all-in non-league trophy, equivalent of an FA vase or whatever.

 

It would be a great method of sorting out once and for all how the various setups actually compare in terms of strength - how's about last 16 in that cup forms the following year's Tier 5?!

 

ETA: Bags not Wick away.

One of cup ties anything can happen though,a 30 game season certainly changes the goalposts. League tables don't lie.

My point is the sfa have already maybes showed their hand allowing junior clubs in the Scottish Cup... The sjfa on the other hand don't seem to be or wanting to communicate on anything else other than the status quo it is now ?

To me that's no the LL or sfa fault ?

[Hillonearth]

One of cup ties anything can happen though,a 30 game season certainly changes the goalposts. League tables don't lie. My point is the sfa have already maybes showed their hand allowing junior clubs in the Scottish Cup... The sjfa on the other hand don't seem to be or wanting to communicate on anything else other than the status quo it is now ? To me that's no the LL or sfa fault ?

 

There's been fault on both sides IMO, mostly down to both sides' self-interest and protectionism which has led to the current clusterfuck.

 

The SJFA blazerati were intransigent as always in the initial negotiations I'm led to believe and there's definitely been more than a smidgeon of the time-honoured "well, that's not the way we've always done it before" to their approach to the pyramid question. On the other side of the coin, the accusation that the LL was the brainchild of a few clubs desperate to get into the League who subsequently made as sure as they could it would then be winnable by them could also hold a bit of water.

 

Cup entry is symptomatic of the whole thing unfortunately. Though personally I'd be all for at the very least inviting the champions of the HL, LL, EoS and SoS into the Junior Cup, there's too many Junior clubs who would be terrified one of them might actually win the thing, so would vote against it. Likewise, there's been digs at Junior participation in the Scottish Cup since it began - let's not forget, there's only been about 10 or 15 teams out of 160-odd who have actually participated - with the non-league Seniors aggrieved that the potential moneymaking ties are possibly not going to go to them anymore, and the money they pick up for entry will be diluted.

[Robert James]

Yes the North Caledonian League should be a Highland feeder, and theoretically it could be expanded to include junior clubs east of Inverness.. Currently there are 6 NCL teams, with a seventh, Tain St Dufus FC likely to rejoin next season according to its website. There are also 2 clubs which enter the main NCL cup competitions, ie: Shetland FC and Lewis & Harrs FC.  The problem is geography and the weather.

[lionel hutz]

Yes the North Caledonian League should be a Highland feeder, and theoretically it could be expanded to include junior clubs east of Inverness.. Currently there are 6 NCL teams, with a seventh, Tain St Dufus FC likely to rejoin next season according to its website. There are also 2 clubs which enter the main NCL cup competitions, ie: Shetland FC and Lewis & Harrs FC.  The problem is geography and the weather.

Tain and Inverness Athletic have both been accepted to the Caley League next season.

Personally, The NCFL should be at Tier 7 IMO.

HL (16)

North Super League (16)

North One East, North One west, NCFL (

[Burnie_man]

Didn't Blackburn express a vague interest when the LL first began? If not, apologies to them and make that just the one team!

 

 

I think the club has only ever said that they were willing to be part of whatever transpired whilst remaining Junior.

 

We're nowhere near big enough to be competing at tier 5 of Scottish football anyway, we need to get the big Junior clubs interested in that.

[Robert James]

My view is that Tier 7 for the North Caledonian League is wrong as it doesn't solve the problem, because the travel distances don't work for either the NCL or the North Junior clubs. The solution is to have two regional sections, namely the NCL (North) and the NCL (East), with the winners of each section having a play-off at the end of the season. The play-off winners should then be promoted to the Highland League, if they have an SFA Licence and floodlights (HFL requirement). Hence the pyramid north would be in place..It would also solve the problem if/when the Highland League is required to reduce to 16 clubs.The dividing line would  be clubs to the east of Inverness would probably join the East Section. 

 

The above assumes that at least 8 of the North Juniors want to join a Highland pyramid, which I understand is more likely than those in the West & East Juniors joining the Lowland Pyramid in the near future, as it currently stands. Hence the pyramid west/east/south/lowland needs a more radical solution.  

[LongTimeLurker]

Didn't Blackburn express a vague interest when the LL first began?

 

There were seven that were quoted in the papers as having expressed some sort of vague level of interest in a survey that was sent out. From memory they were, St Rochs, Rossvale, Kirkintilloch Rob Roy and Clydebank in the west, Blackburn and Haddington in the east and Banks o' Dee up north. Since then only the last two have made any serious attempt to get involved with licensing, along with Linlithgow Rose who appear to have zero interest in LL and were grandfathered in before the commitment to the principle of progression clause was inserted as a condition. Haddington Athletic are going to be the test case of what happens on that when a junior club gets an entry level licence and whether that actually does mean having to leave the SJFA to pursue progression to the LL and SPFL.

[Robert James]

Regarding Team 16, (and team 15 following Threave's return to the SoSL), I understand that on Monday 6th June, the Lowland League will interview the 3 licensed applicants for the 2 Lowland League vacancies. In brief, the main questions are what can they bring to the LL, namely :

 

Hawick Royal Albert - the LL would benefit from a club from the Borders. Hawick has a population of approximately 15,000 (providing a decent fan base), a good ground, floodlights, and the team has made significant on-field progress during the season just ended:

 

Civil Service Strollers - the Strollers have a long and stable history, and are believed to be financially secure. The club was unfortunate not to have been promoted as the 16th team last year, when it failed to reach the required licensing standard within the required time-scale

 

Edusport Academy -  a team of French students, who are in receipt of a footballing and academic education in Scotland. Although it has no community fan base, EA finished as SoSR runners-up, in the season just ended.

 

Not being considered are SoSR champions St Cuthbert Wanderers, who failed to obtain an SFA licence in time. The reasons for this are set out in a new statement on the club's website, which hopefully kills off the 'conspiracy' theory promulgated in some quarters.

 

:

 

. 

[cmontheloknow]

Regarding Team 16, (and team 15 following Threave's return to the SoSL), I understand that on Monday 6th June, the Lowland League will interview the 3 licensed applicants for the 2 Lowland League vacancies. In brief, the main questions are what can they bring to the LL, namely :

 

Hawick Royal Albert - the LL would benefit from a club from the Borders. Hawick has a population of approximately 15,000 (providing a decent fan base), a good ground, floodlights, and the team has made significant on-field progress during the season just ended:

 

Civil Service Strollers - the Strollers have a long and stable history, and are believed to be financially secure. The club was unfortunate not to have been promoted as the 16th team last year, when it failed to reach the required licensing standard within the required time-scale

 

Edusport Academy -  a team of French students, who are in receipt of a footballing and academic education in Scotland. Although it has no community fan base, EA finished as SoSR runners-up, in the season just ended.

 

Not being considered are SoSR champions St Cuthbert Wanderers, who failed to obtain an SFA licence in time. The reasons for this are set out in a new statement on the club's website, which hopefully kills off the 'conspiracy' theory promulgated in some quarters.

 

:

 

. 

 

So the floundering Gala Fairydean, Vale of Leithen and Selkirk are not enough? The region does not need another club at level 5. HRA's onfield record of being one of Scotland's worst clubs in a generation makes them prime candidates to get up on sporting merit and that alone.

 

League Record from 1990:

1990-91: 4th East of Scotland Division 1, 23pts from 18 games (2pts per win)

1991-92: 5th East of Scotland Division 1, 21pts from 20 games (2pts per win)

1992-93: 3rd East of Scotland Division 1, 25pts from 18 games (2pts per win)

1993-94: 9th East of Scotland Division 1, 9pts from 18 games (2pts per win) (bottom)

1994-95: 3rd East of Scotland Division 1, 24pts from 20 games (2pts per win)

1995-96: 9th East of Scotland Division 1, 26pts from 22 games

1996-97: 4th East of Scotland Division 1, 36pts from 22 games

1997-98: 9th East of Scotland Division 1, 25pts from 22 games

1998-99: 6th East of Scotland Division 1, 33pts from 24 games

1999-00: 8th East of Scotland Division 1, 22pts from 20 games

2000-01: 4th East of Scotland Division 1, 29pts from 20 games

2001-02: 12th East of Scotland Division 1, 9pts from 22 games (bottom)

2002-03: 9th East of Scotland Division 1, 25pts from 22 games

2003-04: 10th East of Scotland Division 1, 16pts from 22 games

2004-05: 9th East of Scotland Division 1, 19pts from 22 games

2005-06: 11th East of Scotland Division 1, 14pts from 20 games (bottom)

2006-07: 11th East of Scotland Division 1, 4pts from 20 games (bottom)

2007-08: 10th East of Scotland Division 1, 18pts from 22 games

2008-09: 12th East of Scotland Division 1, 2pts from 22 games (bottom)

2009-10: 12th East of Scotland Division 1, 6pts from 22 games (bottom)

2010-11: 12th East of Scotland Division 1, 5pts from 22 games (bottom)

2011-12: 13th East of Scotland Division 1, 13pts from 24 games (bottom)

2012-13: 14th East of Scotland Division 1, 10pts from 26 games (bottom)

2013-14: 7th East of Scotland Division 1, 19pts from 18 games

2014-15: 8th East of Scotland Division 1, 14pts from 28 games (bottom)

2015-16: 5th East of Scotland League, 48pts from 28 games

 

None of the applicants make the league stronger. CSS - an amateur team from an area that already has 5 other teams.

[LongTimeLurker]

Do they actually need to have 16 clubs next season or can they choose to operate with 14 instead? I guess there is a perceived need to have 30 league games because arguments might start over whether it's fair to relegate an SPFL club into a division with only 26 games.

[Robert James]

Undoubtedly, SPFL Division 2 teams who are related into the Lowland League, would need to play more than 14 clubs &  26 league games per season, as this would represent an ongoing reduction of 10 games per season. The loss of revenue  arising from 5 less Home games, as suggested by would be unsustainable. 

 

Perhaps Pollok FC would like to make a late application to fill one of the 2 vacancies ! Of course they can't because they aren't licensed.

 

Any club, in whichever league throughout the world, should be encouraged to progress on and off the field, if they wish to do so. It is their risk. Also, it is for the Lowland League to decide if these applicants should be admitted into its membership, ,without reference to 'objectors' whose own club has no ambition to progress beyond its current status. .

[LongTimeLurker]

Gordon Smith's original proposal was two ten team feeders playing 36 games. That's an issue the SFA should revisit. 

[cmontheloknow]

Undoubtedly, SPFL Division 2 teams who are related into the Lowland League, would need to play more than 14 clubs &  26 league games per season, as this would represent an ongoing reduction of 10 games per season. The loss of revenue  arising from 5 less Home games, as suggested by would be unsustainable. 

 

Perhaps Pollok FC would like to make a late application to fill one of the 2 vacancies ! Of course they can't because they aren't licensed.

 

Any club, in whichever league throughout the world, should be encouraged to progress on and off the field, if they wish to do so. It is their risk. Also, it is for the Lowland League to decide if these applicants should be admitted into its membership, ,without reference to 'objectors' whose own club has no ambition to progress beyond its current status. .

 

Pollok's position is irrelevant on this - the question I am addressing is should the LL expand for the sake of it or actively look at ways of raising the playing standards. Their position is passive when it needs to be assertive and proactive. I'll say it again - the three candidates do nothing to improve the league on or off-field - I believe they will dilute the quality there already is.

 

It's been addressed time and again why the Juniors have not jumped at this:

 

1. tradition of playing Junior clubs

2. perception that LL is not a step up and SPFL L2 is not a viable next step for clubs happy to play at a competitive regional level

3. increased costs with a potential for gates to fall

4. no agreement with SJFA for clubs 'doing a Threave' - TR go back into SOSL - a Junior club going back down would face a 5 division relegation - that is not reasonable.

5. The Junior Cup remains for a significant amout of people the focus of the season

 

I think it also needs said that for all its flaws, the Junior system works. Had the SFA adopted its sensible 3 region structure there may have been more engagement with the pyramid. The LL is little more than an EoSL/SOSL merger with geographial bias towards those areas. OK, a few clubs are from outwith those regions now but AT THIS POINT what is the incentive for a big Junior club to leave historic rivalries and competitions behind?

 

I think things will change in future but right now it's just not the right time.

 

Things that could change it:

 

1. The success or otherwise of Edinburgh City

2. If the LL continues to thrive rather than stagnate

3. If the SFA revise the pathways for Scottish Cup qualification (changes voted down a few years ago)

4. If the two LL feeders (such as they are) become unviable and the SJFA assume control of them (a bit like the Intermediate grade in NI)

5. If the Junior Cup opens up to all clubs outwith SPFL's 4 national divisions

 

Just one other thing that is a bit of a hindrance for Pollok - they have not had the benefit of SFA handouts for decades so have had to rely on raising every penny they have spent. This has culminated in a successful team on field but to sustain success, money needs to be spent and at this level, it's not a small amount. There is no surplus to put aside, so those in change have to decide: save and invest or spend and stay at a competitive level. Having been relegated and seen the effect of that, it's a no brainer. There's no point having facilities better than present if crowds tumble along with the team. The support Pollok have is an asset - and not something to be taken for granted. I also think a lot of supporters have zero interest in LL.

[The Mantis]

Pollok's position is irrelevant on this - the question I am addressing is should the LL expand for the sake of it or actively look at ways of raising the playing standards. Their position is passive when it needs to be assertive and proactive. I'll say it again - the three candidates do nothing to improve the league on or off-field - I believe they will dilute the quality there already is.

 

It's been addressed time and again why the Juniors have not jumped at this:

 

1. tradition of playing Junior clubs

2. perception that LL is not a step up and SPFL L2 is not a viable next step for clubs happy to play at a competitive regional level

3. increased costs with a potential for gates to fall

4. no agreement with SJFA for clubs 'doing a Threave' - TR go back into SOSL - a Junior club going back down would face a 5 division relegation - that is not reasonable.

5. The Junior Cup remains for a significant amout of people the focus of the season

 

I think it also needs said that for all its flaws, the Junior system works. Had the SFA adopted its sensible 3 region structure there may have been more engagement with the pyramid. The LL is little more than an EoSL/SOSL merger with geographial bias towards those areas. OK, a few clubs are from outwith those regions now but AT THIS POINT what is the incentive for a big Junior club to leave historic rivalries and competitions behind?

 

I think things will change in future but right now it's just not the right time.

 

Things that could change it:

 

1. The success or otherwise of Edinburgh City

2. If the LL continues to thrive rather than stagnate

3. If the SFA revise the pathways for Scottish Cup qualification (changes voted down a few years ago)

4. If the two LL feeders (such as they are) become unviable and the SJFA assume control of them (a bit like the Intermediate grade in NI)

5. If the Junior Cup opens up to all clubs outwith SPFL's 4 national divisions

 

Just one other thing that is a bit of a hindrance for Pollok - they have not had the benefit of SFA handouts for decades so have had to rely on raising every penny they have spent. This has culminated in a successful team on field but to sustain success, money needs to be spent and at this level, it's not a small amount. There is no surplus to put aside, so those in change have to decide: save and invest or spend and stay at a competitive level. Having been relegated and seen the effect of that, it's a no brainer. There's no point having facilities better than present if crowds tumble along with the team. The support Pollok have is an asset - and not something to be taken for granted. I also think a lot of supporters have zero interest in LL.

I'm used to green-dotting you as you talk loads of sense but come on. 5 divisions? This grows arms and legs every time.

Presumably you go to Pollok AGMs so have you any idea what sort of turnover they have and what proportion of that is gate money?

 

The reason I'm asking is, it's easy to get into a 'grass is always greener' type argument about seniors v juniors. The amount spent to gain a license sometimes gains mythical status amongst Junior fans, as does the amount of SFA handouts.

I was at Beith yesterday and I would say 2 or 3 gates like yesterday would wipe out any SFA money Whitehill got last season. Our bar income is more significant than any handouts (but I can't speak for other clubs).

We're probably one of the bigger clubs in the LL but some weeks the gate money hardly pays the officials, which incidentally are dearer in the LL, and 3 officials is mandatory. However I realise that adds fuel to the Juniors argument about the LL being full of diddy clubs.

As far as playing standards and crowds goes, the LL is probably in its rightful place below League 2 if it wasn't for the presence of the 160 or so Junior clubs to muddy the waters.

 

For the record I've said many times that I'm not into this whole divisive seniors v juniors thing. My club are bang in the middle of junior country and we play them in friendlies and transfer players back and forth. They're just clubs run by decent people just like ours. Whitehill happen to be in the senior setup because, rightly or wrongly, that's what the committee chose in 1979 or thereabouts when we stepped up from Juvenile.

I have to say the worst parochialism is over in Ayrshire and some parts of the Glasgow area where people like Isa have never been out of Ayrshire and think clubs in the East are all middle class 

[WaffenThinMint]

So the floundering Gala Fairydean, Vale of Leithen and Selkirk are not enough? The region does not need another club at level 5. HRA's onfield record of being one of Scotland's worst clubs in a generation makes them prime candidates to get up on sporting merit and that alone.

 

None of the applicants make the league stronger. CSS - an amateur team from an area that already has 5 other teams.

 

Hawick Royal Albert are the derby rivals of Gala Fairydean Rovers (note name, wretch!) - so having them both in the same division once more would certainly be a plus factor from the point of view of local interest as the Gala - Hawick rivalry is one that extends well beyond football. A Hawick Royal Albert with the possibility of one day becoming a national league side is a far more tantalizing prospect for local football fans than their current sorry state.

 

The converse to that is of course whether HRA are fit enough for that. It may well be that their situation is similar to that of the other Royal Albert which in the 1920s gave them their name, and who joined the infamous Scottish Division 3 because they'd little choice if they wanted to avoid a slow lingering death & have any chance of a future. However unless they improve off the field & on the field enough to justify their inclusion, that is not going to happen. For that they need money, & I for one don't know where that's going to come from.

 

I am in full agreement that Civil Service Strollers should be kept out - no works teams, least of all one that's had the rules bent for them by the footballing authorities time and time again to appease governmental mandarins.