Team 16?

[WaffenThinMint]

1 hour ago, Hillonearth said:

In my defence, my original post was only rambling to the extent I was trying to address your initial stream of consciousness online breakdown.

1. It should be evident - should be - that a grade with the sheer amount of members the Juniors do will find it more difficult -maybe in the end it will prove to be impossible - to adopt a one size fits all approach - Pollok have not much in common with Buckie Rovers to give an extreme example. And quoting the Spice Girls suggests your cultural taste ends roughly ten years after your knowledge of the Juniors does.

2. So, basically what you're advocating is cherry-picking a dozen sides or so and f**k the rest? Really worked out for the EoS League, that did...

3. You made the point that facilities were a crucial factor in dwindling attendances, not me. If they really were, there would be new-build stadiums filled to capacity. They're not.

4. I've already stated I wouldn't be comfortable if my club went down that route, but "lower orders?" Really?

5. You've evidently got access to the accounts of the 159 clubs I haven't seen. Either that or you're dealing in assumptions.

6. A grand total of THREE games were moved. See the thread over on the Juniors forum for all you need to know.

 

There wasn't any "breakdown" on my part - nice try.

After all, it's not my failing grade trying to dictate terms to those that have left them behind now, is it?

1. It should be evident - should be - that a grade with the sheer amount of members the Juniors do will find it more difficult -maybe in the end it will prove to be impossible - to adopt a one size fits all approach - Pollok have not much in common with Buckie Rovers to give an extreme example. And quoting the Spice Girls suggests your cultural taste ends roughly ten years after your knowledge of the Juniors does.

So you're now admitting the Juniors - as they stand - cannot reform themselves in a manner that will please all their members. Yet here we find Junior fundamentalists lecturing another grade on how they ought to reform in order to accommodate those who cannot even agree among themselves? Oh dear.

Quoting the Spice Girls is what is known in the trade as a joke - something the Juniors forum section has problems grasping the subtle nuances of since you are incapable of starting a joke thread without it being scrubbed by the mods before 24 hours was even up.

2. So, basically what you're advocating is cherry-picking a dozen sides or so and f**k the rest? Really worked out for the EoS League, that did...

And again, no one is arguing for football Darwinism. But a set up such as the Juniors which encourages clubs to spend money solely on players at the expense of long term development on & off the field produces exactly the sort of "survival of the fittest" you are so against. In any case, there already is cherry-picking going on in the Juniors - it's called the Superleagues, in case you have not noticed.

But changing the set up to enforce minimum ground & facilities requirements within the higher echelons of the Juniors may stop the nonsense of sugar daddies coming in, spunking money on random clubs for players before buggering off once they get bored which is the bane of Junior football. Events at Largs Thistle are the shining example of "doing it right" - alas, they are the exception that tested the rule.

As for the EoS, as they've been predicting its demise since 1923, the smart money is on it surviving & flourishing much the same way as it has got over numerous shocks & traumas before.

3. You made the point that facilities were a crucial factor in dwindling attendances, not me. If they really were, there would be new-build stadiums filled to capacity. They're not.

They're a crucial factor in arresting decline. Hence the reason we can all be confident that Irvine Meadow will bounce back from their current monumental difficulties whereas others will not be so fortunate. Moreover, it means they are more able to generate revenue via renting out for other uses.

4. I've already stated I wouldn't be comfortable if my club went down that route, but "lower orders?" Really?

Really. People who think a Junior football ground is only of any use to them as a place to chant pseudo-political songs, wave inappropriate flags & behave in a threatening manner to rival supporters & rival teams for the sole reason they're more likely to get away with it than at Celtic Park are vermin who have no place at ANY football ground - end of.

If this is what certain clubs have to pander to in order to survive, the Juniors & football in general would be better off without them.

5. You've evidently got access to the accounts of the 159 clubs I haven't seen. Either that or you're dealing in assumptions.

The proof in the pudding is in the eating - or rather in what fans are supposed to accept in terms of facilities.

6. A grand total of THREE games were moved. See the thread over on the Juniors forum for all you need to know.

Whereas a grand total of no games were moved by the Lowlands. Nor for that matter back in their days as EoS/SoS members having to face such matters as the Hearts/Hibs derby, the QoS/Gretna derby, etc. Says it all about the Juniors that any of them have to rearrange matches because some of their commitee members & fans are more interested in Scotland's Shame than their own supposed clubs, doesn't it? Just let that sink in.

[itzdrk]

I just don't see any sensible reason why the lowland league would have to change format from how it is, a semi national league is an ideal stepping stone to going the whole way. I could however understand levels below being West/East especially since it is already East/South.

[calmac25]

You seem to have a lazy Graham Spiers-esque view of the grade which might have rung true in the mid-eighties, but bears little relation to what's actually been going on since. Granted, I can think of a few sides that haven't moved with the times, but as I said before, that's more due to individual circumstances - it's just daft to try and put 160 clubs in the same pigeonhole due to your prejudices.

The loony joons column in the record seems to be backing Waffin this morning!

LOONY JOONS: NO PLACE LIKE HOME FOR JUNIOR CLUBS

DRESSING rooms with gaping holes in the wall, doo cots on the terraces, toilets which haven’t flushed in years and enclosures which could hardly be more crumbly if they'd been built by Mary Berry.

Welcome to the wacky world of junior football!

I might not have achieved an awful lot in 20 years playing non league but I’ve encountered facilities which would make even Mark Renton from Trainspotting wince.

And in a peculiar way, I love it.

Of course a large number of grounds meet a standard which would not be out of place in the SPFL.

But junior football stadiums are stories in themselves and more often than not say a lot about the club they house.

I couldn't imagine having to groundshare with anyone. Even if Johnstone Burgh's neighbours might have shinier facilities than our own Keanie Park.

[non_sequitur]

16 hours ago, WaffenThinMint said:

Ahem:

Was wondering when you were going to turn up, seeing as a fifth of all your posts have been nodding dog posts to anything & everything Burnie Man says, inbetween bitching about Tranent Juniors & bleating "Juniors aw ra way" at every opportunity - curious behaviour for a supposed Burnisland fan, but never mind.

But to put your post about "plastic pitches" into a Junior context, let's have it straight from the horses mouths:

 

Aye really son ive never spoke to you oan here before and its a wee bit sad you trawl thru ma posts to have a go at me take a look at yersel ffs  You hate the junior but cannae keep away fae their forum and make stuff up to try and look clever ffs I watch a load of junior games as I cannae get tae the Shippy very often how many games do you go to, nane I bet

Hillonearth has you sussed oot for spouting garbage id gie up and let adults have a chat aboot it

 

 

 

[WaffenThinMint]

2 hours ago, calmac25 said:

The loony joons column in the record seems to be backing Waffin this morning!

LOONY JOONS: NO PLACE LIKE HOME FOR JUNIOR CLUBS

DRESSING rooms with gaping holes in the wall, doo cots on the terraces, toilets which haven’t flushed in years and enclosures which could hardly be more crumbly if they'd been built by Mary Berry.

Welcome to the wacky world of junior football!

I might not have achieved an awful lot in 20 years playing non league but I’ve encountered facilities which would make even Mark Renton from Trainspotting wince.

And in a peculiar way, I love it.

Of course a large number of grounds meet a standard which would not be out of place in the SPFL.

But junior football stadiums are stories in themselves and more often than not say a lot about the club they house.

I couldn't imagine having to groundshare with anyone. Even if Johnstone Burgh's neighbours might have shinier facilities than our own Keanie Park.

That part of the article tagged onto the bottom of piece seems like they've lifted something from the Paisley Daily Express & pasted it in as filler.

Had to wince at the part reading "of course a large number of grounds meet a standard which would not be out of place in the SPFL." - erm Auchinleck Talbot, Irvine Meadow, Linlithgow Rose, Sauchie, maybe Whitletts Vics, maybe Ashfield and Petershill, Bo'ness once they've got their ground fixed... & then who? Eight (& as things stand realistically only four) out of almost 150 isn't exactly a large number.

Of much more interest was the confirmation straight from the horses mouths that the rumours, winks & nudges that a Clydebank new ground paid for by the fans & outside sympathisers had been approved by the council over in Faifley was indeed a load of hot air & instead they'll still be sharing Holm Park with Yoker. All that's happening is council refurbishment of the existing rag & bone yard.

CLYDEBANK boss Budgie McGhie is in chirpy mood as he looks forward to the Bankies finally losing the nomads tag. 

BUDGIE McGHIE fondly remembers going head-to-head with Davie Cooper and Graeme Souness as Clydebank ruffled the feathers of Scotland's top sides at their old Kilbowie home.

McGhie was a key member of the Bankies’ team which won promotion to the Premier League in 1985 and went on to enjoy two seasons in the top flight.

Times have changed dramatically in the 30 years since.

The Bankies were left homeless when the Steedman family sold their iconic ground in 1997 and they ultimately went out of business in 2002 before being reformed as a junior club a year later.

But now McGhie, who has been at the helm since their reincarnation 13 years ago, can sense the beginning of something special once again.

After years spent as lodgers in the local area - most recently at Yoker's Holm Park - the Clydebank faithful can finally look forward to having a place they can call home rather than just Holm.

West Dunbartonshire Council this week gave the green light to plans that will see the regeneration of Holm Park as a community stadium as well as a permanent base for both Yoker and the Bankies.

And, for McGhie, knowing his club will finally have a home for the first time since they left Kilbowie is more important than any piece of silverware sitting in a cabinet for a temporary spell.

He said: "This is great news for the club. I was lucky enough to play for Clydebank when we were in the Premier League and Kilbowie was a huge part of that story.

"Playing against guys like Butcher, Cooper, Souness and Wilkins will live long in my memory and, while we didn't have an awful lot of success against them, it was still a special time to be a Bankie.

"Winning promotion is the best memory I have. For a part time team to be playing against Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen on a regular basis and filling Kilbowie was incredible. The build-up to those games was astonishing.

"I have a huge attachment to this club. I know how the supporters felt at the end of our days as a senior club. It was a painful time for everyone involved.

"We've been through a lot since then. We came back as a junior side in 2003 but a lot of people won't realise how hard it has been not having our own ground.

"It's a feeling of having no identity and no real home.

"From day one we wanted to establish Clydebank as a top junior club but without our own ground that was very, very difficult and that is why this week's announcement is so significant.

"All going well it will help establish us at the top and provide some security.

"Hopefully it will allow us to move the club on a level."

A statement which raises the question: Does McGhie ever invisage Clydebank joining the Scottish Football pyramid via the Lowland League in a bid to win back their senior status?

So far no junior side has made the leap but the Bankies were one of the names linked with a switch to the newly-formed fifth tier of Scottish football when it was established three years ago.

"There are some within the club who would like that but there are just as many who are probably happy for us to remain junior," he said.

"It's a decision which needs to be made when the situation arises.

"I haven't given it much thought to be honest. I'm focused on trying to win promotion back to the Premier League in the juniors.

"We came so close last year which was frustrating and we must try and go one better this time. We may face the challenge of having to play away from Holm Park if the redevelopment starts early but that's not a major issue.

"It's just a challenge we will have to meet head on if, and when, it occurs."

Cast your minds back to last year, & we were told that there was a new ground being build for the club at Faifley:

http://www.clydebankpost.co.uk/news/roundup/articles/2015/04/23/530325-plans-presented-for-new-clydebank-fc-stadium-in-faifley/

Another magnificent Juniors moment of promising mountains and delivering molehills. Ho hum. Would be lying if I said I wasn't very disappointed by all this - think we can kiss goodbye now to any prospects of the Bankies stepping up to the Lowland League & challenging to getting their old national league place back ever now, that ship has definitely sailed if this is the best they can do.

 

 

[calmac25]

Had to wince at the part reading "of course a large number of grounds meet a standard which would not be out of place in the SPFL." - erm Auchinleck Talbot, Irvine Meadow, Linlithgow Rose, Sauchie, maybe Whitletts Vics, maybe Ashfield and Petershill, Bo'ness once they've got their ground fixed... & then who? Eight (& as things stand realistically only four) out of almost 150 isn't exactly a large number.

I'd add newtongrange, Kelty and hill o beath to your list but current spfl levels and acceptable (licencing) standards are still different things.

Looking at pictures of hill o beath compared to cowdenbeaths ground I can't understand why cowdenbeath don't want to move along the road with their neighbours!

There are a lot more junior grounds then 8 that have good facilities for their grade though the junior fa should really be setting baseline levels of facilities rather than leaving it to the clubs conscience to decide if they should provide a toilet or not

 

[gaz5]

They hire it from NLC who own it, but I believe they're the primary tenant.

NLC own the stadium, CC funded the 4G, I believe.

[The Mantis]

On 16 September 2016 at 08:11, calmac25 said:

Clubs with licencing get payments of around £10k per year plus get more per round in the Scottish cup than unlicensed clubs. I'm not sure if that includes the qualifiers. So there would be some financial advantage for the licenced clubs.

I'd like to see the Scottish cup opened up to anyone who got into a new East/west lowland league but all payments given in grants that could only go towards obtaining a licence

I can tell you for sure that licensed clubs got £4000 last season at xmas.

Payment for the Scottish, round by round, is the same for all clubs and is actually appearance money, i.e. 'big' clubs such as Talbot can actually make more money by playing through the prelim rounds (plus gate money) than clubs like the LL champions etc who enter at round 2 and do not get paid for earlier rounds.

[Burnie_man]

3 hours ago, ThatBoyRonaldo said:

I wouldn't be as quick to write off the LL as some in this thread. It's only a few years old, over time the mixing of teams between T4 and T5 and the coverage the league will get will embed the league a little better. Re accommodating the juniors in any unified non-league set up though, surely you've got to imagine that an arrangement which parachutes incoming junior clubs into positions ahead of existing senior clubs is unrealistic? I think if junior teams want a unified pyramid they're probably going to have to accept 5-10 years for teams to find their level.

Not sure anyone is suggesting parachuting Junior clubs ahead of existing LL clubs. The way I see it, you split existing LL clubs between a LL West and LL East, invite licenced clubs sitting outwith the LL to join if they wish, and then open it up to Juniors to take-up the remaining berths with relegation from both leagues into the existing West and East Superleagues.  In the meantime, the EoS and SoS is merged into the existing Junior set-up. You then have yourself an integrated Pyramid, and two Lowland Leagues which are probably stronger than the existing single LL and more fairly represent the spread and desnity of clubs south of the Tay.

3 hours ago, ThatBoyRonaldo said:

Also, I'm a little late on this, but 'the pretend ethnicity pretensions of the lower orders' is an absolutely bizarre comment from WaffenThinMinter. Total crank.

Yip.

[Burnie_man]

18 minutes ago, ThatBoyRonaldo said:

I see - the impression I had got was that people were proposing an East LL and West LL including top junior clubs, where the EoS and SoS remained in existence below them, and it was the Junior set-up that was merged in below that rather than vice versa. What you've said would make more sense. 

 

 

There's a whole host of different ways you can attempt integration, that's just one example.

However, it makes absolute sense to finally integrate the EoSFL into the Juniors, that might happen anyway by the back door with clubs leaving. It may not happen voluntarily with the carrot of a Scottish Cup place on offer to Leith/LTHV for the foreseeable future. Same goes for the SoSFL, but that's slightly different as the clubs at the top end are licenced therefore promotion to the existing LL remains a real possibility for most clubs, which would disappear if they integrated into the West Juniors.

At the end of the day, it needs the SJFA, LL, HL, SPFL and SFA all back round the table again to talk specifically about the future direction of the Pyramid. Maybe it needs in independent arbitrator not riven with self interest to look at it dispassionately and provide recommendations.

[newcastle broon]

2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

There's a whole host of different ways you can attempt integration, that's just one example.

However, it makes absolute sense to finally integrate the EoSFL into the Juniors, that might happen anyway by the back door with clubs leaving. It may not happen voluntarily with the carrot of a Scottish Cup place on offer to Leith/LTHV for the foreseeable future. Same goes for the SoSFL, but that's slightly different as the clubs at the top end are licenced therefore promotion to the existing LL remains a real possibility for most clubs, which would disappear if they integrated into the West Juniors.

At the end of the day, it needs the SJFA, LL, HL, SPFL and SFA all back round the table again to talk specifically about the future direction of the Pyramid. Maybe it needs in independent arbitrator not riven with self interest to look at it dispassionately and provide recommendations.

How did team 16 get on the Scottish Cup on Saturday Burnie_man ? 

 

[Burnie_man]

13 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

How did team 16 get on the Scottish Cup on Saturday Burnie_man ? 

 

Here comes my shadow!   dunno what you mean.

[Burnie_man]

14 hours ago, The Mantis said:

I can tell you for sure that licensed clubs got £4000 last season at xmas.

Payment for the Scottish, round by round, is the same for all clubs and is actually appearance money, i.e. 'big' clubs such as Talbot can actually make more money by playing through the prelim rounds (plus gate money) than clubs like the LL champions etc who enter at round 2 and do not get paid for earlier rounds.

So how much do clubs get if they start in the 1st Prelim Round? is it £1k per Prelim round, so win the two Prelim rounds you pocket £2k?, win the First round proper and you have £2k plus whatever the "appearance" money is for First round?

[gaz5]

There's no money in the prelims outside of a gate receipt split as far as I'm aware. Prize money starts at 2000 for all teams in first round proper, then goes 4000, 6000 (cumulative) for rounds 2 & 3. So any non league club getting to round 3 gets 12000.

[newcastle broon]

1 hour ago, Burnie_man said:

Here comes my shadow!   dunno what you mean.

Sarcasm gets ye naewhere!

Didn't think it interested ye

 just checked if they get through a replay they get a home tie against Berwick Rangers in the next round.  

Good luck to them. 

[Burnie_man]

Sarcasm gets ye naewhere!

Didn't think it interested ye [emoji14]

 just checked if they get through a replay they get a home tie against Berwick Rangers in the next round.  

Good luck to them. 

Far too obtuse for me!

[The Mantis]

2 hours ago, gaz5 said:

There's no money in the prelims outside of a gate receipt split as far as I'm aware. Prize money starts at 2000 for all teams in first round proper, then goes 4000, 6000 (cumulative) for rounds 2 & 3. So any non league club getting to round 3 gets 12000.

Aye sorry, you're right about rounds 1,2,3 but Whitehill have never played in the prelim rounds so I never knew that paid nowt.

[WaffenThinMint]

14 hours ago, ThatBoyRonaldo said:

I wouldn't be as quick to write off the LL as some in this thread. It's only a few years old, over time the mixing of teams between T4 and T5 and the coverage the league will get will embed the league a little better. Re accommodating the juniors in any unified non-league set up though, surely you've got to imagine that an arrangement which parachutes incoming junior clubs into positions ahead of existing senior clubs is unrealistic? I think if junior teams want a unified pyramid they're probably going to have to accept 5-10 years for teams to find their level.

Also, I'm a little late on this, but 'the pretend ethnicity pretensions of the lower orders' is an absolutely bizarre comment from WaffenThinMinter. Total crank.

Hate to break it to you, but nobody's writing off the LL; save Burnie_Man & a handful of similar losers from the Junior forums under the delusion that Scottish football - never mind the LL - cares anymore about what the Juniors may, one day, think about future cooperation with other levels when they finally manage to get their acts together to agree on a single collective thought (early forecasts for this being circa 2099, although some regard this as over optimistic). They had their chance & they blow it. End of.

As for my comments about St Roch's, its the epitome of a club that survives (just!) on the back of the local feral creatures of Royston's*** delusion that pretending to be Irish somehow makes their locality & their lives somehow more exotic & less pathetic than it is .

^{**or The Garngad as the real ultra Sham Irish Weegies like to call it. Apparantly the new name was all part of the Orange Masonic Iluminati conspiracy or whatever to wipe out their "culture" & stop Celtic winning the treble, or whatever...}

Stil, good to see your humiliation on GD talking about subjects you hadn't a clue about hasn't bothered you that much that you've come stalking me over here looking for "revenge". Back in your box.

Which leads nicely to the reappearence of...

11 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Yip.

Makes an arse of himself in this thread, starts calling everyone names for doing so before pissing off in a huff, goes to the Too Many Clubs thread (I was on long before he turned up, before you ask...) spouting much the same bilge as on here, gets his arse & other parts handed back to him as those outside of the Lowlands League section tend not to be as nice or patient, starts calling everyone names for doing so before pissing off in a huff, returns here for the inevitable more of the same.

'plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose...'

[Burnie_man]

10 hours ago, The Mantis said:

Aye sorry, you're right about rounds 1,2,3 but Whitehill have never played in the prelim rounds so I never knew that paid nowt.

So we think that elimination in the Preliminary rounds means no cash payment at all? My understanding upto this point was that you got a flat payment regardless of whether you were eliminated in the First or Second Prelim Rounds or progressed to the First round, it was the same payment.

[sureiknow]

25 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

So we think that elimination in the Preliminary rounds means no cash payment at all? My understanding upto this point was that you got a flat payment regardless of whether you were eliminated in the First or Second Prelim Rounds or progressed to the First round, it was the same payment.

As fair as I'm aware there is a payment paid in the preliminary round.

The Oracle will soon inform us