honestly united Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 Wouldn't the simplest solution to all this be for the LL to say to the Juniors that the winners of both super leagues can enter the end of year play off for the promotion spot along with the EoS and SoS winners? That way the juniors can stay in their own system if they want to, but any ambitious teams could get promoted if they so wished, if they didn't they can pull a "Brora" in the play off.They would just have to suck up being classed as a lower level but essentially that is what they are anyway. In addition relegated clubs could then chose which league to drop back into. Or is that just to easy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VodkaTap Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 1 hour ago, Burnie_man said: The simple statement of intent was already given 4-5 years ago, the Juniors would consider participation if the three region system remained intact. To the best of my knowledge that has not changed. Until such times as the LL/SFA/SPFL indicate that they intend to move to that system, then there is nothing further to add as far as the SJFA are concerned. If the authorities are happy with a single LL division then that's it, there will be no all encompassing Pyramid. The SJFA are not going to make a statement that they will only become involved if the LL reforms, they have already made that clear and they wont make fools of themselves by doing so only to be told "No, the LL are happy as they are". The fact is, as much as I would like to see integration, the Juniors don't need the LL if there is no change. They carry as is, and perhaps more EoS clubs make the move over to the Juniors and we continue to watch from afar. So it's the LL or even the LL clubs themselves that need to initiate change, perhaps via informal discussions with the SJFA to test the water, but if they are happy as it is then that wont happen. However, I'd question how happy everyone connected with the LL are, we've seen some grumbles on here, I've also heard a few over the last few years, mainly down to quality of teams coming in and lack of fans. That might become louder if Edusport gain promotion. These comments seems to get to the crux of the issue and why nothing will change. You are happy to quote views and positions taken 4-5 years ago. I am also sure that attitudes within the junior ranks have changed towards further integration and i think the relative success of the LL has much to do with it. What is the problem with restating the junior position ?? - it might engender a put up or shut up scenario and either give it the kickstart it so badly needs or kick it into the long grass for many a year ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newcastle broon Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 17 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: I'm not going to name names on a public forum, but you yourself were grumbling a few pages back in a moment of epiphany! The East Stirling thread has fans mumbling about lack of away support. Others suggest that Edusport winning promotion is not the answer, neither is BSC playing in Alloa. Your last sentence is correct, we need someone to address the whole issue. Ideally that would be the SFA, but they are not interested, if they were then they would be doing their upmost to bring in 160+ clubs into the pyramid. They're doing diddly squat. I never knew my quotes on here would be representing the LL I'll say it again since when was trophies won wi fans,haven't had that one brought up for a few pages now,last I knew trophies are won on a fitba park! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffenThinMint Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 10 hours ago, bendan said: Didn't the SJFA propose a some kind of junior equivalent of the LL around the time of its formation? And didn't they basically refuse to support any route back to the juniors other than from the bottom? Yes, which was the point any remote sympathy I had for their position went out the window. A combination of not being able to organise their current commitments - let alone take on any others - plus none wanted to risk no longer being top dog anymore of their own little empire meant the whole proposal turned out to be nothing but hot air. That however is not the point. Having failed to filibust the Lowland League, their next actions were to set about trying to destroy it by setting up a direct competitor they'd shown zero interest in ever setting up before - along with warning any Juniors tempted to the wiles of the Lowlands that they'd start at the bottom of the Junior pile if it all didn't work out. It proved all the Juniors will ever be interested in as far as "working" with other parts of Scottish football is getting whatever they can get out of it (preferably at their Senior "rivals" expenses) & caring not one toss about the long term good of the crumbling Scottish game: no matter what the empty rhetoric. As such the time for "negotiating" is over. Individual Junior clubs should be left to apply to join on the Lowland League's terms & only take part in SFA run competitions if they're licensed clubs - and leave the 99% of the Juniors only interested in the licensing of their "social clubs" to come to glory or grief within their own system as fate determines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 24 minutes ago, newcastle broon said: I never knew my quotes on here would be representing the LL I'll say it again since when was trophies won wi fans,haven't had that one brought up for a few pages now,last I knew trophies are won on a fitba park! "can I find a suitable excuse for my team and go junior, having seen the Shire fans last week staying well behind enjoying themselves spending their hard earned behind the bar, teams like Bonnyrigg, Nitten, Penicuik et al would probably do the same at our place. If that's the way other teams are going in the Scottish then we should be thinking aboot it!" Your words! I guess without fans, the tills in your bar wont ring and the money to sign players is less, and you suggest that if WW can keep their licence they should consider moving to the Juniors to enjoy larger attendances. A fair point, and shows that not everyone is happy with the way things are with the current set-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VodkaTap Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 13 minutes ago, WaffenThinMint said: Yes, which was the point any remote sympathy I had for their position went out the window. A combination of not being able to organise their current commitments - let alone take on any others - plus none wanted to risk no longer being top dog anymore of their own little empire meant the whole proposal turned out to be nothing but hot air. That however is not the point. Having failed to filibust the Lowland League, their next actions were to set about trying to destroy it by setting up a direct competitor they'd shown zero interest in ever setting up before - along with warning any Juniors tempted to the wiles of the Lowlands that they'd start at the bottom of the Junior pile if it all didn't work out. It proved all the Juniors will ever be interested in as far as "working" with other parts of Scottish football is getting whatever they can get out of it (preferably at their Senior "rivals" expenses) & caring not one toss about the long term good of the crumbling Scottish game: no matter what the empty rhetoric. As such the time for "negotiating" is over. Individual Junior clubs should be left to apply to join on the Lowland League's terms & only take part in SFA run competitions if they're licensed clubs - and leave the 99% of the Juniors only interested in the licensing of their "social clubs" to come to glory or grief within their own system as fate determines. Oh dear, How could I have forgotten all about this !! So it seems that the SJFA have more than one statement of how they would like to see the future of non-league football develop. Rather than have then restate their position it looks like they need to state which is the current view they hold now. Maybe after we know that, they can start negotiations and maybe put in place a system that would allow a smooth and easy transition to a fully integrated setup. But I suspect nothing will happen. They will continue to carp on about how poor the LL is with few fans and continue to proclaim their superiority in all things non-league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 29 minutes ago, VodkaTap said: These comments seems to get to the crux of the issue and why nothing will change. You are happy to quote views and positions taken 4-5 years ago. I am also sure that attitudes within the junior ranks have changed towards further integration and i think the relative success of the LL has much to do with it. What is the problem with restating the junior position ?? - it might engender a put up or shut up scenario and either give it the kickstart it so badly needs or kick it into the long grass for many a year ! To repeat, until someone indicates that they are willing to consider reviewing the set-up of the LL, then the SJFA will not say anything further. I have explained the reasons as I see it and the SJFA Exec Committee wont change their position unless member clubs ask for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawick2016 Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 A lot of talk on here about 'Team 16' as the thread title goes. Whats everyones early thoughts on Hawick and Strollers being introduced? Both have had indifferent starts and funnily enough have drawn each other in the scottish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 Personally I'd ignore WTM as he waffles nonsense most of the time. The SJFA Exec Committee proposed a joint West/East Superleague, this was roundly rejected by clubs and never even got to the serious discussion stage, this has been mooted in the past long before the LL existed, it was unpopular then as it is now. The three regions as we have currently is what clubs want, and the clubs are the SJFA. Nobody is carping or proclaiming superiority, let's try and move away from a them v us position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VodkaTap Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 41 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: Personally I'd ignore WTM as he waffles nonsense most of the time. The SJFA Exec Committee proposed a joint West/East Superleague, this was roundly rejected by clubs and never even got to the serious discussion stage, this has been mooted in the past long before the LL existed, it was unpopular then as it is now. The three regions as we have currently is what clubs want, and the clubs are the SJFA. Nobody is carping or proclaiming superiority, let's try and move away from a them v us position. Nobody is claiming superiority - seriously ??? We are constantly being told that the LL will never be as good as the top junior leagues !! Since as you say,the 3 region setup is what the clubs want then why are we having this discussion ?? To my mind both setups now have entrenched positions and nothing will change that voluntarily. Only an external body might induce a change. I really don't think there is the appetite to move to a single non-league setup at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 23 minutes ago, VodkaTap said: Nobody is claiming superiority - seriously ??? We are constantly being told that the LL will never be as good as the top junior leagues !! Since as you say,the 3 region setup is what the clubs want then why are we having this discussion ?? To my mind both setups now have entrenched positions and nothing will change that voluntarily. Only an external body might induce a change. I really don't think there is the appetite to move to a single non-league setup at the moment. I'm certainly not proclaiming superiority so let's not get bogged down on that. Is the LL really entrenched in its views? it's only been going 3 seasons so if that's the case it's surprising and disappointing. It will come to a head sooner or later, various reasons for that, EoS clubs continuing to jump to the Juniors, club licencing being used only for Scottish Cup entry, the HL being a closed shop with licenced clubs unable to get in, SPFL clubs raising concerns. It will be something, and hopefully sooner than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VodkaTap Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 2 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: I'm certainly not proclaiming superiority so let's not get bogged down on that. Is the LL really entrenched in its views? it's only been going 3 seasons so if that's the case it's surprising and disappointing. It will come to a head sooner or later, various reasons for that, EoS clubs continuing to jump to the Juniors, club licencing being used only for Scottish Cup entry, the HL being a closed shop with licenced clubs unable to get in, SPFL clubs raising concerns. It will be something, and hopefully sooner than later. I note that in all of your comments you mentioned everyone involved, LL, HL, EOS, SPFL yet carefully avoided the one organisation with the most intransigent views Sorry - You have not convinced me that the juniors want to get involved with the LL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 The simple statement of intent was already given 4-5 years ago, the Juniors would consider participation if the three region system remained intact. To the best of my knowledge that has not changed.. That's abit of a rewrite surely.Was the phrase not 'sjfa structure' remained intact. With bells whistles and ridiculous archaic rules intact.The pyramid the sjfa said they'd consider was one where their leagues slotted underneath spfl, with no mandatory promotion, no integration with non-league seniors and no licencing, they were rightly told that wasn't going to happen and have basically done nothing apart from actively discouraging clubs from engagement with the pyramid structure since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 No re-writing at all, the starting pointing was that the SJFA structure remained intact ie West Region, East Region, North Region. The SJFA probably wanted to run “tier 5” south of the Tay, which would obviously be unacceptable to many. I’m guessing what they were angling for was for the EoS and SoS to slot into the existing West and East Regions, the North might have been cut loose and run by the HL , but that’s just speculation on my part, and I very much doubt they were insisting on their own rules remaining intact as well eg re-instatement, it was never mentioned during meetings with the clubs (which In was involved in). I doubt discussions even reached that level anyway, once it became clear it was two region, not three, the SJFA effectively took a back seat and rubbished the concept (wrongly). As for actively discouraging clubs from leaving to join the Pyramid, that does hold water and I was very critical of it at the time (still am), but it’s interesting to note that Linlithgow Rose went ahead and are now licenced, with Auchinleck Talbot going down that road as well, the two biggest Junior clubs. However again, we’re covering old ground which cannot be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 59 minutes ago, VodkaTap said: I note that in all of your comments you mentioned everyone involved, LL, HL, EOS, SPFL yet carefully avoided the one organisation with the most intransigent views Sorry - You have not convinced me that the juniors want to get involved with the LL I'm not sure I can be accused of not mentioning the SJFA/Juniors lol! You don't agree with my opinion on who should make the first move, that's fine. I'm not here to convince anyone, just putting forward my opinions on this forum, however you did say that our opinions overall are not that far apart, I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab B Nesbit Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 1 hour ago, VodkaTap said: I note that in all of your comments you mentioned everyone involved, LL, HL, EOS, SPFL yet carefully avoided the one organisation with the most intransigent views Sorry - You have not convinced me that the juniors want to get involved with the LL Have you not noticed all the junior fans in here desperate to join the LL. Oh hang on a minute it's just one who's grass is 3 foot high while he patrols P and B looking for LL fans showing the slightest discontent and refreshing the East of Scotland website in case anybody with no hope of a license joins the Juniors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 26 minutes ago, Rab B Nesbit said: Have you not noticed all the junior fans in here desperate to join the LL. Oh hang on a minute it's just one who's grass is 3 foot high while he patrols P and B looking for LL fans showing the slightest discontent and refreshing the East of Scotland website in case anybody with no hope of a license joins the Juniors Well Newcastle Broon is desperate for WW to join the Juniors, so I must be onto something...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpek Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 Haha,great debate guys keep it going Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab B Nesbit Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 12 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: Well Newcastle Broon is desperate for WW to join the Juniors, so I must be onto something...... Oops I forgot about Newky ... Newky you better have a good response to this one ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newcastle broon Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 15 minutes ago, Burnie_man said: Well Newcastle Broon is desperate for WW to join the Juniors, so I must be onto something...... Who am I to say though, hardly desperate,I travel wi a 200 miles round trip every 2nd week just to Rosewell,so it doesn't really matter a Donald duck whether it's a junior team or LL side theyre playing against Again I'm certainly no a spokesman or representative of ww Did you answer my question by the way do crowds win trophies a simple yes or no will suffice please......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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