League reconstruction: Let's hear your view

[Burnie_man]

They don't bypass 160+ clubs all they bypass is the east of scotland or south of Scotland league as the juniors is a different setup. You can't sit on your perch in the juniors refusing to come over and join then claim that other clubs are bypassing you if they do join.

It's that kind of attitude that gets us to where we are today.

There are more Junior clubs than all senior clubs put together, understand that and then understand that your cannot have a credible Pyramid by ignoring them,or refusing to listen to their views on the matter.

Yes, the SJFA were major culprits in the Juniors not being part of it from the beginning, but then so were others, however that's the past, Scottish football needs to look forwards to where it wants to be and the Juniors are a major part of that.

[Bankies Alive]

I suspect that it suits the SFA to have those 160 clubs separate under a different body so that they don't have to split their money more thinly.

Its a total farce that clubs with no support are deemed to be more worthy of SFA hand outs than clubs with hundreds of fans.

Its true that the majority of Junior clubs don't have many fans as well but why does that mean that they should be starved of funding whilst the chosen few get cash lobbed at them just because they`re based in Dumfries and Galloway?

The area with the biggest population base in Scotland has no "senior" feeder league into this mythical pyramid system!

There are Highland,East and South Leagues but none in the West?

[HTG]

I suspect that it suits the SFA to have those 160 clubs separate under a different body so that they don't have to split their money more thinly.

Its a total farce that clubs with no support are deemed to be more worthy of SFA hand outs than clubs with hundreds of fans.

Its true that the majority of Junior clubs don't have many fans as well but why does that mean that they should be starved of funding whilst the chosen few get cash lobbed at them just because they`re based in Dumfries and Galloway?

The area with the biggest population base in Scotland has no "senior" feeder league into this mythical pyramid system!

There are Highland,East and South Leagues but none in the West?

I doubt if EK, BSC or CC see themselves as in an East or South league but the bones of your post are correct.

Our current pyramid engages 18 teams drawn from across the relatively unpopulated Highland and Grampian regions. It engages 3 teams drawn from the entirety of Lanarkshire, Greater Glasgow and Ayrshire.

If anyone wants to understand what is wrong with the current pyramid model, they need only consider these simple stats.

It should be the responsibility of the governing body to develop solutions which deliver a representative pyramid. But they won't. Because nobody has the balls. The SFA are complete shitebags - or they are offering a very passable impersonation of shitebags.

Edited January 3, 2016 by HTG

[edinabear]

RE: Lowland League vs Juniors. Its quite clear that mistakes have been made from the SFA when establishing the LL. Although I can see some logic in admitting University sides. Managed correctly there is potential for the university sides to get big crowds from their student base, look at American college sports for example. Also they were crying out for a West cost presence and again the likes of EK, BSC and CC in the right circumstances could go on to be successful clubs with a decent fanbases

Admitting Edusport would be an absolute disaster, run for rich French families to send their kids on a holiday camp, with no actual town base, they have zero potential for fans or any infrastructure.

All is not lost though and it would just take a couple of Junior sides to make the jump and perhaps seeing some SL2 sides taking the drop and we have a good league on our hands.

[HTG]

^^^ Fine as far as it goes but only if you judge a pyramid as stopping at a level below a national league (or 2 levels at a push). The governing body should be driving an integrated top to bottom pyramid but it looks like that simply can't be arsed.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

^^^ Fine as far as it goes but only if you judge a pyramid as stopping at a level below a national league (or 2 levels at a push). The governing body should be driving an integrated top to bottom pyramid but it looks like that simply can't be arsed.

Pretty much this, obviously scotland has its own challanges and difficulties and its not a simple as in big countries like england or germany, but how fuckin hard can it be? seriously pretty much everyone else has one yet we take years and years just to get play offs for promotion to spfl 2

[Wilky1878]

^^^ Fine as far as it goes but only if you judge a pyramid as stopping at a level below a national league (or 2 levels at a push). The governing body should be driving an integrated top to bottom pyramid but it looks like that simply can't be arsed.

But, how can we do that when the juniors are being stubborn I could almost guarantee if the juniors said they would take the plunge and actually tried to sit down and tell the spfl what they wanted a deal could be negotiated and a fully functioning pyramid could be achieved. After that discussions with amateurs could expand it even more but this can only be done with cooperation from the juniors who quite frankly do not want to cooperate

[HTG]

But, how can we do that when the juniors are being stubborn I could almost guarantee if the juniors said they would take the plunge and actually tried to sit down and tell the spfl what they wanted a deal could be negotiated and a fully functioning pyramid could be achieved. After that discussions with amateurs could expand it even more but this can only be done with cooperation from the juniors who quite frankly do not want to cooperate

Well for a start, North/South split is a nonsense way to start the regionalisation of the pyramid. An absolute nonsense.

The regionalisation has to recognise volumetrics in terms of the demographic map of Scotland.

I'd bet plenty of dollars on the juniors becoming a lot more interested if the thing was properly structured.

But then we'd very quickly see how stubborn the SPFL clubs would be. Remember that the SFA and SPFL wanted a NATIONAL conference under the SPFL. That's effectively a few clubs dictating the entire structure that hundreds of clubs below them need to fit into.

Everywhere you look you see self interest so there's no point in throwing all the shite at the juniors. They are culpable but the SPFL are more culpable in my view. The likes of Spartans and a few of the non league seniors came out smelling of roses. In the Highlands there is zero evidence that a licenced club could join the HFL - there is no mechanism through which to do so.

And just to show what the SFA were really made of they tried to adjust the licencing criteria AFTER Linlithgow had submitted their application. They then went on to amend it so that no matter how community focused you were or how well your club was run, you had to declare a commitment to a shite pyramid model or you were getting no licence. So the SFA would rather protect their own crap than encourage and engage with progressive junior clubs. This of course suits the dinosaur, green cheese junior teams to a tee. The SFA are doing more for that group by stifling the more ambitious teams.

Top job SFA, top job.

[parsforlife]

But then we'd very quickly see how stubborn the SPFL clubs would be. Remember that the SFA and SPFL wanted a NATIONAL conference under the SPFL. That's effectively a few clubs dictating the entire structure that hundreds of clubs below them need to fit into.

A stupid position, but there has been a concession here, one of several the spfl clubs have made, where's the concessions from the juniors, where's the engagement?

[edinabear]

Well for a start, North/South split is a nonsense way to start the regionalisation of the pyramid. An absolute nonsense.

The regionalisation has to recognise volumetrics in terms of the demographic map of Scotland.

I'd bet plenty of dollars on the juniors becoming a lot more interested if the thing was properly structured.

But then we'd very quickly see how stubborn the SPFL clubs would be. Remember that the SFA and SPFL wanted a NATIONAL conference under the SPFL. That's effectively a few clubs dictating the entire structure that hundreds of clubs below them need to fit into.

Everywhere you look you see self interest so there's no point in throwing all the shite at the juniors. They are culpable but the SPFL are more culpable in my view. The likes of Spartans and a few of the non league seniors came out smelling of roses. In the Highlands there is zero evidence that a licenced club could join the HFL - there is no mechanism through which to do so.

And just to show what the SFA were really made of they tried to adjust the licencing criteria AFTER Linlithgow had submitted their application. They then went on to amend it so that no matter how community focused you were or how well your club was run, you had to declare a commitment to a shite pyramid model or you were getting no licence. So the SFA would rather protect their own crap than encourage and engage with progressive junior clubs. This of course suits the dinosaur, green cheese junior teams to a tee. The SFA are doing more for that group by stifling the more ambitious teams.

Top job SFA, top job.

Some very valid points here. I'm just wondering what are the chances of Linlithgow Rose being the first club to move across? Did I read on here sometime ago that it was being considered? Would be an excellent addition

[HTG]

Some very valid points here. I'm just wondering what are the chances of Linlithgow Rose being the first club to move across? Did I read on here sometime ago that it was being considered? Would be an excellent addition

They won't move on their own. To be honest if they were going to do it, it would need to be this season to try and fill the last space. They won't do so without the approval of their members and they've not been asked.

There is no chance of them joining a lower level eitherso if the choice is LL2 then they'll stick with an environment which is extremely competitive.

If Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg, Kelty Hearts (moving in all the right directions in Fife - another barren area for the pyramid outside of the SPFL) and a few others were involved from the east then I think they'd jump tomorrow. Even better if they knew Ayrshire and Glasgow were coming in too. But Ayrshire seems to want a regional league in Ayrshire!

[parsforlife]

They won't move on their own. To be honest if they were going to do it, it would need to be this season to try and fill the last space. They won't do so without the approval of their members and they've not been asked.

There is no chance of them joining a lower level eitherso if the choice is LL2 then they'll stick with an environment which is extremely competitive.

If Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg, Kelty Hearts (moving in all the right directions in Fife - another barren area for the pyramid outside of the SPFL) and a few others were involved from the east then I think they'd jump tomorrow. Even better if they knew Ayrshire and Glasgow were coming in too. But Ayrshire seems to want a regional league in Ayrshire!

Burntisland are a tier 6 side.

[Wilky1878]

Well for a start, North/South split is a nonsense way to start the regionalisation of the pyramid. An absolute nonsense.

The regionalisation has to recognise volumetrics in terms of the demographic map of Scotland.

I'd bet plenty of dollars on the juniors becoming a lot more interested if the thing was properly structured.

But then we'd very quickly see how stubborn the SPFL clubs would be. Remember that the SFA and SPFL wanted a NATIONAL conference under the SPFL. That's effectively a few clubs dictating the entire structure that hundreds of clubs below them need to fit into.

Everywhere you look you see self interest so there's no point in throwing all the shite at the juniors. They are culpable but the SPFL are more culpable in my view. The likes of Spartans and a few of the non league seniors came out smelling of roses. In the Highlands there is zero evidence that a licenced club could join the HFL - there is no mechanism through which to do so.

And just to show what the SFA were really made of they tried to adjust the licencing criteria AFTER Linlithgow had submitted their application. They then went on to amend it so that no matter how community focused you were or how well your club was run, you had to declare a commitment to a shite pyramid model or you were getting no licence. So the SFA would rather protect their own crap than encourage and engage with progressive junior clubs. This of course suits the dinosaur, green cheese junior teams to a tee. The SFA are doing more for that group by stifling the more ambitious teams.

Top job SFA, top job.

I'm not saying that the spfl or SFA have been great in their dealing with this either. Infact, I'm not sure innit was on this thread or another that I slated them aswell but the juniors in no way want to cooperate or even compromise and instead want a their way or no way scenario. Anyway let's not just get into a senior/junior good guy/bad guy debate as that's the way all other regionalisation threads have went before becoming nothing more than a slagging match.

For what it's worth I think north/south is the best divide for the first tier of regionalisation as it bridges the gap a little before making the jump to a national league. I think it would be unfair to ask a team to go from playing teams only in the Lowland West area straight to a national structure.

The usual problem of borders does occur but although it would be a bit misshaped to start with a North/south divide could even itself out over time. It all depends on where you place the hypothetical border to begin with.

[HTG]

North South is ludicrous in my view. France goes to a 3 way split from the national league. It's completely sensible for Scotland. You'll be lucky if there is 20% of the population north of the Tay. So we can assume that the depth of a pyramid would follow similar lines. Even if you were to split the Lowlands in 2, you'd struggle to achieve a reasonable and fair spread of opportunity.

I'm not getting into a senior/junior argument - I want my club in the pyramid. But in this case, the juniors preferred model is bang on and only an intransigent and agenda driven SPFL and SFA is preventing common sense decision making.

In the meantime, I'm not of the view that anyone should be forced to shoehorn into something which is fundamentally unfit for purpose.

Edited January 3, 2016 by HTG

[HTG]

Burntisland are a tier 6 side.

My apologies.

[Burnie_man]

Well for a start, North/South split is a nonsense way to start the regionalisation of the pyramid. An absolute nonsense.

The regionalisation has to recognise volumetrics in terms of the demographic map of Scotland.

I'd bet plenty of dollars on the juniors becoming a lot more interested if the thing was properly structured.

But then we'd very quickly see how stubborn the SPFL clubs would be. Remember that the SFA and SPFL wanted a NATIONAL conference under the SPFL. That's effectively a few clubs dictating the entire structure that hundreds of clubs below them need to fit into.

Everywhere you look you see self interest so there's no point in throwing all the shite at the juniors. They are culpable but the SPFL are more culpable in my view. The likes of Spartans and a few of the non league seniors came out smelling of roses. In the Highlands there is zero evidence that a licenced club could join the HFL - there is no mechanism through which to do so.

And just to show what the SFA were really made of they tried to adjust the licencing criteria AFTER Linlithgow had submitted their application. They then went on to amend it so that no matter how community focused you were or how well your club was run, you had to declare a commitment to a shite pyramid model or you were getting no licence. So the SFA would rather protect their own crap than encourage and engage with progressive junior clubs. This of course suits the dinosaur, green cheese junior teams to a tee. The SFA are doing more for that group by stifling the more ambitious teams.

Top job SFA, top job.

Nail on head, and the point I have been trying to make for the last few pages.

[Wilky1878]

North South is ludicrous in my view. France goes to a 3 way split from the national league. It's completely sensible for Scotland. You'll be lucky if there is 20% of the population north of the Tay. So we can assume that the depth of a pyramid would follow similar lines. Even if you were to split the Lowlands in 2, you'd struggle to achieve a reasonable and fair spread of opportunity.

I'm not getting into a senior/junior argument - I want my club in the pyramid. But in this case, the juniors preferred model is bang on and only an intransigent and agenda driven SPFL and SFA is preventing common sense decision making.

In the meantime, I'm not of the view that anyone should be forced to shoehorn into something which is fundamentally unfit for purpose.

You will never get a bang on reflection in terms of population or number of clubs in Scotland. This is mainly because of the bulk of clubs around central Scotland. I totally agree that there should be an East/West split but I think the setup should go something along the lines of:

Division 1 (16)

Division 2 (16)

Division 3 (10)

North/South (circa 16 each)

And then south can go East/West afterwards of that.

[Burnie_man]

North South is ludicrous in my view. France goes to a 3 way split from the national league. It's completely sensible for Scotland. You'll be lucky if there is 20% of the population north of the Tay. So we can assume that the depth of a pyramid would follow similar lines. Even if you were to split the Lowlands in 2, you'd struggle to achieve a reasonable and fair spread of opportunity.

I'm not getting into a senior/junior argument - I want my club in the pyramid. But in this case, the juniors preferred model is bang on and only an intransigent and agenda driven SPFL and SFA is preventing common sense decision making.

In the meantime, I'm not of the view that anyone should be forced to shoehorn into something which is fundamentally unfit for purpose.

Spain splits into 4 regions at tier three and then something like 17 at tier four.

The Juniors have the blueprint for what tier five should have looked like from the start, or to be honest what tier three or four should look like.

The SJFA stated all along they would co-operate with a Pyramid if the Junior structure remained intact ie three regions. If the proposal had been to merge the EoSFL into the East Region, the SoSFL into the West Region and the North into the HFL, then you would more or less have a fully functioning Pyramid right now.

However, clubs like Spartans knew that potentially could spell big trouble for their SPFL ambitions, and drove for another agenda along with the then SFL, although the irony is, if any SPFL2 club are relegated to LL, they'll be dropping into a much weaker structure than what would have been in place with a East/West split.

[Burnie_man]

You will never get a bang on reflection in terms of population or number of clubs in Scotland. This is mainly because of the bulk of clubs around central Scotland. I totally agree that there should be an East/West split but I think the setup should go something along the lines of:

Division 1 (16)

Division 2 (16)

Division 3 (10)

North/South (circa 16 each)

And then south can go East/West afterwards of that.

So you're left scraping around for quality to fill the North Division, whilst big clubs in the South can't get a look in due to sheer numbers. That's where you need to appreciate that North/South is daft and does not work.

[Wilky1878]

This thread seems to be aiming towards the change in leagues and adding a fully functional pyramid. I'm going to try add more to the discussion by bringing in the idea of cups.

I'd have a Scottish cup that's entered by every licensed Club. Similar set up to just now with seeds and depending on the previous seasons league position would depend on the round you enter.

I like the new idea of the league cup that begins next season so I'll stick with that.

Challenge cup - if my proposal of 16-16-10 was to go ahead then the challenge cup could feature the 26 clubs from division two/three plus the top 3 in a North/South divide.

Non-league cup - maybe not the best of names but a cup for the teams in the north/south divide to fare against each other (I.e tier 4 in my proposal or tier 5 currently)

Junior cup - presuming the sjfa were still the governing body for those leagues after a fully functioning pyramid was formed it could keep a similar setup to just now.

Amateur cup - if we could get the amateurs involved then a straight knockout amateur cup could also take part throughout the season.

This does seem like alot of cups but when you look at it, it could work smoothly. The only division that could see a problem with this is north/south.

Theoreticaly Scottish cup entries would more than likely be tier 1 to roughly tier 6 teams. League cup would involve tier 1-3 plus two teams from tier 4. Non-league cup would involve tier 4 clubs and junior cup would involve all league between tier 4 and the first amateur tier with amateur cup involving everything below that.*

*tiers were based on my proposal so could be interpreted for change in different set-ups.