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Mr Bairn

League reconstruction: Let's hear your view

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Wouldn't bank on the spfl voting for anything, look how long it took down south with the National League going into the EFL. Mention 2 relegated and clubs will demand that 2 go up, just to improve their chances, and not being out in the  wilderness. 2 up 2 down and no play offs, simple.

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Can't see that happening without expanding the league first, though.

We'll no doubt be in Lockdown II and football-free by the beginning of October, so there'll be plenty of time and necessity to revisit all Lockdown I league issues soon.

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Guess I always thought that bringing west juniors into the senior game and expanding the league would be enough to coax people away from supporting the Old Firm. You know, like, if certain tabloids kept up their enthusiastic coverage of those ex-juniors, especially when more involved with Scottish Cup and SPFL matches, then people's allegiance to their wee team may supplant their support for Ringers and Ceptic and cut them down to size a bit. Naive but true.

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Not sure of the fanbase but how many could the likes of Talbot,Pollok etc get, if they got all the way into the spfl ? Would 2500 be close ? I'm surprised we haven't heard of many clubs in real trouble yet, maybe wait until 2021.

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I doubt there are many teams at any level in Scotland that could get over 5,000 if they get to the top flight, other than the "legacy" clubs like Dundee or Falkirk who still have that latent support.

 

Of the new clubs, I'd say the likeliest to get big crowds is East Kilbride, just on the force of population.  I know people would have moved there originally with their original loyalties, but there must be a decent number of people who go along as their second team, taking their kids who might have it as their first.

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On 21/09/2020 at 18:03, Andy groundhopper said:

Not sure of the fanbase but how many could the likes of Talbot,Pollok etc get, if they got all the way into the spfl ? Would 2500 be close ? I'm surprised we haven't heard of many clubs in real trouble yet, maybe wait until 2021.

If I heard the interview with Stenhousemuir's chairman correctly on Radio Scotland this morning then he thinks that clubs at their level will start folding before the end of the year as it now looks unlikely that supporters will be back this autumn/winter.

Edited by Oldster

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On 21/09/2020 at 18:03, Andy groundhopper said:

Not sure of the fanbase but how many could the likes of Talbot,Pollok etc get, if they got all the way into the spfl ? Would 2500 be close ? I'm surprised we haven't heard of many clubs in real trouble yet, maybe wait until 2021.

I'd be shocked if the clubs you mention would ever get anywhere near that. Auchinleck is a small place with two fairly big clubs on their doorstep. You've also got to remember, they've been hugely succesful over the past few years which draws in crowds. If they were to get into the SPFL, they might well have some initial success with good crowds. But once the novelty wears off, are they going to really draw in hundreds or thousands more fans if they're idling around the middle of League Two or trying to avoid relegation in League One? I'd seriously doubt it.

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On 22/09/2020 at 08:43, bluearmyfaction said:

I doubt there are many teams at any level in Scotland that could get over 5,000 if they get to the top flight, other than the "legacy" clubs like Dundee or Falkirk who still have that latent support.

 

Of the new clubs, I'd say the likeliest to get big crowds is East Kilbride, just on the force of population.  I know people would have moved there originally with their original loyalties, but there must be a decent number of people who go along as their second team, taking their kids who might have it as their first.

I suppose Livingston is a reasonable blueprint for what could be achieved for East Kilbride. A smaller population than EK but let's say that accounts for the extra strong pull of the OF through in the west.

They're getting crowds of 3.5k in the premier. I suppose that's something that's up there at the high end of what's theoretically achievable at EK.

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4 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

I'd be shocked if the clubs you mention would ever get anywhere near that. Auchinleck is a small place with two fairly big clubs on their doorstep. You've also got to remember, they've been hugely succesful over the past few years which draws in crowds. If they were to get into the SPFL, they might well have some initial success with good crowds. But once the novelty wears off, are they going to really draw in hundreds or thousands more fans if they're idling around the middle of League Two or trying to avoid relegation in League One? I'd seriously doubt it.

I think a lot of the clubs from the non-league would have issues just with getting 2,500 people in their grounds on a regular basis, that's before worrying about finding the bodies to fill it.

The higher end clubs in the non-league would probably see the same sort of attendances that some of the part-time SPFL clubs get going between League Two-Championship. 500-1,500+

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On 11/09/2020 at 11:54, no-brainer said:

I think a larger tier 2 is desirable to help big part-time clubs transition to full-time football: the additional finance from consistently playing alongside full-time clubs with their larger travelling supports should help.

I take it having more full-time clubs is desirable to the game in order to help develop youngsters.

Totally agree re more full time clubs being desirable. The problem is the crowds/income to justify it. A lot of the current Championship teams are struggling to maintain full time football on crowds around the 1,500 mark., sometimes less.

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4 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

I suppose Livingston is a reasonable blueprint for what could be achieved for East Kilbride. A smaller population than EK but let's say that accounts for the extra strong pull of the OF through in the west.

They're getting crowds of 3.5k in the premier. I suppose that's something that's up there at the high end of what's theoretically achievable at EK.

You don't think the old firm is as big a pull in Livingston? mini Glasgow outside Edinburgh is what it is with  diluted weegie accents all round the place .

WATP

Edited by effeffsee_the2nd

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38 minutes ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

You don't think the old firm is as big a pull in Livingston? mini Glasgow outside Edinburgh is what it is with  diluted weegie accents all round the place .

WATP

Aye, true.

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On 21/09/2020 at 18:03, Andy groundhopper said:

Not sure of the fanbase but how many could the likes of Talbot,Pollok etc get, if they got all the way into the spfl ? Would 2500 be close ? I'm surprised we haven't heard of many clubs in real trouble yet, maybe wait until 2021.

 

On 23/09/2020 at 10:57, FairWeatherFan said:

I think a lot of the clubs from the non-league would have issues just with getting 2,500 people in their grounds on a regular basis, that's before worrying about finding the bodies to fill it.

The higher end clubs in the non-league would probably see the same sort of attendances that some of the part-time SPFL clubs get going between League Two-Championship. 500-1,500+

Pollok's website used to state that their average attendance was 500+; simultaneously,  Bo'ness's (?!) website stated that they were the best-supported club in junior football; I always assumed that Clydebank would be thereabouts attendance-wise too - because they were recently seniors, but that is a non-sequitur I guess.

But how those attendances would translate to doing well or poorly when competing in a national SPFL, I don't know.

On 23/09/2020 at 10:47, Gordon EF said:

I suppose Livingston is a reasonable blueprint for what could be achieved for East Kilbride. A smaller population than EK but let's say that accounts for the extra strong pull of the OF through in the west.

They're getting crowds of 3.5k in the premier. I suppose that's something that's up there at the high end of what's theoretically achievable at EK.

I like the long-term 'sugar daddy' approach for clubs like East Kilbride with the potential fan base to support full-time football, but not for clubs where the support could never be there to sustain their investment.

I think the home support within the attendances at Livingston must be less than half of the figure you mention, so it makes me wonder how small a club could be and still manage full-time football in the Premiership (but they'd have to make it there first).

On 23/09/2020 at 14:22, Doonhamer1969 said:

Totally agree re more full time clubs being desirable. The problem is the crowds/income to justify it. A lot of the current Championship teams are struggling to maintain full time football on crowds around the 1,500 mark., sometimes less.

I had thought more full-time clubs were a sign of a healthier game in Scotland, but I now think it's as you say regarding their sustainability; I also thought they were desirable in terms of developing young players - because of full-time training in order to improve their technique, with more opportunity to be picked to play matches each week when team-mates are at a slightly lower level.

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On ‎21‎/‎09‎/‎2020 at 08:55, Oldster said:

Guess I always thought that bringing west juniors into the senior game and expanding the league would be enough to coax people away from supporting the Old Firm. You know, like, if certain tabloids kept up their enthusiastic coverage of those ex-juniors, especially when more involved with Scottish Cup and SPFL matches, then people's allegiance to their wee team may supplant their support for Ringers and Ceptic and cut them down to size a bit. Naive but true.

Make a good debate on the Forth Sevco Supporters Bus.

Why go to Ibrox when we can watch Forth Wanderers at home to Ardeer?

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35 minutes ago, no-brainer said:

I think the home support within the attendances at Livingston must be less than half of the figure you mention, so it makes me wonder how small a club could be and still manage full-time football in the Premiership (but they'd have to make it there first).

Yeah, I think their minimum last season was just over 1,000. Assuming that's midweek at home to Ross County or something like that, it's maybe not too far off the mark to suggest their 'core' home support might be 1-1.5 k.

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On ‎23‎/‎09‎/‎2020 at 10:57, FairWeatherFan said:

I think a lot of the clubs from the non-league would have issues just with getting 2,500 people in their grounds on a regular basis, that's before worrying about finding the bodies to fill it.

The higher end clubs in the non-league would probably see the same sort of attendances that some of the part-time SPFL clubs get going between League Two-Championship. 500-1,500+

 

On ‎23‎/‎09‎/‎2020 at 10:57, FairWeatherFan said:

I think a lot of the clubs from the non-league would have issues just with getting 2,500 people in their grounds on a regular basis, that's before worrying about finding the bodies to fill it.

The higher end clubs in the non-league would probably see the same sort of attendances that some of the part-time SPFL clubs get going between League Two-Championship. 500-1,500+

 

On ‎23‎/‎09‎/‎2020 at 10:57, FairWeatherFan said:

I think a lot of the clubs from the non-league would have issues just with getting 2,500 people in their grounds on a regular basis, that's before worrying about finding the bodies to fill it.

The higher end clubs in the non-league would probably see the same sort of attendances that some of the part-time SPFL clubs get going between League Two-Championship. 500-1,500+

Plus of course the price of admission would be a factor.

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Interesting stuff, guessing that every club from spfl downwards will have to look at their prices in the future.Always found up to  £10 to be ok for non league, but struggle to see anything above £20 for the big leagues as being out of reach for many people. I'll downsize and say if the likes of Talbot,Pollok etc could get a 1,000 regularly, then fair enough.

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6 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Interesting stuff, guessing that every club from spfl downwards will have to look at their prices in the future.Always found up to  £10 to be ok for non league, but struggle to see anything above £20 for the big leagues as being out of reach for many people. I'll downsize and say if the likes of Talbot,Pollok etc could get a 1,000 regularly, then fair enough.

Curious where Talbot would find the extra punters from at a SPFL level.

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15 hours ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Interesting stuff, guessing that every club from spfl downwards will have to look at their prices in the future.Always found up to  £10 to be ok for non league, but struggle to see anything above £20 for the big leagues as being out of reach for many people. I'll downsize and say if the likes of Talbot,Pollok etc could get a 1,000 regularly, then fair enough.

Auchinleck would likely max out at a certain point for various factors. The higher up they can go on the field of play, the more expensive things become off of it. They're from a village of less 4,000 and surrounded by a number of clubs they would be leaving behind.

If you're a casual fan not from Auchinleck itself and just interested in the non-league experience you've got Cumnock, Glenafton, Hurlford, and Darvel very local that would be playing WoS Premier/LL level and numerous smaller clubs below that.

Edited by FairWeatherFan

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12 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Auchinleck would likely max out at a certain point for various factors. The higher up the can go on the field of play, the more expensive things become of it. They're from a village of less 4,000 and surrounded by a number of clubs they would be leaving behind.

If you're a casual fan not from Auchinleck itself and just interested in the non-league experience you've got Cumnock, Glenafton, Hurlford, and Darvel very local that would be playing WoS Premier/LL level and numerous smaller clubs below that.

In football terms Auchinleck might as well in the Highlands to the average punter in the Central Belt.

Edited by Tutankhamen

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