League reconstruction: Let's hear your view

[ahemps]

On 21/08/2020 at 08:22, Marten said:

I can't see a Dutch/Belgian league happen any time soon. Every few years someone brings it up, it's reported to be "really serious" but then gets nowhere as not enough clubs are interested. That's been going on for at least 2 decades.

I wasn't aware that this has been going on for so long.

I believe though that the champions league format will change in a few years to even more benefit of the current superclubs and if the countries outwith the 'top 5' leagues don't do anything they will fall further behind.

I believe in tradition and would prefer that domestic leagues remain but became more competitive but sadly I feel that is very unlikely. The only way our league, Netherlands, Portugal, Croatia, Serbia etc could become genuinely competitive would be drastic rule changes which make it difficult for clubs to dominate but any new changes seem to be going in the opposite direction. If cross border leagues can bring more competition I would accept that as a small price to pay.

[Marten]

48 minutes ago, ahemps said:

I wasn't aware that this has been going on for so long.

I believe though that the champions league format will change in a few years to even more benefit of the current superclubs and if the countries outwith the 'top 5' leagues don't do anything they will fall further behind.

I believe in tradition and would prefer that domestic leagues remain but became more competitive but sadly I feel that is very unlikely. The only way our league, Netherlands, Portugal, Croatia, Serbia etc could become genuinely competitive would be drastic rule changes which make it difficult for clubs to dominate but any new changes seem to be going in the opposite direction. If cross border leagues can bring more competition I would accept that as a small price to pay.

In the Dutch/Belgian case some of the bigger clubs support it, but there is nowhere near a majority in either country as mid-table teams in both leagues would see themselves suddenly being turned into relegation fodder while the current clubs near the bottom worry that they have no chance of being in the top flight. Unless there would be some major compensation for smaller clubs (like a lot more TV money or so) they're unlikely to support it. I'd assume that would be the problem for any cross-border league.

[Stag Nation]

20 hours ago, prodcast said:

They could test the idea as a Celtic Cup, with Swansea, Cardiff, the four Irish regions that were mentioned, and some of our lot.

 

So, two Welsh clubs who almost certainly wouldn't be interested, and four Irish clubs who don't actually exist. Maybe needs a bit more work?

[algy]

On 04/08/2020 at 07:55, Darren44 said:

In Rugby Scotland, Wales, Ireland formed the CELTIC LEAGUE in order to compete with the English and French Rugby Leagues.

 

Well Ladies and Gentlemen its time for Football to do the same as its Rugby County Parts like it or not. Cross Border Leagues are the Future for Small Nations. In order to compete with the big Leagues.

CELTIC LEAGUE FOOTBALL.

SCOTLAND  6 Teams

Northern Ireland 6 Teams

Irish Republic 6 Teams

Wales                2 Teams

A 20 team league playing twice. The bottom team each season is relegated to there national League. Alternatively you could two division Celtic Leagues. With National leagues as Third Division.

Games would be played on a weekend to enable fans to travel. and free up mid week for European Games.

 

UEFA OBJECTS

 

UEFA in the past as objected. However UEFA now accept Cross Border leagues will become a reality for clubs to compete with the bigger leagues.

The problem with any proposed cross border League involving Welsh clubs is that the ones who might be interested already play in a more lucrative cross-border league (the English pyramid). The remaining clubs were previously involved in a cross border league and decided it wasn't worth the effort, hence (one of the reasons) why the League of Wales was formed in 1992.

[BFTD]

I'd no idea that Merthyr Tydfil died in 2010.

A true loss to the inevitable Celtic League that Celtgers would absolutely run off to join if presented with the opportunity. Just imagine the prestige and money to be made from spurning dross like St Johnstone and Kilmarnock, in order to play big clubs like Dundalk, Linfield, and Total Network Solutions.

The Welsh clubs will have a significant bigotry deficit, of course, but I'm sure they'll catch up over time.

[Marten]

2 hours ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

I'd no idea that Merthyr Tydfil died in 2010.

A true loss to the inevitable Celtic League that Celtgers would absolutely run off to join if presented with the opportunity. Just imagine the prestige and money to be made from spurning dross like St Johnstone and Kilmarnock, in order to play big clubs like Dundalk, Linfield, and Total Network Solutions.

The Welsh clubs will have a significant bigotry deficit, of course, but I'm sure they'll catch up over time.

A phoenix club Merthyr Town replaced them, they're now step 3.

TNS means The New Saints these days.  

[Andy groundhopper]

It's ok trying to improve the game, but seeing English non lge clubs in a Scottish Cup is pointless and probably expensive too. The Welsh clubs are already struggling, and the Irish can't really be that interested. Maybe an spfl division north and south at spfl2 level , a return to just playing home and away. Unlike the English pyramid where you have loads of clubs below the EFL attracting crowds of 1500+ who would benefit being promoted - the Scottish game doesn't have that luxury. Think the money needs to be spread bottom upwards to help clubs survive.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

I believe cross border leagues are inevitable in the future as smaller nations simply cannot compete with the big 5 and UEFA will be happy to see increased revenue as clubs like ajax and porto regain some of their former glory, a Celtic league is just pointless tho, Scotland is already much higher in standard than any others and  the other 3 nations have the same problem as us - the public are more interested in English and European football than domestic or in Irelands case the old firm which will stay the same .

[prodcast]

I'm not quite clear on what sort of cross-border league we'd be looking at: 

- full integration with other countries at the top level(s), and national leagues feeding into that via play offs;

- or, an Atlantic League sort of thing with a permanent, franchise-type membership that's just about the kudos;

- or, creating something that looks like a sixth major European league, with Champions' League places available, etc.

I'm not sure those categories are mutually exclusive, mind you 

[ahemps]

On 27/08/2020 at 16:30, effeffsee_the2nd said:

I believe cross border leagues are inevitable in the future as smaller nations simply cannot compete with the big 5 and UEFA will be happy to see increased revenue as clubs like ajax and porto regain some of their former glory, a Celtic league is just pointless tho, Scotland is already much higher in standard than any others and  the other 3 nations have the same problem as us - the public are more interested in English and European football than domestic or in Irelands case the old firm which will stay the same .

I agree with you that they are inevitable, how long until they happen I don't know?

The champions league is apparently due for changes around 2023/24. I think the new UEFA Conference is already being lined up to appease the lesser clubs as I think the Champions league is heading towards more and more domination from the big 5 leagues and it may almost become a European superleague with the clubs from these countries being locked in with very little space for teams outwith these leagues. This might be the trigger for other countries to then look to cross border leagues.

I agree a Celtic one doesn't seem to work. A Benelux one does look to have good potential and possibly some other countries where politics doesn't get in the way, Switzerland & Austria? Czech and Slovakia?

I think the next 10-15 years could change the footballing landscape.

[Andy groundhopper]

The way covid19 is affecting things, the travel between countries could make leagues a non starter. Maybe some sort of British League fitting in somewhere in the pyramid. Just think : North  Division Sunderland v Celtic  / Rangers or Plymouth v Sunderland, obvious I'd say. Now the EPL are almost out on their own, guess things will change further in the future. I'd go for an Icelandic League of sorts.

[algy]

12 hours ago, prodcast said:

I'm not quite clear on what sort of cross-border league we'd be looking at: 

- full integration with other countries at the top level(s), and national leagues feeding into that via play offs;

- or, an Atlantic League sort of thing with a permanent, franchise-type membership that's just about the kudos;

- or, creating something that looks like a sixth major European league, with Champions' League places available, etc.

I'm not sure those categories are mutually exclusive, mind you 

Arguably because all the Celtic leagues have top divisions of 12, you could just play either twice in the national League top flight and make up another 18 games per season in a divisions-of-10, cross border League. A bit like Brazil where teams play in the Brazilian national League and also regional leagues.

I'm far from convinced there's any economic sense in it mind, but that's the direction i'd look in since it doesn't threaten the autonomy of any of the national associations.

Edited August 29, 2020 by algy

[Classick]

On 03/08/2020 at 20:17, Darren44 said:

League Reconstruction

PREMIER LEAGUE

Premier of 14 clubs playing 26 games regular season. Then split the league into top of 6 playing for the Title and European Places. The bottom 7 play for three Relegation Spots.

The championship group play a further 10 games and the bottom 7 group play additional four. the bottom two are automatically relegated and the third from bottom plays the winner of the 3,4,5,6 of the championship

SCOTTISH CHAMPIONSHIP

A league consisting of 16 clubs playing for 30 games. The top are promoted to the Premier League. 3,4,5,6 play against each other for the right to play the third from bottom of the Premier Relegation Group. Bottom 5 automatically relegated.

LEAGUE 1

Five groups of 14 clubs with the winners of each group automatically promoted. 

 

 

 

How can you split a league of 14 in top 6 and bottom 7??? 6+7=13 !!! You need math tutoring man!

Additionally  I still wonder how bottom 7 group play only four games.

Regional league with five groups seems senseless

Edited August 31, 2020 by Classick

[Classick]

I think 14 teams is the ideal number for Scottish Premier, so I'd go with 14 teams. 

I dislike splits, but 26 matches would be not enough and playing each team three times would bring to 39 matches, which is ok, but there is an issue who would play the third game at home. The only solution would be a split and I'd go with top 7 and bottom 7. This would solve  home/away games madness, 19 home games for each team and would keep four Old Firm derbies. The main drawback is that after the split each team would have two free weekends and that would extend the season to 40 weeks rather than the current 38. Anyway a  week off  might help ease the strain on squads, especially on those playing european cups.

Below Premier  two more divisions of 14 (14-14-14 system), but other possibilities could be considered, like 14-10-18  system. More than 3 national leagues would be useless.

Below senior football : 3 regional leagues (North, East, West) which fits well the number of teams in each part of Scotland

Edited August 31, 2020 by Classick

[Stag Nation]

12 hours ago, Classick said:

I think 14 teams is the ideal number for Scottish Premier, so I'd go with 14 teams. 

I dislike splits, but 26 matches would be not enough and playing each team three times would bring to 39 matches, which is ok, but there is an issue who would play the third game at home. The only solution would be a split and I'd go with top 7 and bottom 7.

 

It's not the only solution.

Play 39 games, then a 40th to even out homes and aways. The additional round could be seeded, or local derbies (both would potentially give 4 OF games), or simply drawn at random.

[RabidAI]

On 31/08/2020 at 20:21, Classick said:

I think 14 teams is the ideal number for Scottish Premier, so I'd go with 14 teams. 

I dislike splits, but 26 matches would be not enough and playing each team three times would bring to 39 matches, which is ok, but there is an issue who would play the third game at home. The only solution would be a split and I'd go with top 7 and bottom 7. This would solve  home/away games madness, 19 home games for each team and would keep four Old Firm derbies. The main drawback is that after the split each team would have two free weekends and that would extend the season to 40 weeks rather than the current 38. Anyway a  week off  might help ease the strain on squads, especially on those playing european cups.

Below Premier  two more divisions of 14 (14-14-14 system), but other possibilities could be considered, like 14-10-18  system. More than 3 national leagues would be useless.

Below senior football : 3 regional leagues (North, East, West) which fits well the number of teams in each part of Scotland

I think we may end up with that but it could be a way off, once there's been a fuller pyramid for a while and clubs from all over have had some seasons to find their respective levels.

I can see the Lowland League eclipsing Leagues One and Two in terms of quality and intrigue over the next few seasons. That's one reason why I'd like to see two unregionalised parallel conferences at tier 3, which could be more attractive and competitive than the current setup; I don't like more than 3 national tiers, either.

On 01/09/2020 at 08:30, Stag Nation said:

It's not the only solution.

Play 39 games, then a 40th to even out homes and aways. The additional round could be seeded, or local derbies (both would potentially give 4 OF games), or simply drawn at random.

Good solution.

Another possibility would be to reverse the fixtures the following season and, similarly, just accept the inequalities - as we do now with the post-split fixtures. In that scenario, newly promoted teams could replace the relegated teams in the Premiership's reversed fixtures schedule. And the Old Firm could play their third match at Hampden.

 

It would be noble of the SPFL clubs, given the cancellation of pyramid play offs this season, to allow automatic promotion next season for both the Highland and Lowland champion clubs; it may mean a slightly smaller pile of dosh per club, but league expansion would at least preserve their League status.

[grazza]

It is important to discuss what we are looking for within our system. We need to try and ensure the top 2 tiers are in the main sustainable for full time football with the best ran part time teams able to still get in.  In Scotland we have maybe about 20 full time teams at the moment and this has been the case for a while. If there any others that could realistically go full time that are not full time already?.  So within the top 2 tiers at the moment I think 24 is the max. Going beyond that then I think you dilute the quality and size of crowds that currently help teams be full time. 

[Andy groundhopper]

A difficult one for Scotland, is a reconstruction based on keeping the top 2 divs full time etc or does it need to go further and bring the lower level HL,LL,EOS leagues much closer to the spfl. Now that a pyramid system is in place, you can see the once Junior's upping their game re ground improvements etc. Personally I don't like the current spfl fixtures set up, maybe a North and South Division in the future to help clubs finances and reduce travel costs.

[anonanist]

9 hours ago, grazza said:

It is important to discuss what we are looking for within our system. We need to try and ensure the top 2 tiers are in the main sustainable for full time football with the best ran part time teams able to still get in.  In Scotland we have maybe about 20 full time teams at the moment and this has been the case for a while. If there any others that could realistically go full time that are not full time already?.  So within the top 2 tiers at the moment I think 24 is the max. Going beyond that then I think you dilute the quality and size of crowds that currently help teams be full time. 

I worry about full-time clubs finding themselves in tier 3 for several seasons suffering from a gradual loss of supporters who never return. But sometimes a step down to become a big fish in a wee puddle can bring supporters out - their team winning more games because of the lower level can create momentum, as can the opportunity to rethink and go again.

As I understand it, clubs at tier 2 want to play one another 4 times per League season as the larger away support of full-time opponents is mutually beneficial is bolstering clubs' finances; for that reason, I wonder if expansion beyond a 12-14 team Championship is viable for them until there is evidence of clubs with larger supports coming up from below.

I wonder if the likes of Arbroath and Peterhead could go full-time after a few seasons alongside bigger clubs in the Championship, given their good home attendances. Certainly, clubs of a similar size as them such as Airdrie and Livingston have been or are full-time; Queen's Park are full-time this season (kit man required, if you fancy it?), East Kilbride are aiming to go full-time soon, and it wouldn't surprise me if Cove are or will be.

I think any club with s decent catchment area, such as one from Cumbernauld or Glenrothes, or with a historically large following such as Pollock or Bo'ness might manage it. But then I'm in favour of having the long-term 'sugar daddy' to bring success to those clubs that then builds the supporter base for a full-time future. Like Ross County.

[no-brainer]

2 hours ago, Andy groundhopper said:

A difficult one for Scotland, is a reconstruction based on keeping the top 2 divs full time etc or does it need to go further and bring the lower level HL,LL,EOS leagues much closer to the spfl. Now that a pyramid system is in place, you can see the once Junior's upping their game re ground improvements etc. Personally I don't like the current spfl fixtures set up, maybe a North and South Division in the future to help clubs finances and reduce travel costs.

I've been of the opinion that regionalisation below the top two levels is desirable for part-time clubs' finances. My reasoning has been that, regardless of where players are drawn from, the club still has to pay the increased travel costs of the team bus travelling more longer journeys in a national League when compared with fewer shorter journeys in a regional league; also, income should be higher for clubs whose teams play more local matches, because the away support of local rivals is much larger than the away support of clubs from the other side of the country in a national set up.

Furthermore, part-time clubs only seem to compete nationally when they are subsidised by the SPFL (for League matches) or by the SFA (for Scottish Cup matches); in all other circumstances (League Cup groups, Challenge Cup early rounds, reserve matches, non-league competitions) they compete on a regional basis. I have taken this as evidence that they cannot compete nationally, consistently, without subsidy that (I assume) makes up a larger proportion of their income than that of full-time clubs, who are normally better supported, and also as an attempt to produce more local derbies in competitions where interest/crowds are low and costs would otherwise be high.

For those reasons, some degree of regionalisation at tier 3 could be desirable - even if it's a couple of conferences, divided in the same way (i.e. north-south) as the League Cup group stages, with a changing cast for each conference depending upon who (and from where) is promoted or relegated. It could an exciting change, and the improved finances resulting from the change could produce more full-time clubs to promote to the Championship.

Edited September 6, 2020 by no-brainer
For clarity.