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League reconstruction: Let's hear your view


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On 16/07/2020 at 08:12, Darren44 said:

Yes is that why Scotland has failed to qualify for Major Tournaments at National Level or Club level.Hmm

Maybe people Scotland like seeing there teams fail

 

The current Structure is too weak and does not provide a challenge to clubs  and is not raising standards.

*their

The league structure has f**k all to do with success or failure of the national or club teams

Scotland qualified for World Cups under 18 and 10 team top divisions.

Scottish clubs have won European trophies under 18 and 10 team divisons and got to finals under 18, 10 and 12 team structures with and without splits

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On 18/07/2020 at 14:41, effeffsee_the2nd said:

I Don't agree that splits are good, they are in fact pish. Europe is one or 2 games & a by in the league cup for the 3rd and 4th place team - nice to have but not essential. Al that happens when you do have a tittle race is the top 2 playing out against teams who are safe , you miss the dross at the bottom skelping a nervous title chaser whilst scrapping for survival. 

I also quite like the idea of regionalization at a certain level but you have to think of Scotland's geography   90% of the teams will be within a 3 hour drive of each other, there are a few outliers obviously but they will remain outlies In a regional set up. it takes almost as long to get to inverness from Aberdeen as it does from the central belt.  it takes longer to get to fort William from Fraserbourgh than it does from Glasgow.  By all means go for it but you would be having regionalization for the sake of it
 

I don't know that that is, in fact, fact.

Our split has advantages and disadvanages.

The most obvious advantage is that it adds a target for mid-table teams in the run up to the split i.e. making it into or cementing your place in the top 6. Post split, the advantage is guaranteed games against your 'peers' and the ability to influence your final place (title, europe, relegation, play-off). This has led to some big old crowds turning up. Round robin, particularly double round robin, does not guarantee such games at the sharp end of the season.

The argument is about "meaningful" games. Some people will argue that every game is meaningfull, even the mid-table nothing-at-stake run-in games in a 16 or 18 team league, although I think that is really the self appointed super-fan; try selling it to the not-s0-super-fans (the vast majority) or a TV audience. You won't.

The disdvantage is that the teams in 7th and maybe 8th are stuck in 7th or 8th and cannot climb any hgher or qualify for Europe (always thought if 7th ended up with more points than the team in the final EL qualifying place, that could be a playoff but then again they had 33 games to make it into top 6 so, y'know...)

As for the dross skelping title challengers I had a look back and can't really see it happening pre-split days, but I found a few examples of teams in the top 6 'who are safe' not only beating a title challenger but influencing the destination of the title (Motherwell most famously (last day), Aberdeen in 2008 (last day), Hearts & Hibs (last day & 2nd last day) jointly in 2009 (draws)).

Fact is, most seasons ante-Sevco were usually mileas ahead or miles behind the other ugly sister and the safe teams or the dross had very little influence in the run-in.

 

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On 06/07/2020 at 17:00, DG7 said:

I agree with you. The problem with the SPFL is that it is run by the 42 clubs who the majority of don't want change. Scotland is one of the few countries which relies more on gate receipts than on TV money. Polls have shown that fans (as well as players) want larger leagues. So the 42 SPFL clubs are not listening to the people they rely on - the fans.

The league needs to be more open to having more promotion/relegation. This allows clubs to find their level quicker. To have more teams go up and down each season also means larger leagues. I'd rather there were 2 Old Firm games per season than 4. I realise Sky TV want 4 Old Firm games, but as I said above, TV money is not as important as supporters through the gate for Scottish clubs.

I would personally go for a 16-16-16 SPFL to start with. 3 up/down in each league apart from the 3rd tier where 2 go down automatically for LL and HL champions to go up.

With a 16 team league there can be a split after 2 games each. How that would work is open to discussion. 

What's more, I'd invite B teams to join the set-up possibly at the bottom tier. I suppose there's an argument for Rangers and Celtic B teams to join the Lowland League or bottom SPFL tier.
Again, summer football is worth a try. Might give our teams a tiny advantage in European qualifiers.

But all of the above post can be ignored really since the current 42 SPFL clubs will not vote for anything remotely like it. The voting structure is not fit for purpose.

Neil Doncaster (or whoever may in future be in his position) isn't worth the money since he cannot make decisions without 42 clubs voting. So he is really an administrator on a very large salary. 

It was all going so well until you mentioned the colts.

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You are completely wrong in saying clubs don’t want change.   The problem is there is no coherent structure that a majority will be able to get behind as very few clubs have completely common viewpoints which renders matters extremely complex

Edited by Cowden Cowboy
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3 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

You are completely wrong in saying clubs don’t want change.   The problem is there is no coherent structure that a majority will be able to get behind as very few clubs have completely common viewpoints which renders matters extremely complex

I think you could get agreement if it was planned for say two years ahead, it was impossible to get agreement this year as everyone knew exactly how they'd be placed, and what other clubs would be in their division, and naturally they all got their calculators out and settled for the status quo.

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37 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I think you could get agreement if it was planned for say two years ahead, it was impossible to get agreement this year as everyone knew exactly how they'd be placed, and what other clubs would be in their division, and naturally they all got their calculators out and settled for the status quo.

No because folks driving it mainly saw it from their own perspective.  Thus you see Ann Budge trying to get a 14 and saying to the rest just do what you like.  Or trying to foist Colts onto Lower League clubs despite it being knocked back more than once - there is no attempt to address lower league clubs issues just spin about the advantages of colts coming in.  The pyramid play off situation means that relegation is catastrophic in all likelihood for L2 clubs as no proper funding has been injected into the pyramid outside the Spfl.  Lower league clubs have seen all the extra money now available in League position fees burned up in increased player wages due to the trapdoor.  Clubs don’t want less home games but splits aren’t that popular nor is playing teams 4 times.  Clubs Short sightedly don’t want to lose out on their share of the pie.  Daft regionalisation ideas are put forward with no grasp of Scottish geography.  It’s a bit more difficult than just saying it would be plain sailing if 2 years hence.  It actually needs people who understand all the angles as viewed by 42 disparate clubs and needs leadership in delivering something that gets enough votes 

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14 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

No because folks driving it mainly saw it from their own perspective.  Thus you see Ann Budge trying to get a 14 and saying to the rest just do what you like.  Or trying to foist Colts onto Lower League clubs despite it being knocked back more than once - there is no attempt to address lower league clubs issues just spin about the advantages of colts coming in.  The pyramid play off situation means that relegation is catastrophic in all likelihood for L2 clubs as no proper funding has been injected into the pyramid outside the Spfl.  Lower league clubs have seen all the extra money now available in League position fees burned up in increased player wages due to the trapdoor.  Clubs don’t want less home games but splits aren’t that popular nor is playing teams 4 times.  Clubs Short sightedly don’t want to lose out on their share of the pie.  Daft regionalisation ideas are put forward with no grasp of Scottish geography.  It’s a bit more difficult than just saying it would be plain sailing if 2 years hence.  It actually needs people who understand all the angles as viewed by 42 disparate clubs and needs leadership in delivering something that gets enough votes 

I wasn't saying it would be easy, and it might take a while, but it has a lot more chance than trying to do it on the fly between seasons. Have to admit I thought maybe the lock down could have been an opportunity to push something through, I had no idea how terrified the L2 sides were of the clubs below though, and how desperate the L2 sides were for Falkirk and Partick gate money. And how the less optimistic sides in the Premiership were worried about losing out on old firm fixtures after the split.

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41 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I wasn't saying it would be easy, and it might take a while, but it has a lot more chance than trying to do it on the fly between seasons. Have to admit I thought maybe the lock down could have been an opportunity to push something through, I had no idea how terrified the L2 sides were of the clubs below though, and how desperate the L2 sides were for Falkirk and Partick gate money. And how the less optimistic sides in the Premiership were worried about losing out on old firm fixtures after the split.

L2 clubs aren’t generally terrified of the clubs below - but If relegated they see a structure below the SPFL which has little or no financial underpinning so their existing business model is virtually wrecked if you don’t bounce back in 1 but key competitors then have models based on folks injecting cash.  If you were an advocate for change though then you should already have understood some of these dynamics - that’s the problem reconstruction is driven by one dimensional ideas and outlooks with no understanding of key issues of many of the other parties.  

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14 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

L2 clubs aren’t generally terrified of the clubs below - but If relegated they see a structure below the SPFL which has little or no financial underpinning so their existing business model is virtually wrecked if you don’t bounce back in 1 but key competitors then have models based on folks injecting cash.  If you were an advocate for change though then you should already have understood some of these dynamics - that’s the problem reconstruction is driven by one dimensional ideas and outlooks with no understanding of key issues of many of the other parties.  

Yep. Clubs are completely incentivised to protect what they have right now. It seems like most of them don't consider that they could be in a different league in a few years time. The trapdoor is the perfect example. L2 are terrified of going into the LL because it's a nightmare to get out of. Opening things up a bit means you have more chance of going down but also means you have a much better chance of getting back up if you do.

Setting up reconstruction for say 5 years in the future is a great idea. It'll probably never happen but it would be great if clubs could sit down and figure out a structure as if they didn't know exactly which part of that structure they'd move into.

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OK - Reconstruction.

(I am not even going to countenance title-play-offs.  That is Mickey Mouse thinking for Mickey Mouse sports).

You first deal breaker (or strictly speaking, deal-maker) with Mr. Murdoch is 4 Old Firm matches per season.  So forget about 16 or 18 team leagues.

10 is one number which guarantees the requisite number of OF duels  - Good Luck getting the majority of current 12 Premiership clubs to agree to reduce their numbers, though.

You could just about squeeze 12 clubs playing each other 4 times into a season (we have done it before), but it leaves precious little room for wriggle in the event of a bad winter or (less likely, I know) someone having a run in Europe.

14 would work, with a 6/8 or 8/6 (or even 7/7) split, after each side plays each other twice.  But that means a split around late January or early February.  A long time afterwards for the majority of clubs to spend treading water.

 

So how about we try a top league of 12, which splits into 6/6 after clubs play each other three times?  That would be worth a go.

Oh, wait a minute...............

 

 

  

  

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On 28/07/2020 at 20:33, Ian38018 said:

OK - Reconstruction.

(I am not even going to countenance title-play-offs.  That is Mickey Mouse thinking for Mickey Mouse sports).

You first deal breaker (or strictly speaking, deal-maker) with Mr. Murdoch is 4 Old Firm matches per season.  So forget about 16 or 18 team leagues.

10 is one number which guarantees the requisite number of OF duels  - Good Luck getting the majority of current 12 Premiership clubs to agree to reduce their numbers, though.

You could just about squeeze 12 clubs playing each other 4 times into a season (we have done it before), but it leaves precious little room for wriggle in the event of a bad winter or (less likely, I know) someone having a run in Europe.

14 would work, with a 6/8 or 8/6 (or even 7/7) split, after each side plays each other twice.  But that means a split around late January or early February.  A long time afterwards for the majority of clubs to spend treading water.

 

So how about we try a top league of 12, which splits into 6/6 after clubs play each other three times?  That would be worth a go.

Oh, wait a minute...............  

Top league can stay 12 all it wants. Who cares? It's a fucking shite league anyway. It's by some distance the least interesting league in the whole pyramid and has been for years.

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On 28/07/2020 at 20:33, Ian38018 said:

You first deal breaker (or strictly speaking, deal-maker) with Mr. Murdoch is 4 Old Firm matches per season.  So forget about 16 or 18 team leagues.

 

Mr Murdoch couldn't care less. He sold Sky a couple of years ago.

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9 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

Top league can stay 12 all it wants. Who cares? It's a fucking shite league anyway. It's by some distance the least interesting league in the whole pyramid and has been for years.

I remember a Falkirk fan telling me that the Championship was a lot more fun and while he was happy to get promoted as that is their aim and the success brings you joy the premiership was boring for him. I couldn't get the concept of that at the time but as I got older I totally get it. The premiership does everything for the sake of 2 teams and these are the only 2 teams that can ever win it. If my team is in a competition I want the opportunity to win it not only to be there to make the numbers up so the old firm have a league to play in. I would say the most interesting league in my lifetime was the championship when Hibs, Rangers and Hearts were in it and probably because Rangers were just like any other team for a season.

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29 minutes ago, Stag Nation said:

Mr Murdoch couldn't care less. He sold Sky a couple of years ago.

The point is the same, the premiership will never be able to change as Sky want 4 old firm games. It doesn't matter that the majority of Scottish football fans would like a bigger league and a more varied opposition, we have to tick the as many old firm games as possible box.

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59 minutes ago, ahemps said:

I remember a Falkirk fan telling me that the Championship was a lot more fun and while he was happy to get promoted as that is their aim and the success brings you joy the premiership was boring for him. I couldn't get the concept of that at the time but as I got older I totally get it. The premiership does everything for the sake of 2 teams and these are the only 2 teams that can ever win it. If my team is in a competition I want the opportunity to win it not only to be there to make the numbers up so the old firm have a league to play in. I would say the most interesting league in my lifetime was the championship when Hibs, Rangers and Hearts were in it and probably because Rangers were just like any other team for a season.

Reality is Falkirk win more matches generally in championship than they do in premier.  Fans like seeing their side winning thus premier is boring because they don’t see many wins

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40 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

Reality is Falkirk win more matches generally in championship than they do in premier.  Fans like seeing their side winning thus premier is boring because they don’t see many wins

That is fair and I don't imagine Hearts fans want to be in the championship to get that same feeling but that wasn't the reasoning behind his comment. The point he was making and I now understand is  that at the start of the season in the championship all the teams can dream of winning it (whether that is likely or not) but can also have the surprise of actually getting relegated as Falkirk and Partick have proven recently. In the Premiership 10 of the 12 teams can only ever get to 3rd but can also get relegated. There isn't a limit as to what a team can achieve in the championship, there is in the premiership. Nobody dreams of finishing 3rd therefore 10 of the 12 prem teams don't really start the season with any real excitement as to what they can achieve.

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On 29/07/2020 at 22:58, Gordon EF said:

Top league can stay 12 all it wants. Who cares? It's a fucking shite league anyway. It's by some distance the least interesting league in the whole pyramid and has been for years.

The "least interesting" to whom?

100,000 folks turn up each fortnight to either Parkhead or Ibrox - and that is not counting the Celtic-minded or "Rangers-minded" (if such a term exists), who fail to frequent their local clubs due to their tribal leanings, but shell out for Sky/BT packages.  The doings of the Ugly Sisters may not interest you, but when it comes to selling our game they are, regretfully, the only show in town. 

Edited by Ian38018
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On 30/07/2020 at 08:03, Stag Nation said:
On 28/07/2020 at 20:33, Ian38018 said:

Your first deal breaker (or strictly speaking, deal-maker) with Mr. Murdoch is 4 Old Firm matches per season.  So forget about 16 or 18 team leagues.

 

Mr Murdoch couldn't care less. He sold Sky a couple of years ago.

A figure of speech, sir.

Edited by Ian38018
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Guest Longbottom Leaf

I would go for the idea of two 16 leagues.

Maximum of 5 non British/Irish players played in a game.

No split. EVER.

Bottom two down top two up.

3rd Bottom plays 3rd top for relegation promotion.

Same with 4th and 4th.

2 subs.

January shut-down.

Free pies and bovril.

 

Edited by Longbottom Leaf
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On 31/07/2020 at 19:11, Ian38018 said:

The "least interesting" to whom?

100,000 folks turn up each fortnight to either Parkhead or Ibrox - and that is not counting the Celtic-minded or "Rangers-minded" (if such a term exists), who fail to frequent their local clubs due to their tribal leanings, but shell out for Sky/BT packages.  The doings of the Ugly Sisters may not interest you, but when it comes to selling our game they are, regretfully, the only show in town. 

Me. It's a subjective opinion obviously. But more generally, to an interested outsider, I think the tope league is the least interesting.

It's obvious that the clubs in the top league have the most fans and therefore the highest crowds It's also obvious that they have the best players and therefore the quality is higher than all the other leagues.

I also understand why the OF dominate TV deals etc. I'm just saying that as a football supporting neutral, I have no interest in that league because it is mind-numbingly boring.

If the Lowland League was playing right now, I'd be gasping to go along to a game before L1 started. I'm not sure I'll even turn on the TV to watch the Premiership.

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