Burnie_man Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Which wasn't my point In which case I have no idea what point you were making by asking me to define what a local game is. East Fife wouldn't play Stranraer in a regional league game as my preferred scenario would be a three region structure (effectively Highland League, Lowland League East, Lowland League West). Forfar would travel to Peterhead but it's preferable than Peterhead travelling to say Stranraer, Annan and Berwick (or even Albion Rovers). We can all pick holes in every proposed structure, there's always going to be an exception, but looking at the bigger picture is often the better way to look at it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) In which case I have no idea what point you were making by asking me to define what a local game is. East Fife wouldn't play Stranraer in a regional league game as my preferred scenario would be a three region structure (effectively Highland League, Lowland League East, Lowland League West). Forfar would travel to Peterhead but it's preferable than Peterhead travelling to say Stranraer, Annan and Berwick (or even Albion Rovers). We can all pick holes in every proposed structure, there's always going to be an exception, but looking at the bigger picture is often the better way to look at it. My point was this romantic notion of playing local teams simply doesn't exist if we want semi-competitive leagues. If clubs are traveling 3 hours for a game we can't seriously suggest fans and players are happy to make that journey but are unwilling to travel 4 hours. It's a full day commitment regardless. Even under a 3 region system the affect on the majority of clubs is negligible, and on the half a dozen or so who would reduce travel will still be making long journeys. L2, HL and LL split into 3 regions would look like this. North Wick Brora Clachnacuddin Forres Nairn Lossiemouth Strathspey Keith Buckie Deveronvale Fraserburgh Turniff Formartine Huntly Elgin Rothes East Inverurie Strathspey Cove Arbroath Montrose East Fife Berwick Edinburgh city Spartans Preston Edinburgh uni Whitehall welfare Gala Selkirk Vale of leithen West Fort William Stirling uni East stirlingshire Stirling albion Gretna Dalbealtie Threave Bsc Cumbernauld colts East Kilbride Queens park Annan Clyde Quite the utopia Edited December 31, 2015 by parsforlife 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 (edited) You seem to have missed the Junior clubs from that set-up, remember, we're looking at where we want to be, and if you introduced the three region set-up you absolutely would have larger Junior clubs looking to be involved. You also seem to have placed HFL clubs in the Lowland League East, as well as those SPFL Clubs who would fall into a northern division. To tweak what you have posted, this looks a lot more like where we want to be; HFL (18)ArbroathMontrose Elgin City Wick Academy Formartine UnitedBrora RangersClachnacuddin Inverurie LocosForres Mechanics Cove RangersNairn CountyKeithBuckie ThistleDeveronvaleFraserburghTurriff UtdHuntlyInverurie Locos (Relegates to HFL2/North Superleague) Lowland East (16)East FifeBerwick Rangers East StirlingshireStirling Albion Linlithgow Rose Bonnyrigg Rose Bo’ness United Kelty Hearts Newtongrange StarEdinburgh citySpartansPreston AthleticEdinburgh UniversityWhitehall welfareGala Fairydean RoversStirling University (Relegates to a combined EoSFL/East Superleague)Lowland West (16)Queens ParkAnnan AthleticClyde Pollok Auchinleck Talbot Petershill Irvine Meadow Arthurlie Glenafton Athletic Kirkintilloch Rob Roy BSC GlasgowCumbernauld coltsEast Kilbride GretnaDalbeattie StarThreave Rovers (Relegates to West Superleague) There's nothing particularly "romantic" about the above set-up, apart from the fact that it would require a lot of self-interest to be set-aside, particularly on the part of those SPFL clubs that exist on hand outs, and the SJFA. It also cuts travel for most clubs, there will be exceptions of course but as I said a number of posts back we're never going to get "utopia", but it's as close as you'll likely to get. Edited December 31, 2015 by Burnie_man 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 You can't just add clubs that have shown no interest in gaining the relatively basic licencing requirements. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 You can't just add clubs that have shown no interest in gaining the relatively basic licencing requirements. Oh you can, remember we're talking of where we want to be with no historical baggage. and I would like to think any further (significant) change would involve plenty of notice, unlike the 6 weeks given for the formation of the Lowland League. If there's one lesson to be learned, you can't change 130 years of history (SJFA) at the drop of a hat. Takes a while to turn a lumbering cargo ship around. Propose a system that the Juniors buy into and you will see them take a serious interest, and it just so happens that - in my opinion at least - the three region system ticks a lot of boxes, including the SJFA's. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Oh you can, remember we're talking of where we want to be with no historical baggage. and I would like to think any further (significant) change would involve plenty of notice, unlike the 6 weeks given for the formation of the Lowland League. If there's one lesson to be learned, you can't change 130 years of history (SJFA) at the drop of a hat. Takes a while to turn a lumbering cargo ship around. Propose a system that the Juniors buy into and you will see them take a seious interest, and it just so happens that - in my opinion at least - the three region system ticks a lot of boxes, including the SJFA's. I wasn't aware we were in a position just to make things up, tho granted I haven't followed this thread that closely until the last few pages. The LL was not formed in 6 weeks, this is a complete lie that is repeated but it doesn't make it true. The Juniors may not have taken note of it until then, but it was heavily discussed in the couple of seasons before and the SJFA were well aware of that, it was pretty certain it would go ahead either the start of 2013-14 or 14-15 for months before applications were invited. What history are the SJFA changing? It's frustrating to be told more concessions are needed , from the organisation that hasn't bothered making any. Everyone else has moved significantly, the Juniors can't stay stubborn forever. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effeffsee_the2nd Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 You seem to have missed the Junior clubs from that set-up, remember, we're looking at where we want to be, and if you introduced the three region set-up you absolutely would have larger Junior clubs looking to be involved. You also seem to have placed HFL clubs in the Lowland League East, as well as those SPFL Clubs who would fall into a northern division. To tweak what you have posted, this looks a lot more like where we want to be; HFL (18) Arbroath Montrose Elgin City Wick Academy Formartine United Brora Rangers Clachnacuddin Inverurie Locos Forres Mechanics Cove Rangers Nairn County Keith Buckie Thistle Deveronvale Fraserburgh Turriff Utd Huntly Inverurie Locos (Relegates to HFL2/North Superleague) Lowland East (16) East Fife Berwick Rangers East Stirlingshire Stirling Albion Linlithgow Rose Bonnyrigg Rose Bo’ness United Kelty Hearts Newtongrange Star Edinburgh city Spartans Preston Athletic Edinburgh University Whitehall welfare Gala Fairydean Rovers Stirling University (Relegates to a combined EoSFL/East Superleague) Lowland West (16) Queens Park Annan Athletic Clyde Pollok Auchinleck Talbot Petershill Irvine Meadow Arthurlie Glenafton Athletic Kirkintilloch Rob Roy BSC Glasgow Cumbernauld colts East Kilbride Gretna Dalbeattie Star Threave Rovers (Relegates to West Superleague) There's nothing particularly "romantic" about the above set-up, apart from the fact that it would require a lot of self-interest to be set-aside, particularly on the part of those SPFL clubs that exist on hand outs, and the SJFA. It also cuts travel for most clubs, there will be exceptions of course but as I said a number of posts back we're never going to get "utopia", but it's as close as you'll likely to get. Is that with promotion straight to the championship ? I think that could be a bit of a step do make in one go and since youd need 3 relegation spots id be suprised if many promoted teams managed to stay up at all 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 I wasn't aware we were in a position just to make things up, tho granted I haven't followed this thread that closely until the last few pages. The LL was not formed in 6 weeks, this is a complete lie that is repeated but it doesn't make it true. The Juniors may not have taken note of it until then, but it was heavily discussed in the couple of seasons before and the SJFA were well aware of that, it was pretty certain it would go ahead either the start of 2013-14 or 14-15 for months before applications were invited. What history are the SJFA changing? It's frustrating to be told more concessions are needed , from the organisation that hasn't bothered making any. Everyone else has moved significantly, the Juniors can't stay stubborn forever. Junior clubs received 6-8 weeks notice of the formation of the LL, for applications to be submitted I recall the window was even shorter, it is not a complete lie, it is fact. I received the paperwork. The concept of it being "heavily discussed" is entirely different to it being confirmed, indeed there were some suggestions in Senior circles that it should be delayed given that there was no play-off on offer and it seemed rather hasty, that was brushed aside by Spartans and a few others who knew what they were doing. If you cannot appreciate that 130 years of Junior history can be brushed aside in a few weeks then you don't understand Junior football. It's been explained umpteen times over in the Junior forum. How long did it take the SFL to open up to the concept of relegation for example? As for concessions, if the set-up is a busted flush to start with then it's a busted flush regardless of how frustrating it is to deal with. A two region set-up is lunacy given the population and club spread between north of Scotland and south. There is still no promotion/relegation from the HFL/LL to anything below and not likely to be anytime soon, and brand new clubs are being dreamt up to fill the void, watch as Edusport Academy (who?) get the last LL place. The problem is, nobody is willing to hold their hands up and say they got it wrong, the media can't be bothered to look into it, the SFA think everything in the garden is rosy, and the SJFA continue to stick their fingers in their ears. Don't hold your breath on anything changing soon. Happy New Year to everyone when it comes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Is that with promotion straight to the championship ? I think that could be a bit of a step do make in one go and since youd need 3 relegation spots id be suprised if many promoted teams managed to stay up at all 16 x 16 above this, with the bottom club in SPFL entering a play-off group with the three reigonal winners. Group winners enter the SPFL. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effeffsee_the2nd Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Its no the worst but id rather have automatic relegation from spfl. I know that its far from ideal but a north south split between the championship and the N E W regions could help bridge the gap from regional to national whilst still allowing promotion and relegation . Given that the current spfl 2 clubs will be in it , just under 1/3rd of the 32 clubs will have been playing national football anyway. Its the 3rd tier so the larger regions shouldnt be such an issue 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted December 31, 2015 Share Posted December 31, 2015 Junior clubs received 6-8 weeks notice of the formation of the LL, for applications to be submitted I recall the window was even shorter, it is not a complete lie, it is fact. I received the paperwork. The concept of it being "heavily discussed" is entirely different to it being confirmed, indeed there were some suggestions in Senior circles that it should be delayed given that there was no play-off on offer and it seemed rather hasty, that was brushed aside by Spartans and a few others who knew what they were doing. If you cannot appreciate that 130 years of Junior history can be brushed aside in a few weeks then you don't understand Junior football. It's been explained umpteen times over in the Junior forum. How long did it take the SFL to open up to the concept of relegation for example? As for concessions, if the set-up is a busted flush to start with then it's a busted flush regardless of how frustrating it is to deal with. A two region set-up is lunacy given the population and club spread between north of Scotland and south. There is still no promotion/relegation from the HFL/LL to anything below and not likely to be anytime soon, and brand new clubs are being dreamt up to fill the void, watch as Edusport Academy (who?) get the last LL place. The problem is, nobody is willing to hold their hands up and say they got it wrong, the media can't be bothered to look into it, the SFA think everything in the garden is rosy, and the SJFA continue to stick their fingers in their ears. Don't hold your breath on anything changing soon. Happy New Year to everyone when it comes. Being discussed and being confirmed are different, but don't pretend it came out of nowhere, clubs had time to react, maybe not as long as could have been but I doubt we'd have seen too much difference had we delayed a season, the lack of sjfa engagement would have continued. Again what history would have changed? If by understanding junior football you mean the Mon the juniors attitude then yes I'll admit that, and nobody has ever come up with an explanation why Oakley should have more of an affinity with Culter than Burntisland. The sfl had lots of issues , but the club's, did make huge changes to open up to the pyramid and if you want to talk about changing history then surely the winding up of the Sfl was huge. When can we expect anything from the SJFA? 2 region structure is the only one available with the current distribution of clubs that meet licencing standards. Oh and the Lowland League has a promotion/relegation structure with the Eos and Sos, but you knew that. Complaining about new clubs (which edusport are not, they have actively engaged in the pyramid structure over the last few seasons, seeking to improve on and off the park) is silly, these clubs have as much right as anyone else to compete in the leagues. No big changes are happening, and it doesn't look like that can be expected when we don't seem to have open discussion between different parties, we now have a slightly changed dynamic from what we've had, instead of egotistical junior clubs shouting over the fence at the Sfl moaning about ground requirements and travel we now have egotistical junior clubs shouting about the Lowland League, and it's ground requirements and travel 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 Being discussed and being confirmed are different, but don't pretend it came out of nowhere, clubs had time to react, maybe not as long as could have been but I doubt we'd have seen too much difference had we delayed a season, the lack of sjfa engagement would have continued. Again what history would have changed? If by understanding junior football you mean the Mon the juniors attitude then yes I'll admit that, and nobody has ever come up with an explanation why Oakley should have more of an affinity with Culter than Burntisland. The sfl had lots of issues , but the club's, did make huge changes to open up to the pyramid and if you want to talk about changing history then surely the winding up of the Sfl was huge. When can we expect anything from the SJFA? 2 region structure is the only one available with the current distribution of clubs that meet licencing standards. Oh and the Lowland League has a promotion/relegation structure with the Eos and Sos, but you knew that. Complaining about new clubs (which edusport are not, they have actively engaged in the pyramid structure over the last few seasons, seeking to improve on and off the park) is silly, these clubs have as much right as anyone else to compete in the leagues. No big changes are happening, and it doesn't look like that can be expected when we don't seem to have open discussion between different parties, we now have a slightly changed dynamic from what we've had, instead of egotistical junior clubs shouting over the fence at the Sfl moaning about ground requirements and travel we now have egotistical junior clubs shouting about the Lowland League, and it's ground requirements and travel OK, let's not re-write history, the LL was announced/confirmed at short notice, that is why 0 Junior clubs applied. Remember that almost all Junior clubs (over 90%) responded to an SJFA survey saying they agreed with the concept of a Pyramid, and around 30 clubs stated they would be interested in joining it. So with that kind of support, ask yourself why nobody applied initially, and nobody has applied since. I refer you back to my busted flush scenario. The Junior Cup is a large piece of Junior history, giving up that and local derby games is not something that clubs will do at a drop of a hat to go and play University sides and glorified youth sides with a few weeks notice. The bigger Junior clubs have far more to lose than those clubs already playing in the EoSFL and SoSFL, who have nothing to lose. Remember, we're talking about clubs who actually have a decent sized support base. There is no confirmed mechanism between the HFL and any other league considered below it. How do you join the HFL? Will a licenced winner of the EoSFL and/ore SoSFL be promoted automatically this year with relegation? probably not. Who are the egotistical Junior clubs shouting? nobody as far as I can see, although what I can see is Linlithgow Rose and Banks O'Dee who are licenced, Haddington Athletic and Auchinleck Talbot going down the road of being licenced, with others to follow. Maybe it's the Junior clubs who can see the wood from the trees, they are seeing the benefits of licencing but are just not prepared to join a deeply flawed "pyramid" system until it's reformed. Maybe it's time those involved in the system admit that flaws exist and come and talk to Junior clubs, but there will be elements within the LL and HFL who are quite content to see the Juniors sit on the sidelines whilst welcoming the likes of Edusport. Happy New Year! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 OK, let's not re-write history, the LL was announced/confirmed at short notice, that is why 0 Junior clubs applied. Remember that almost all Junior clubs (over 90%) responded to an SJFA survey saying they agreed with the concept of a Pyramid, and around 30 clubs stated they would be interested in joining it. So with that kind of support, ask yourself why nobody applied initially, and nobody has applied since. I refer you back to my busted flush scenario. The Junior Cup is a large piece of Junior history, giving up that and local derby games is not something that clubs will do at a drop of a hat to go and play University sides and glorified youth sides with a few weeks notice. The bigger Junior clubs have far more to lose than those clubs already playing in the EoSFL and SoSFL, who have nothing to lose. Remember, we're talking about clubs who actually have a decent sized support base. Believe only licensed clubs were guaranteed LL entry, so you can't say you were going to play uni sides etc the perceived quality of the opposition(playing with better off - field standards, and matching the Junior elite on the park btw) didn't exist. Not playing in the Junior cup was never and still isn't a requirement of joining the Lowland League. If you want an answer why nobody applied then the actions of the SJFA take nearly all the blame. junior clubs haven't applied because they employ a selection of morally questionable numpties to represent them , and are not willing to properly challenge them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 LL didn't require a licence to be in place straight from the off, as I say the short notice played the major part in Junior clubs not applying from the start. The LL has now moved on to admitting the likes of BSC and Colts which, along with the Uni sides, further damage the credibility of the league in the eyes of the Juniors. I'd agree with them and I'm puzzled by the SPFL clubs agreeing to relegation into a league that doesn't contain some of the best non league clubs in the country. I have always maintained the SJFA were hugely at fault for the shambles we see before us now. They could have played a major part in shaping the structure but chose not to. However, if there is a will the structure can be altered and Junior clubs can be enticed to take part. As I said there are plenty who would be willing to give the pyramid a go given the right conditions. That would require the SFA to admit they got it wrong. That won't happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 LL didn't require a licence to be in place straight from the off, as I say the short notice played the major part in Junior clubs not applying from the start. The LL has now moved on to admitting the likes of BSC and Colts which, along with the Uni sides, further damage the credibility of the league in the eyes of the Juniors. I'd agree with them and I'm puzzled by the SPFL clubs agreeing to relegation into a league that doesn't contain some of the best non league clubs in the country. Didn't say it did, just that clubs with licences were guaranteed entry. Given the uni sides , EK, colts and BSC have all gained licences, along with showing themselves well capable on the park there surely needs to be an admittance they are valid clubs to be involved? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 kinda off topic from the most recent posts, but wont bigger leagues simply kill crowds in the 2nd half of the season for most teams, a time when money is crucial for most teams say there is 16 teams in the top league, say top 6 are all battling it out for some form of euro placement, and a bottom 4 are slugging it out for relegation, even a bottom 6, that still leaves the potential for a quarter of the league to be stuck in the middle with heehaw to play for, could easily be more by xmas time as well maybe the first season clubs would get a boost in ticket numbers as its something fresh, but in the 2nd season you might find a good number of teams struggle to shift ST's because fans know they can pick and choose their games especially later in the season when their games are glorified friendlies to them not saying 4 times a season that we have now is any better, but bigger leagues only work if the fanbase is there, and tbh imo it isnt here i know its a terrible time of the year, but recent hamilton v inverness pulled 1555 fans, can anyone say for certain that number wouldnt go down if the game was in say late january and both teams were virtually secure in the league due to some early season decent form 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effeffsee_the2nd Posted January 1, 2016 Share Posted January 1, 2016 kinda off topic from the most recent posts, but wont bigger leagues simply kill crowds in the 2nd half of the season for most teams, a time when money is crucial for most teams say there is 16 teams in the top league, say top 6 are all battling it out for some form of euro placement, and a bottom 4 are slugging it out for relegation, even a bottom 6, that still leaves the potential for a quarter of the league to be stuck in the middle with heehaw to play for, could easily be more by xmas time as well maybe the first season clubs would get a boost in ticket numbers as its something fresh, but in the 2nd season you might find a good number of teams struggle to shift ST's because fans know they can pick and choose their games especially later in the season when their games are glorified friendlies to them not saying 4 times a season that we have now is any better, but bigger leagues only work if the fanbase is there, and tbh imo it isnt here i know its a terrible time of the year, but recent hamilton v inverness pulled 1555 fans, can anyone say for certain that number wouldnt go down if the game was in say late january and both teams were virtually secure in the league due to some early season decent form you cant get rid of that all together no , but 16 should cut down the number of meaningless games most seasons, better than playing 4 times but not as big a mid table as a league of 18 or 20 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 Didn't say it did, just that clubs with licences were guaranteed entry. Given the uni sides , EK, colts and BSC have all gained licences, along with showing themselves well capable on the park there surely needs to be an admittance they are valid clubs to be involved? The fact these clubs (EK, BSC, Colts, Uni sides) have jumped straight into the 5th tier ahead of established football clubs with a fan base highlights whats wrong with how the "pyramid" was introduced and set-up. Only EK have shown that they can develop a fan base. In any normal pyramid, EK, Colts and BSC start at the very bottom. In Scotland, they bypass 160+ clubs. Not their fault, they're just taking advantage of a flawed system. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 If even a handful of Junior clubs had actually applied to the Lowland League, the "pyramid" would look rather different. Instead they did nothing and we now have the EoS/SoS tacked on the end of the Lowland side. With the Highland clubs carrying on regardless and being able to freeze out the likes of Banks O'Dee. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilky1878 Posted January 2, 2016 Share Posted January 2, 2016 The fact these clubs (EK, BSC, Colts, Uni sides) have jumped straight into the 5th tier ahead of established football clubs with a fan base highlights whats wrong with how the "pyramid" was introduced and set-up. Only EK have shown that they can develop a fan base. In any normal pyramid, EK, Colts and BSC start at the very bottom. In Scotland, they bypass 160+ clubs. Not their fault, they're just taking advantage of a flawed system. They don't bypass 160+ clubs all they bypass is the east of scotland or south of Scotland league as the juniors is a different setup. You can't sit on your perch in the juniors refusing to come over and join then claim that other clubs are bypassing you if they do join. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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