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Mr Bairn

League reconstruction: Let's hear your view

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Jeez that Mexican system is good. Imagine a league in which more than 2 teams think they might win it... (Who'd have guessed that such a concept could increase crowds).

In my head - to end the utter tedium of the current catastrophic setup of Scottish football - I've split the leagues into East and West. It's actually a decent wee competition at the moment. 

 

East 

Aberdeen 52 pts

Hibs 51 pts

Hearts 39 pts

St Johnstone 30 pts

Dundee 28 pts

Ross C 21 pts

 

West

Celtic 64 pts

Rangers 58 pts

Kilmarnock 40 pts

Motherwell 35 pts

Hamilton 26 pts

Partick Th 24 pts

 

After 33 games, the last 5 matches are within your own division. At the end of the season the two league winners play off for the title at Hampden. The 2nd and 3rd place teams in both leagues all play off for the remaining European place. And the bottom sides in each division have a relegation match against the winners of the East/West lower divisions. 

I'd actually rather that the top 6 just play off for the title, but I don't want to be too radical. I mean, I'd also share revenue and introduce salary caps but these are obviously unfair as the Old Firm deserve more money for having more gloryhunters, sorry, fans. More fans. 

Anyway it'll be an exciting end of the season when the playoffs do arrive, I'm excited for it. 

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5 hours ago, tamba_trio said:

Jeez that Mexican system is good. Imagine a league in which more than 2 teams think they might win it... (Who'd have guessed that such a concept could increase crowds).

In my head - to end the utter tedium of the current catastrophic setup of Scottish football - I've split the leagues into East and West. It's actually a decent wee competition at the moment. 

 

East 

Aberdeen 52 pts

Hibs 51 pts

Hearts 39 pts

St Johnstone 30 pts

Dundee 28 pts

Ross C 21 pts

 

West

Celtic 64 pts

Rangers 58 pts

Kilmarnock 40 pts

Motherwell 35 pts

Hamilton 26 pts

Partick Th 24 pts

 

After 33 games, the last 5 matches are within your own division. At the end of the season the two league winners play off for the title at Hampden. The 2nd and 3rd place teams in both leagues all play off for the remaining European place. And the bottom sides in each division have a relegation match against the winners of the East/West lower divisions. 

I'd actually rather that the top 6 just play off for the title, but I don't want to be too radical. I mean, I'd also share revenue and introduce salary caps but these are obviously unfair as the Old Firm deserve more money for having more gloryhunters, sorry, fans. More fans. 

Anyway it'll be an exciting end of the season when the playoffs do arrive, I'm excited for it. 

Applying a version of the Liga MX Apertura/Clausura (Winter/Spring) to our league, (where the top 4 playoff for the "titles") would see the following tables for Apertura (top) and the Clausura (bottom) which has just started.

In this example, although Celtic won the top seeding spot for playoffs pretty comfortably, the race for 2nd/3rd went to the wire and the final place in the playoffs was decided on round 21 when Hibs drew at Tynecastle. Now much as an auld reekie derby is pretty tensa anyway this would have cranked it up a few notches, surely.

Starting over from scratch completely changes the dynamic of the league as the bottom table demonstrates. Hibs & Kilmarnock fans, given their teams current form, would genuinely believe they have a chance of finishing top of the table. That, surely, would bring in extra fans? No?

9rjexx.png

 

Edited by EdTheDuck

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I love the idea of shorter seasons Ed, it makes so much sense.  Other teams with a chance to win the league.... it's incredible that such a thought is considered radical. 

Two 16 game seasons, then playoffs for the title. Money distributed evenly. A salary cap (a soft one, it doesn't need to be as strict as the NFL). More teams with a chance to win the title. Jeez, we might even get a decent TV deal if such a thing happened. 

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1 hour ago, tamba_trio said:

I love the idea of shorter seasons Ed, it makes so much sense.  Other teams with a chance to win the league.... it's incredible that such a thought is considered radical. 

Two 16 game seasons, then playoffs for the title. Money distributed evenly. A salary cap (a soft one, it doesn't need to be as strict as the NFL). More teams with a chance to win the title. Jeez, we might even get a decent TV deal if such a thing happened. 

European football is remarkabley conservative. Scottish football unbelievably so. There is an aceptance of, with apologies to Craig Levein, a ‘natural order’.  The old clichés “the best team over the season wins the league” and “the league table doesn’t lie” are so instilled in European football thinking they are accepted not just as fact but a means to an end in themselves, in as much that it doesn’t matter if the traditional First-Past-The-Post is actually damaging the game as long as “the best team wins the league”.

There is more chance of nailing a jelly to the ceiling than there is of the fuckwits involved in Scottish football ever introducing short-seasons, playoffs, revenue sharing or anything else of that ilk.

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17 hours ago, EdTheDuck said:

European football is remarkabley conservative. Scottish football unbelievably so. There is an aceptance of, with apologies to Craig Levein, a ‘natural order’.  The old clichés “the best team over the season wins the league” and “the league table doesn’t lie” are so instilled in European football thinking they are accepted not just as fact but a means to an end in themselves, in as much that it doesn’t matter if the traditional First-Past-The-Post is actually damaging the game as long as “the best team wins the league”.

 

There is more chance of nailing a jelly to the ceiling than there is of the fuckwits involved in Scottish football ever introducing short-seasons, playoffs, revenue sharing or anything else of that ilk.

 

How do you change that tho?  I Think most people would baulk at "American style gimmicks" plus I'd imagine celtic would go to the ends of the earth to block such a proposal

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2 hours ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

How do you change that tho?  I Think most people would baulk at "American style gimmicks" plus I'd imagine celtic would go to the ends of the earth to block such a proposal

If Celtic went to the ends of the earth, that would mean the rest of us might have a chance of winning something...

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2 hours ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

How do you change that tho?  I Think most people would baulk at "American style gimmicks" plus I'd imagine celtic would go to the ends of the earth to block such a proposal

It won't change. It's just nice to imagine it sometimes. Let's face it, none of us are going to live to see the title won outside of Glasgow again. I heard the Sportsound crew celebrating earlier on that we don't talk about reconstruction any more - things are great now apparently. And - by God - do Willie Miller and company hate talking about reconstruction. Which is a damn shame, because this thread and these discussions are interesting and worthy of debate.

The same people who belittle American style gimmicks are those who boast about having to get a calculator out when goal difference decides something. They're idiots. They haven't yet realised that Scottish football is no longer the biggest sport in Scotland. If we want it to ever return to that status we will need to change and to innovate and maybe even learn from other sports and other parts of the world. 

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3 hours ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

How do you change that tho?  I Think most people would baulk at "American style gimmicks" plus I'd imagine celtic would go to the ends of the earth to block such a proposal

You don’t change it I’m afraid.

You're right because 'most people' accept the clichés, including that hoary old chestnut 'American style gimmicks'. It’s bandied around as an insult, suggesting that these Americanisms simply wouldn't do in our game because we're above such crass manipulation. Jesus, just look at the hair-pulling, teeth-gnashing torment our wee split causes.

At its worst; 'real' fans follow their team come Hell or high water and the need for adding incentives such as playoffs or splits is catering to glory hunters and part-timers, in fact ‘real fans’ are glad their teams don’t win titles because it would dilute the ‘realness’ of their support, they’d be as bad as Old Firm fans.

IMO the short seasons, splits, playoffs and the like are a recognition of human nature. It’s natural for more fans to turn out for games that have something hanging on them rather than dead rubbers.

As for Celtic, the Yanks have provided the ‘gimmick’ that would deal with their prime concern. The best team over the season in the MLS get a spot in the CONCACAF Champions League. Bingo! As long as they get their £30M I’m sure they would be happy enough to pass on something as minor as a trophy or a worthless label like champion.

Anyway, it isn't going to happen.

Even the split we have was no more than a pragmatic solution to a problem rather than an innovation. It was designed to allow enlargement to 12 teams but there was insufficient dates for 44 league games - the split was the compromise.  If the big clubs get their way it would be gone, we'd have a top ten. If the smaller clubs get their way it will be gone , we'd have a top 16 or 18. The vast majority of football administrators, fans, journalists would dismiss playoffs, split seasons and the like without hesitation because our game "is too important"

 

Edited by EdTheDuck

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9 hours ago, DARREN38 said:

I would Merger Scottish Premier League with Division 1 and Division 2 and 3 into something like below

Scottish Premier League of 18 clubs with 1 go down and two going into relegation play offs

Scottish Championship of 18 or 16 Clubs with 1 going up and 2 through to 9 entering play offs(the formula Dutch Football uses)

Renamed Division 2 and 3 as Division 1 featuring 22 Semi-pro clubs. With 1 promotion and no relegation.

The rest of the clubs would be in regional Amatuer leagues with promotion between them.

 

Scottish FA Cup i would add Group stage of four groups of four at the Quarter final level

The Scottish League cup would be restricted to Semi-Pro teams only

 

The Dutch play-off formula is a mess, I wouldn't use that. Also, your set-up wouldn't work, 18 would be too many for the SPL. And we're just moving to a pyramid system, while you want to stop relegation?

And groups in the cup? No thanks...

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Adopt the south American formula like Mexico. It would give more interest and competitive football.

Especially if it was introduced to every part of Scottish football not just premier league

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The final Clausura table except 6 games short cuz the Split, ken. Anyway Hibernian are the Clausura champions, hurrah! :cake

image.png

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22 minutes ago, DARREN38 said:

Adopt the south American formula like Mexico. It would give more interest and competitive football.

Especially if it was introduced to every part of Scottish football not just premier league

Which South American formula though?

The Mexicans use the apertura/clausura with playoffs, as do the Colombians, Costa Rica, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Venezuela

Whereas Paraguay, Peru, Uruguay use the apertura/clausura without playoffs

Brazil and Chile use the European double round robin while Argentina currently has a 28 team Primera Divisione that plays each other once.

South/Central American fitba is extremely varied and changeable...or mental if you prefer.

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Darren seems to be another example of an expert on league reconstruction borne from experience on computer games, rather than reality.

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The possibility of the Highland League even trying to have mid-season playoffs a la Mexico would be something to see, clubs cramming 8 games into a week…

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5 hours ago, EdTheDuck said:

The final Clausura table except 6 games short cuz the Split, ken. Anyway Hibernian are the Clausura champions, hurrah! :cake

image.png

So... Hibs dramatically won the title courtesy of a dramatic injury time equaliser in a 5-5 draw.

Rangers went from champions to fourth because of that goal. 

The top five teams finished within 2 points of each other. 

Na.... that'd never work. 18 teams. Play each other twice. Yawn. 

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17 hours ago, tamba_trio said:

So... Hibs dramatically won the title courtesy of a dramatic injury time equaliser in a 5-5 draw.

Rangers went from champions to fourth because of that goal. 

The top five teams finished within 2 points of each other. 

Na.... that'd never work. 18 teams. Play each other twice. Yawn. 

Of course, it wouldn't always be like that...

We have to go all the way back to 2015-16 to find a reasonably close call, the Winter League (Apertura) ended like this;

image.png.64552651a17c1db8947ffc5fd7d7a44a.png

On the second last round, however, Celtic drew at Dundee and Aberdeen had the chance to get within 2 points...but they drew as well.

Before that it's all the way back to ...  the season before and again the Spring League, it ended

image.png.209c226faa4cb903c25a9216765f785e.png

On the final day Aberdeen just had to beat Dundee at Pittodrie to win the Winter/Apertura title...and they blew it, a 3-3 draw

Prior to that it was a whole 2 years before the previous close call and this is a doozy, it kind of demonstrates why the split season is such an attractive proposition to me. I appreciate the Spring (Clausura) League is 6 games short because of the Split but with 2 rounds left the top of that table would have looked like this

image.png.c5c64708b6ccc2e251126c97554e2e1e.png

As it happened Celtic won by 3 points from Ross County & 4 from Motherwell but the interest with a couple games to play would surely have been through the roof

The thing about the short season is that the 'smaller' clubs can go on a good run that would get them in the mix where over the 38 game 9-month slog resources just make it impossible for Motherwell, Ross County or Aberdeen to compete.

You spoke about an 18 team league and if we were going to have one, this would be the way to do it, with a split season. With only 1game against each of the OF(RIP) and additional games against weaker opposition, the likes of Hibs, Aberdeen, Hearts and Motherwell and Ross County would likely have an even better chance of making a real impression at the top of the table in one half or the other.

Even McInnes, surely, wouldn't be able to state "we can't win the league" in such circumstances?

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It is to Scottish footballs credit that they've created the most predictable sports league imaginable. That takes skill. And they've not noticed that 35 years of the title being won by the same city dilutes interest. 

How's about 16 teams... Play each other once. And you play the teams closest to you in the league an extra time. So top 4 get two games against each other, and so on.  Poorer teams get slightly easier fixtures. 

And we can share revenue a bit too. It doesn't even need to be a hard salary cap. But it'd be nice to maybe only be the second or third least competitive league in the Universe. 

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