League reconstruction: Let's hear your view

[EdTheDuck]

42 minutes ago, MALLEY said:

New Member, so apologies if this idea or something similar has been made on this thread. 

What about a 16-16-16 proposal?

The 3Rd tier could be made up of the existing 10 league 2 teams plus the 6 best Colts teams. The remaining colts teams could be split between Highland/Lowland Leagues. The colt teams could be relegated and promoted within the league structure but not into Premiership obviously. Also they wouldn't be promoted into same league as there senior side if that situation arose. 

 

 

 

No reserve teams in the league thanks all the same. They are an affront to decency.

[Unknown Fan]

True though the Portuguese league has prospered with a big 18 team top division and a second tier with 20 teams which includes 5 b teams.  Their 3rd tier has 80 clubs over several regional leagues.   Similar demographic of support for clubs too 5 clubs that can command 10,000 plus average gate.  Several of their clubs have made it through to group stages of Europa and Champions league though them do seem to benefit from a large influx of African and Brazilian South American player due to language and geography.

The other example country for comparison would be Sweden.  Summer football 16 team league, interesting thing there is they still have their cup final at the end of spring.  So for traditionalists the end of May cup final could be kept if summer football was ever motioned.   

[Unknown Fan]

To add to that since the start of the Europa league in 2009-10;

Portugal has had 10 different teams qualify for the group stages, and a handful of the them multiple times. 

The Swedish league has had 5. 

Even the League of Ireland has had 2.

Scotland has had one.

[Cyclizine]

We've had this discussion multiple times. Have a read through the thread, there's no appetite for colt teams. A 30 game season is too short. Portugal's second division is a total mismatch of clubs, which is what you'd get here too. As maligned as they are, the 10 team divisions here are competitive up to the end.

[EdTheDuck]

5 hours ago, Unknown Fan said:

To add to that since the start of the Europa league in 2009-10;

Portugal has had 10 different teams qualify for the group stages, and a handful of the them multiple times. 

The Swedish league has had 5. 

Even the League of Ireland has had 2.

Scotland has had one.

Switzerland (with a population nearer to ours) has managed 8 teams in the EL group stage since 2009 with a 10-10 set up playing winter league. Austria also with population more like ours and a 10-10 set up has managed 4 teams (multiple times).

The size of the league is of no consequence. Coaching and development of players is. Ours is rank rotten.

 

[RabidAl]

19 hours ago, MALLEY said:

New Member, so apologies if this idea or something similar has been made on this thread. 

What about a 16-16-16 proposal?

The 3Rd tier could be made up of the existing 10 league 2 teams plus the 6 best Colts teams. The remaining colts teams could be split between Highland/Lowland Leagues. The colt teams could be relegated and promoted within the league structure but not into Premiership obviously. Also they wouldn't be promoted into same league as there senior side if that situation arose. 

Well, according to surveys of fans published in 2013* and 2016**, 54-62% of supporters favour 3 professional tiers and 51% favour a 16-team top league, so you seem to be in agreement with the majority there. 

The idea of colt teams tends to be deeply unpopular around here (possibly because it's often conflated with the idea of B teams) although I don't know whether it has ever been surveyed or tested more widely in Scottish football.

It might depend upon why you want to introduce colt teams and whether you would be prepared to see competition at lower levels potentially being distorted by their introduction.

 *

**

http://www.scottishsupporters.net/survey/2016-2/

[Unknown Fan]

15 hours ago, EdTheDuck said:

Switzerland (with a population nearer to ours) has managed 8 teams in the EL group stage since 2009 with a 10-10 set up playing winter league. Austria also with population more like ours and a 10-10 set up has managed 4 teams (multiple times).

The size of the league is of no consequence. Coaching and development of players is. Ours is rank rotten.

 

So Ed what you're saying you would be in the favor of the Status quo?  The topic of this thread is league reconstruction.

Secondly in Ireland football (soccer it is called in places so not to be confused with Gaelic Football) is the 4th sport in terms of supported and 2nd 3rd in participation.  In Southern Ireland it is a summer sport in line with Gaelic games.   Many young apprentices come back from England and Scotland at an early age can use the League as a spring board to a possible move back to England and a help to late developers.   As it is a summer league it helps in improving the style of play, the product on show improves with better condition of pitches and puts players in the shop window especially if the club they are playing for has a good European run.  Several players have moved to the English Championship over the last couple of seasons and even this week David McMillan at the age of 28 has moved to St Johnstone.  The Northern Irish league is improving with attendances and in a country where football is the number one sport, though that they play a traditional winter season the benefits and prospects for clubs in Europe and players getting a big cross channel move alike are diminished.  

The League of Ireland in playing summer football is playing the percentage game and it's working.  Many in Ireland still see it as a laughing stock league.  It is a closed shop 20 teams over 2 divisions up to this year 12-8 now for 2018 reverting to 10-10 with the 2nd tier playing 27 game season instead of 36.  League starting next year in mid February and runs to end of October with the cup final the week after.  Scotland could try something similar though with the Cup final in May as always and the league finishing end of November. 

I doubt Ireland has miles better coaching and development, it definitely doesn't have better facilities.  I'd put it down to the Scottish ideal diet of battered everything than anything else or that there are too many fingers in the pie screwing up the structure of the Scottish football system.  Leaving the Juniors to one side for now,  there are Amateur leagues that have a larger geographical range than the EoS a tier 6 pyramid league.  Also there are several top Amateur league teams especially in the West of Scotland that wouldn't look out of place in the Lowland league.  

The summer football in Ireland helps the national team as many players once they make it over to England or Scotland not long after are awarded with a international call up.  English Championship sides can easily out bid Scottish Premiership clubs for players due to wages.  The Scottish league in most cases would be seen as a 3rd choice behind the English Premiership and Championship of the top League of Ireland players being scouted.         

14 hours ago, RabidAl said:

Well, according to surveys of fans published in 2013* and 2016**, 54-62% of supporters favour 3 professional tiers and 51% favour a 16-team top league, so you seem to be in agreement with the majority there. 

 

A 3 tier National system I would be in favour of, though at best of the 42 SPFL clubs half of them are full time and doubt that'll change too dramatically over the coming seasons no matter what ever league structure the 42 national clubs are divided into.

Though are we missing something here, since the 42 clubs now all fall under one body the SPFL the changing of the size of the leagues and especially the top division is a 42 club decision instead of the old top tier 2 club veto voting system.  Hence there is a greater likelihood of change due to the change in the way voting would now be conducted?  Can anyone clarify this for me please?  

It would be great if the Championship sides and the bottom Premiership sides group together to vote in a 18 team top division.  Be great to see teams like Morton, Ayr and Queen of the South get a chance of a season or 2 in the top flight, a return of a Fife club to the top possibly 2.  For developing Scottish players surely that would be the way forward.  Better chance of a promising youngster not getting his chance leaving a big club to make a go of it with Ayr or Morton in an expanded top division. More exposure for more players playing at a higher standard within Scottish football would be for the benefit of the Scottish game and national team as a whole.    

Also as the clubs are all in the SPFL the 6,000 seater capacity stadium to play in the top flight I doubt this is still a requirement?  So Palmerston Park would be fit for Premiership football as it stands with less than 4,000 seats?     

Edited December 21, 2017 by Unknown Fan

[EdTheDuck]

8 hours ago, Unknown Fan said:

So Ed what you're saying you would be in the favor of the Status quo?  The topic of this thread is league reconstruction.

Secondly in Ireland football (soccer it is called in places so not to be confused with Gaelic Football) is the 4th sport in terms of supported and 2nd 3rd in participation.  In Southern Ireland it is a summer sport in line with Gaelic games.   Many young apprentices come back from England and Scotland at an early age can use the League as a spring board to a possible move back to England and a help to late developers.   As it is a summer league it helps in improving the style of play, the product on show improves with better condition of pitches and puts players in the shop window especially if the club they are playing for has a good European run.  Several players have moved to the English Championship over the last couple of seasons and even this week David McMillan at the age of 28 has moved to St Johnstone.  The Northern Irish league is improving with attendances and in a country where football is the number one sport, though that they play a traditional winter season the benefits and prospects for clubs in Europe and players getting a big cross channel move alike are diminished.  

The League of Ireland in playing summer football is playing the percentage game and it's working.  Many in Ireland still see it as a laughing stock league.  It is a closed shop 20 teams over 2 divisions up to this year 12-8 now for 2018 reverting to 10-10 with the 2nd tier playing 27 game season instead of 36.  League starting next year in mid February and runs to end of October with the cup final the week after.  Scotland could try something similar though with the Cup final in May as always and the league finishing end of November. 

I doubt Ireland has miles better coaching and development, it definitely doesn't have better facilities.  I'd put it down to the Scottish ideal diet of battered everything than anything else or that there are too many fingers in the pie screwing up the structure of the Scottish football system.  Leaving the Juniors to one side for now,  there are Amateur leagues that have a larger geographical range than the EoS a tier 6 pyramid league.  Also there are several top Amateur league teams especially in the West of Scotland that wouldn't look out of place in the Lowland league.  

The summer football in Ireland helps the national team as many players once they make it over to England or Scotland not long after are awarded with a international call up.  English Championship sides can easily out bid Scottish Premiership clubs for players due to wages.  The Scottish league in most cases would be seen as a 3rd choice behind the English Premiership and Championship of the top League of Ireland players being scouted.         

A 3 tier National system I would be in favour of, though at best of the 42 SPFL clubs half of them are full time and doubt that'll change too dramatically over the coming seasons no matter what ever league structure the 42 national clubs are divided into.

Though are we missing something here, since the 42 clubs now all fall under one body the SPFL the changing of the size of the leagues and especially the top division is a 42 club decision instead of the old top tier 2 club veto voting system.  Hence there is a greater likelihood of change due to the change in the way voting would now be conducted?  Can anyone clarify this for me please?  

It would be great if the Championship sides and the bottom Premiership sides group together to vote in a 18 team top division.  Be great to see teams like Morton, Ayr and Queen of the South get a chance of a season or 2 in the top flight, a return of a Fife club to the top possibly 2.  For developing Scottish players surely that would be the way forward.  Better chance of a promising youngster not getting his chance leaving a big club to make a go of it with Ayr or Morton in an expanded top division. More exposure for more players playing at a higher standard within Scottish football would be for the benefit of the Scottish game and national team as a whole.    

Also as the clubs are all in the SPFL the 6,000 seater capacity stadium to play in the top flight I doubt this is still a requirement?  So Palmerston Park would be fit for Premiership football as it stands with less than 4,000 seats?     

You’re the one who linked the Portuguese 18 and Swedish 16 with qualifying for the EL groups as if it was significant. I was simply pointing out it is not. Scotland’s footballing woes (if woes there are) has nothing to do with the size of the league. It is entirely because of the way we play football from a young age through to adult.

The current league set-up we have is probably as good as it’s going to get; the split means there is something tangible for mid-table teams to aim for/avoid which creates some interest (however small) among fans and the post-split games guarantee games against your ‘peers’ and the chance to influence your season directly.

However, it is far from my preferred choice (not as far as a straightforward 16/18 team double round robin but…y’know)

I have no idea what your Irish rambling is about but its status and comparison to Scottish football is as irrelevant as the constant comparisons to the EPL and “the German Model”.

 

[MALLEY]

 Obviously the thinking behind colts teams within league is well intentioned assuming you agree it would help young players develop. I can understand the arguement it would distort competition  at the lower levels so maybe 6 would be too many. Even it was just 2 a season competing in the 3rd tier and theyd be replaced every season with the next top 2 from development league. Maybe this would give the development league a more competitive edge with the aim of getting to play a season against league sides. Changing both teams every season would mean no colt team would be promoted then, it would just be a 3rd tier experiment.

I do really like the top 16 idea above all other suggestions though. I just think we're too small a nation not to include decent sized clubs (St Mirren, Dundee United, Falkirk etc)  in the top tier. Young players within these teams would surely benefit too from playing against stronger sides. As for the 30 game season being too short, you could still do a split whether it be 8/8 or 7/9 even.

 

 

 

 

[RabidAl]

In the past i've been in favour of something similar to your suggestion of having some sort of limited colt team participation in the League, and I like the way that you propose to do it; however, I wonder if there's another way of giving youngsters more competitive experience at an early age whilst continuing to develop skills training full-time during the week. 

At the moment, my preference would be for the SFA to pay 16-19 year olds an apprenticeship wage to train with their peers full time at regional and national centres, whilst these youths at the same time being loaned out from their parent clubs to play for part-time clubs within the League, to gain match day experience in real competition.  Which would avoid undermining the integrity of the competition.

On ‎12‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 00:56, Unknown Fan said:

 A 3 tier National system I would be in favour of, though at best of the 42 SPFL clubs half of them are full time and doubt that'll change too dramatically over the coming seasons no matter what ever league structure the 42 national clubs are divided into.

Though are we missing something here, since the 42 clubs now all fall under one body the SPFL the changing of the size of the leagues and especially the top division is a 42 club decision instead of the old top tier 2 club veto voting system.  Hence there is a greater likelihood of change due to the change in the way voting would now be conducted?  Can anyone clarify this for me please?  

It would be great if the Championship sides and the bottom Premiership sides group together to vote in a 18 team top division.  Be great to see teams like Morton, Ayr and Queen of the South get a chance of a season or 2 in the top flight, a return of a Fife club to the top possibly 2.  For developing Scottish players surely that would be the way forward.  Better chance of a promising youngster not getting his chance leaving a big club to make a go of it with Ayr or Morton in an expanded top division. More exposure for more players playing at a higher standard within Scottish football would be for the benefit of the Scottish game and national team as a whole.    

Also as the clubs are all in the SPFL the 6,000 seater capacity stadium to play in the top flight I doubt this is still a requirement?  So Palmerston Park would be fit for Premiership football as it stands with less than 4,000 seats?     

Something that stood out for me during the 'reconstruction' a few years back (which did everything but restructure the League) was that the top tier somehow kept their 11-1 voting system - i.e. 11 clubs in the top tier will still have to vote for any change to the top tier size, specifically, in order for it to carry.  I believe that the old stadium capacity criteria was replaced by licencing requirements that do not focus on capacity so much as on the quality of facilities.

 

Since more than 80% of supporters are/were in favour of some sort of expansion of the top level, it does seem that those in charge were not listening - they seem to have delivered everything on page 17 of that report I referenced above, but ignored fans' actual views on page 16.

They could easily progress towards addressing fans' views by a fairly straight-forward move to 14-14-14, 39-game season with the winners of a LL-HL play-off promoted directly to tier 3.

(The issue of finding a fourth Old Firm game for TV revenues was (in my view) solved on an old thread on this forum, the pragmatic suggestion being that the OF could be deliberately drawn together in the League Cup each season to guarantee a further OF game for TV.) 

Anyhow, I think a direct move to a 16-team top level or any major change to the composition of the League would be too drastic/revolutionary for those who administer the game.  

 

-----EDIT (below)

I should say that I would be in favour of an evolutionary change from the current set up, through 14-14-14-LL/HL (which would only require a small re-organisation at SPFL level), to an eventual all-in 14-14-West/Highland/East structure.  I would hope the first change could take place immediately, with the second change happening within 10 years.

The transition from 12-10-10-10 to 14-14-14 could be managed to avoid a 'dead' season and give meaning to the leagues as follows:

1) a) The team finishing bottom place in the current Premiership would play off against 3rd, 4th, and 5th in tier 2 for one top tier place;

.....b) 1st and 2nd in the Championship  would be automatically promoted at the season's end; giving (with the play-off winners) a 14-team top tier the following season.

2) a) The 3 teams losing the Premiership play off and the 5 remaining tier 2 teams would compete in the following season's tier 2;

.....b) The top 4 teams in League One would automatically qualify for the following season's tier 2;

.....c) The remaining 6 teams in League One and the top 2 teams in League 2 would play off for the final two places in the second tier, giving a 14-team tier 2.

3) The 6 play-off losers from League One and the remaining 8 teams from League Two would form a 14-team national tier 3.

4) a) Within 10 years, combine national tier 3 with Lowland and Highland leagues of tier 4; then divide into West, Highland and East regions to form regionalised tier 3;

.....b) East region would be composed of Angus, Tay, Fife, Forth, Lothians, Borders; West region would be everything west of these; Highland would be everything north.

.....c) Juniors and remaining seniors would initially come in below this (i.e. - at tier 4) in a new West 2, a new East 2 and, possibly, separate Highland & Aberdeenshire leagues below the (tier 3) HL - all without a licencing bar, initially.

....d) Then district leagues in the 'lowlands', such as the South of Scotland FL and amateur leagues would feed into these broader regions, from tier 5 and below.

Edited December 25, 2017 by RabidAl
Duty to explain contradictions/process

[Unknown Fan]

On 12/21/2017 at 18:37, RabidAl said:

In the past i've been in favour of something similar to your suggestion of having some sort of limited colt team participation in the League, and I like the way that you propose to do it; however, I wonder if there's another way of giving youngsters more competitive experience at an early age whilst continuing to develop skills training full-time during the week. 

At the moment, my preference would be for the SFA to pay 16-19 year olds an apprenticeship wage to train with their peers full time at regional and national centres, whilst these youths at the same time being loaned out from their parent clubs to play for part-time clubs within the League, to gain match day experience in real competition.  Which would avoid undermining the integrity of the competition.

Suppose this part belongs more in a Project Brave thread though this is is how the Academy structure is graded.  

Scotland's new academy structure
Elite: Aberdeen, Celtic, Hamilton Academical, Hearts, Hibernian, Kilmarnock, Motherwell, Rangers.
Progressive: Ayr United, Dundee United, Forth Valley, Inverness Caledonian Thistle, Partick Thistle, Ross County, St Mirren, St Johnstone.
Performance: Dundee, Fife, Greenock Morton, Queen's Park.

Ross County and Morton's position in the second and third tiers respectively may be subject to appeal.

There are no Stranraer, Annan or Stirling in this list, they all have 2nd teams playing in the pyramid. 

So would only the Elite Academy teams allowed to enter at a certain level? 

There would be a double standard if any S.F.A. affiliated club to have their Colt, B, reserve team jumped into at any level higher than a Level 6 league. 

I wouldn't know what a Colt team North of the Tay would do, enter the Highland league?

It seems improbable that any Colt / B team would enter the SPFL unless there was some major shake up as you have mentioned a 3 way tier 3, with possible entry at a tier 4 league.

From above it is good to see Clubs join together to make up a youth development area in Forth Valley and Fife.  You would think similar set ups could be ran in Angus, Dumfries and the Borders. 

Scottish football is unique as by pushing B teams into the pyramid it would then probably have an inverse effect on enticing Junior teams to the pyramid by diminishing possible of quickly getting promoted with the addition of the unknown standard of Colt teams to compete against for progression.  So for that part, to make the pyramid and the Senior football set up more inviting to Junior Clubs should take precedence.  Well it clearly seems to be for fans of lower league teams.

On 12/21/2017 at 18:37, RabidAl said:

Something that stood out for me during the 'reconstruction' a few years back (which did everything but restructure the League) was that the top tier somehow kept their 11-1 voting system - i.e. 11 clubs in the top tier will still have to vote for any change to the top tier size, specifically, in order for it to carry. 

On top of all this, that the SPFL are one whole body any decision bar the number of teams in the top flight that you have now alluded too that has remained the same (11-1 vote to pass any decision).   I would have hoped that this would have changed, so it seems any change in top flight numbers only possible when a new T.V. right deal is to be bargained for?

Belgium particularly and several other Countries have very inventive league systems, any change from the 4 games against each other a season for SPFL clubs seems to be a bridge too far. 

So going with that Lower League Clubs would have to be given a big sweetener for them to vote for Colt / B Reserve teams to be added.  So the fear of Colt teams being added to League 2 seems to be an irrational one.  Again the same could be said for the Highland and Lowland league.

A Tier 6 West of Scotland League is the major missing piece to the pyramid with guaranteed promotion for at least one of the Lowland or Highland Champions next on the list.  Sizes of the leagues seems to be either set in stone or near impossible to change as voting is so skewed and self interest reigns that discussion on the topic is next to redundant.

One thing is that there was an Amateur league named the West of Scotland up to last season mostly maded up of teams from Argyll and Dumbartonshire that is now defunct.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_of_Scotland_Amateur_Football_League

Edited December 28, 2017 by Unknown Fan

[RabidAl]

On ‎12‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 00:56, Unknown Fan said:

 Also as the clubs are all in the SPFL the 6,000 seater capacity stadium to play in the top flight I doubt this is still a requirement?  So Palmerston Park would be fit for Premiership football as it stands with less than 4,000 seats?     

I may have found an answer to this one.  The 2017/18 SPFL Membership Criteria of the League refers to:

"...Clubs in the Ladbrokes Premiership and Ladbrokes Championship comply with the stadia criteria at the Scottish FA Bronze Standard",

which is on page 4, see: https://spfl.co.uk/spfl/

Page 33 (actual page number, not pdf version) of the Scottish FA Club Licencing Manual 2018 in their Bronze criteria for Spectator Areas (5.13) states:

"Minimum level of capacity is 500 covered places." and "There may be seats and standing." ,

which can be found at: https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/2881/scottish-fa-club-licensing-manual-2018.pdf

Make what you will of that...

1 hour ago, Unknown Fan said:

Suppose this part belongs more in a Project Brave thread though this is is how the Academy structure is graded.  

Scotland's new academy structure
Elite: Aberdeen, Celtic, Hamilton Academical, Hearts, Hibernian, Kilmarnock, Motherwell, Rangers.
Progressive: Ayr United, Dundee United, Forth Valley, Inverness Caledonian Thistle, Partick Thistle, Ross County, St Mirren, St Johnstone.
Performance: Dundee, Fife, Greenock Morton, Queen's Park.

Ross County and Morton's position in the second and third tiers respectively may be subject to appeal.

There are no Stranraer, Annan or Stirling in this list, they all have 2nd teams playing in the pyramid. 

So would only the Elite Academy teams allowed to enter at a certain level? 

There would be a double standard if any S.F.A. affiliated club to have their Colt, B, reserve team jumped into at any level higher than a Level 6 league. 

I wouldn't know what a Colt team North of the Tay would do, enter the Highland league?

It seems improbable that any Colt / B team would enter the SPFL unless there was some major shake up as you have mentioned a 3 way tier 3, with possible entry at a tier 4 league.

From above it is good to see Clubs join together to make up a youth development area in Forth Valley and Fife.  You would think similar set ups could be ran in Angus, Dumfries and the Borders. 

Scottish football is unique as by pushing B teams into the pyramid it would then probably have an inverse effect on enticing Junior teams to the pyramid by diminishing possible of quickly getting promoted with the addition of the unknown standard of Colt teams to compete against for progression.  So for that part, to make the pyramid and the Senior football set up more inviting to Junior Clubs should take precedence.  Well it clearly seems to be for fans of lower league teams.

On top of all this, that the SPFL are one whole body any decision bar the number of teams in the top flight that you have now alluded too that has remained the same (11-1 vote to pass any decision).   I would have hoped that this would have changed, so it seems any change in top flight numbers only possible when a new T.V. right deal is to be bargained for?

Belgium particularly and several other Countries have very inventive league systems, any change from the 4 games against each other a season for SPFL clubs seems to be a bridge too far. 

So going with that Lower League Clubs would have to be given a big sweetener for them to vote for Colt / B Reserve teams to be added.  So the fear of Colt teams being added to League 2 seems to be an irrational one.  Again the same could be said for the Highland and Lowland league.

A Tier 6 West of Scotland League is the major missing piece to the pyramid with guaranteed promotion for at least one of the Lowland or Highland Champions next on the list.  Sizes of the leagues seems to be either set in stone or near impossible to change as voting is so skewed and self interest reigns that discussion on the topic is next to redundant.

One thing is that there was an Amateur league named the West of Scotland up to last season mostly maded up of teams from Argyll and Dunbartonshire that is now defunct.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_of_Scotland_Amateur_Football_League

Regarding elite academies, that may just be referring to teams as they progress through the age groups who will play against each other, mostly in those groupings of clubs, all of their time as youths (up until they're under 18s, for example).  It may be that clubs are then looking to further develop these players into under 20 colts teams, entered in the non-league/lower leagues, as they 'mature' from the academy system - but i'm not sure how that can fit with Malky Mackay's stated desire to see a return of reserve team football (which never produced great players either). 

I'd prefer not to see any sort of second team in the leagues at all - whether it's Stranraer in the South, or Hibs in the East - and would rather not see restructuring at all if that is the rub.  If we must have colts in the leagues, then they would be better as composite teams of the best youngsters in a given region instead of anything that might segue into clubs' B teams.  

I agree with you about the West of Scotland League being a major missing piece - the SFA have been negligent in their handling of the pyramid at that level, expecting west juniors from Glasgow, for example, to play their way through a district league in the South isn't very clever; there's also a need for a non-league cup to be established that will help replace the Scottish Junior Cup for clubs who are afraid of losing the national trophy that they have a realistic chance of winning.

You may be right about the voting intentions and possibilities of the clubs - the politics of all that is way beyond me!

 

[EdTheDuck]

Although this is alien to Scotland, superimposing the MLB system onto our 12 team league demonstrates the attraction of the US method of ‘regional’ divisions and playoffs. While our championship is long since dead in the water, this keeps the season alive for 8 teams. (The 3 division winners qualify for the playoffs. The next best 2 teams qualify for a ‘second chance’ game, a Repechage or Wild Card game that gets the winner a place in the playoffs and keeps their season alive.)

While this is insanely beyond anything Scotland Football would ever consider it shows how new life could be breathed into even a league as lop-sided and uncompetitive as ours.

 

North				seed
Aberdeen FC	21	9	42	2
St. Johnstone FC	20	-7	26		Wildcard Standings
Dundee FC	21	-11	19		Rangers FC	21	16	39
Ross County FC	21	-13	17		Heart of Midlothian	21	2	29
					St. Johnstone FC	20	-7	26
East					Kilmarnock FC	20	-3	25
Hibernian FC	21	4	34	3	Motherwell FC	20	-4	24
Heart of Midlothian	21	2	29	5
Motherwell FC	20	-4	24
Hamilton Academical	20	-6	20
					Wild Card/Repechage
West					Rangers-v-Heart of Midlothian
Celtic FC	21	33	50	1
Rangers FC	21	16	39	4	Playoffs
Kilmarnock FC	20	-3	25		Caltic-v-Wildcard winner
Partick Thistle	21	-20	17		Aberdeen-v-Hibs
					Championship Game
					Higher seed-v-Lower seed

 

[Unknown Fan]

1 hour ago, EdTheDuck said:

Although this is alien to Scotland, superimposing the MLB system onto our 12 team league demonstrates the attraction of the US method of ‘regional’ divisions and playoffs. While our championship is long since dead in the water, this keeps the season alive for 8 teams. (The 3 division winners qualify for the playoffs. The next best 2 teams qualify for a ‘second chance’ game, a Repechage or Wild Card game that gets the winner a place in the playoffs and keeps their season alive.)

 

While this is insanely beyond anything Scotland Football would ever consider it shows how new life could be breathed into even a league as lop-sided and uncompetitive as ours.

 

 

 

North				seed
Aberdeen FC	21	9	42	2
St. Johnstone FC	20	-7	26		Wildcard Standings
Dundee FC	21	-11	19		Rangers FC	21	16	39
Ross County FC	21	-13	17		Heart of Midlothian	21	2	29
					St. Johnstone FC	20	-7	26
East					Kilmarnock FC	20	-3	25
Hibernian FC	21	4	34	3	Motherwell FC	20	-4	24
Heart of Midlothian	21	2	29	5
Motherwell FC	20	-4	24
Hamilton Academical	20	-6	20
					Wild Card/Repechage
West					Rangers-v-Heart of Midlothian
Celtic FC	21	33	50	1
Rangers FC	21	16	39	4	Playoffs
Kilmarnock FC	20	-3	25		Caltic-v-Wildcard winner
Partick Thistle	21	-20	17		Aberdeen-v-Hibs
					Championship Game
					Higher seed-v-Lower seed

 

 

Wow fair enough, get good acid up your way these days Ed, far out. 

Were you not the same man that blinded and swore at my mad cap idea of a 32 club half regionalised half national 3rd tier, you've mellowed out.  An idea I still stand by by the way.

Start dishing out whatever you can to Doncaster and the any Prem Chairperson you see and it might fly.

The Belgium league idea I think is great and could work well in Scotland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_football_league_system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_First_Division_A

T.V. rights cash listed at the bottom, 16 top division 8 team 2nd, top 6 teams still get 4 games against each other, I think.  With points halved after the 30 game regular season, adds up to a long season, a 40 games plus is some cases.

A bit more promotion and relegation required though.  This is from a league that is ranked 9th in the Uefa rankings.  

Do you notice all European countries have tiered pyramid structures that run down to 8 to 12 tiers and encompasses every team in the Country.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Unknown Fan

[DiegoDiego]

9 hours ago, Unknown Fan said:

Do you notice all European countries have tiered pyramid structures that run down to 8 to 12 tiers and encompasses every team in the Country.

Nonsense.

[EdTheDuck]

14 hours ago, Unknown Fan said:

Wow fair enough, get good acid up your way these days Ed, far out. 

Were you not the same man that blinded and swore at my mad cap idea of a 32 club half regionalised half national 3rd tier, you've mellowed out.  An idea I still stand by by the way.

Start dishing out whatever you can to Doncaster and the any Prem Chairperson you see and it might fly.

The Belgium league idea I think is great and could work well in Scotland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_football_league_system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_First_Division_A

T.V. rights cash listed at the bottom, 16 top division 8 team 2nd, top 6 teams still get 4 games against each other, I think.  With points halved after the 30 game regular season, adds up to a long season, a 40 games plus is some cases.

A bit more promotion and relegation required though.  This is from a league that is ranked 9th in the Uefa rankings.  

Do you notice all European countries have tiered pyramid structures that run down to 8 to 12 tiers and encompasses every team in the Country.

You clearly haven’t read my previous drivel. I do not care for traditional round robin FPTP style of championships, even the bizarre system you suggested (which entailed the possibility of having no home games or something for half a season IIRC)  although I am fully aware it is what we’ll get forever more.

Somewhere in this pile of prattling, I have suggested Apertura/Clausura of varying kinds, East-West Conferences with divisions, conference championships and national championship playoffs (twice a season) and various other nonsensical formats that have as much chance of implementation as I have of walking to the moon.

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by EdTheDuck

[Robert James]

On 19/12/2017 at 22:56, MALLEY said:

New Member, so apologies if this idea or something similar has been made on this thread. 

What about a 16-16-16 proposal?

The 3Rd tier could be made up of the existing 10 league 2 teams plus the 6 best Colts teams. The remaining colts teams could be split between Highland/Lowland Leagues. The colt teams could be relegated and promoted within the league structure but not into Premiership obviously. Also they wouldn't be promoted into same league as there senior side if that situation arose. 

 

 

 

Colts teams - no thank you. Look at the significant fall in attendances south of the border when league clubs play Colts/Development teams in cup matches.

Regarding restructuring of the SPFL and the non league pyramid, the following would be achievable without major surgery,

SPFL

12 - 16 -16 (ie 3 SPFL tiers only), with 2 extra SPFL clubs  promoted (as a one off) to fill the vacancies   

2 up 2 down throughout 

bottom  club in tier 3 relegated automatically, replaced by Highland/Lowland play-off winners

Pyramid

maintain the existing EoSL & SoSL play-off system, but with promotion to the Lowland League being VOLUNTARY and not compulsory for clubs with an  SFA licence

incorporate East & West Region Super Leagues as Lowland  feeder leagues, with participation in a promotion play-off to the SLL being VOLUNTARY and subject to an SFA Licence 

if both the  (separate) EoSL/SoSL and E & W Junior playoffs produce a club which meets the criteria (as above), both would be promoted, with the 15th & 16th SLL clubs being relegated (to a feeder league of their choice) 

incorporate the North Region Super League and the North Caledonian League as Highland League feeders, with promotion being VOLUNTARY  and subject to a play-off, in the unlikely event that both champion clubs are licensed and are seeking promotion)

if a promotion candidate club emerges (from the North Super League or the NCL)) it would be promoted, replacing the bottom club in the HFL which would be relegated to the feeder league of their choice

the SFA to guarantee that the above realignment  would be retained for 5 years, and be subject to a review to be conducted jointly with the six feeder leagues as above

Advantages of the above

a streamlined 3 tier SPFL, giving more scope for a competitive mixture of full time & part time clubs than currently exists

ending the unpopular system of SPFL clubs playing each other 4 times per season, and reducing the number of midweek games (for the mutual benefit of part time clubs & players) 

incorporating the Junior Leagues into the pyramid system, with a clear route to SPFL membership for all ambitious clubs, by evolution rather than by revolution (with the SJFC)

retaining the existing/separate "senior" and "junior" leagues for a minimum period of 5 years subject to review (as above)

discontinuing the compulsory promotion of EoSL and SoSL clubs to the SLL , thereby avoiding a future St Cuthbert and Wigtown 'farce'

allowing the Junior & NCL clubs the option of obtaining or declining promotion to the Lowland or Highland League

overcoming the problem where there is no pyramid for ambitious clubs like Banks O'Dee, where none exists at present. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DA Baracus]

I have heard that as of next season the bottom team in League 2 is automatically relegated. Anyone heard anything else about this?

[Glenconner]

54 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

I have heard that as of next season the bottom team in League 2 is automatically relegated. Anyone heard anything else about this?

Not heard anything but if true it will be the death of a few well known teams. A few teams teams a lot further up better not have a few seasons of bad results or they will go the same way.

[DA Baracus]

33 minutes ago, Glenconner said:

Not heard anything but if true it will be the death of a few well known teams. A few teams teams a lot further up better not have a few seasons of bad results or they will go the same way.

I wouldn't like to see any League 2 club go bust, but that shouldn't stand in the way of a fairer system. There definitely should be automatic relegation for the team who finish 10th.