League reconstruction: Let's hear your view

[Jacksgranda]

2 minutes ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

Any perceived long-term benefits of this idea normally revolve around the concept that they'll cease to exist at some point, and their fans will go and watch one of the 32 elite. Which will totally happen in real life. Yup.

If Blackmick's established anything, it's that they'd be better off joining the Juniors and taking advantage of those attendances that are, lest we forget, better than plenty of so-called top league clubs.

The James McClean Sponsored Poppy Thread for that sort of pish...

[BFTD]

30 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

The James McClean Sponsored Poppy Thread for that sort of pish...

Thankfully, there's no need for a minute's silence for Cowdenbeath et al.

[DA Baracus]

17 hours ago, Blackmick said:

What's the argument for keeping them? Sorry but the likes of Annan, Edinburgh City etc bring nothing to the table. East Stirling have found their level others should too.

Edinburgh City did find their level. They beat East Stirlingshire in a playoff that saw them promoted and East Stirlingshire relegated.

The rest of your posts are wanky moronic pish. Stadium capacity shite worked so well before of course and absolutely didn't nearly bankrupt multiple clubs and leave them with crap white elephant stadiums.

[Blackmick]

28 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Edinburgh City did find their level. They beat East Stirlingshire in a playoff that saw them promoted and East Stirlingshire relegated.

The rest of your posts are wanky moronic pish. Stadium capacity shite worked so well before of course and absolutely didn't nearly bankrupt multiple clubs and leave them with crap white elephant stadiums.

Didn't mention anything about stadium "capacity" or minimum capacity mate as you only have to look at Livingston and Airdrie,but thanks for responding to a moronic w****r

[EdTheDuck]

It seems a little incongruous that decreasing the number of teams at one end of the league structure can improve the overall talent pool but increasing the number of teams at the other end does not, in some way, water down the talent pool there. Or are there other, unspecified  benefits that I am missing?

[Jacksgranda]

No, imho

[RedLichtie86]

Stumbled back on to this thread and thought i had strayed into the Twiglight Zone.

Blackmick is clearly using some very strong solvents. Can only explain how he has came up with this delusional idea.

[1320Lichtie]

Just picked a random Pollock FC match and looked at the attendance,
18th February 2017: Pollok 1 Kilbirnie Ladeside 1 (att 613, Lok’s scorer Allan MacKenzie)
That's a bigger attendance than 10 SPFL teams average attendance.
 
Their average attendance in Junior cup matches was 993 that's bigger than the average attendance of 20 SPFL teams
http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/avesco.htm
 
 
 

One club.

What’s their average attendance outwith junior cup matches?

HibeeJibee should really make a sticky thread for this. This pish is debunked time after time on here, I’ve been on here 10 years.

The seniors crowds are MUCH BETTER than the crowds in the juniors. The seniors also cost a whole lot more to get into. A few clubs have decent attendances in comparison to the seniors but overall they’re miles off. Miles.

[EdTheDuck]

8 hours ago, Jacksgranda said:

No, imho

I have a suspicion, I don't know why, of the possibility that every 16-team league cliché could be plastered across our screens, from ‘blooding youngsters’ through ‘more fans will turn up for a more varied schedule’ to ‘Someone other than RanTic winning the championship’

[Wilky1878]

On 11/12/2017 at 20:37, Blackmick said:

Scotland has too many clubs 42 is far too much for the size of the country.

2 leagues of 16 is enough, regionalise the rest.

Phase 1

Teams  play each other Home and Away once, 30 games

Phase 2

Split into top 8 and bottom 8, 37 Games

2 Teams relegated

League below 1 straight promotion Playoffs for the second spot.

Introduce Alcohol sales inside grounds on a trial basis with some clubs.

Get rid of Hampden and the money saved from that can go into Youth development schemes,improving clubs facilities, Safe standing areas for clubs etc etc

load a pish. Why are people so hellbent on a split anyway? I don't mind the split as it just now but we aren't in the best set up we could be.

On 11/12/2017 at 20:45, 1320Lichtie said:

 

How does it have too many clubs?

All the clubs that are currently competing on a national level are comfortable doing so. Nobody is in any financial difficulty, why should they have to play regional football?

It could possibly kill their club. Montrose playing in a league with the local junior teams or in a senior league with current Highland league clubs would be a total disaster for them.

A 16 team league would leave the vast majority of clubs with absolutely f**k all to play for. So many meaningless games.

The structure just now is fantastic, only 5 teams in L2, 4 teams in L1 and 4 teams in the Championship won’t be playing for anything come the end of the season. In the Premiership teams battle it out until the split, then 6 teams compete for the top 4 spots and 6 teams compete to avoid the bottom 2.

None of this would be possible in your structure, which sounds absolutely shite. It’s not alone in this thread though.

 

Greenied for the top bit about financial difficulty. I don't agree we are fine how we are in terms of the leagues though.

 

If this was the ideal set up for competitiveness why doesn't Germany, Spain, Italy et al jump on it?

On 11/12/2017 at 21:56, Blackmick said:

What's the argument for keeping them? Sorry but the likes of Annan, Edinburgh City etc bring nothing to the table. East Stirling have found their level others should too.

If East Stirling have found their level then surely Edinburgh City is ditto. They got promoted and have managed to stay up there so far.... Now if East Stirling got relegated, L2 became a closed shop again and Edinburgh were continually finishing last then you may have had a point but the fact is we have a pyramid system in place just now (albeit not a great one) so teams can find their level.

[JakeSAFC]

Blackmick is a dumb b*****d.

[Unknown Fan]

I have been reading this forum for a while and the Scottish football league system is bizarre at best.   Here are my thoughts and ideas on how to make it better and integrate the juniors in the system without in taking the next 20 years for clubs to trickle through the SPFL third of a chance of getting promoted League Two trapdoor.

At the moment we have;

Level	League(s)/Division(s)
1	Scottish Premiership (Ladbrokes Premiership) 12 clubs playing 38 games
2	Scottish Championship (Ladbrokes Championship) 10 clubs playing 36 games
3	Scottish League One (Ladbrokes League One) 10 clubs playing 36 games
4	Scottish League Two (Ladbrokes League Two) 10 clubs playing 36 games
5	Highland Football League (Press & Journal Highland League) 18 clubs playing 34 games			Lowland Football League (Ferrari Packaging Lowland League) 16 clubs playing 30 games
6	North Caledonian Football League (Not incorporated) 9 clubs playing 16 games			East of Scotland Football League (Central Taxis EOS League) 13 clubs playing 24 games	South of Scotland Football League 15 clubs playing 28 games

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_football_league_system

With any of the 3 Junior football regions top divisions making up an unofficial Level 7 and leading down to Level 10 ( the new West league 2 from next season).  Also to add to that at an unofficial level 7 is any of the many amateur league top divisions.  This has been shown in recent years with Cumbernauld Colts (Caly Ama League) jumping into the lowland league,  Kelty Hearts (East region juniors) entering the East of Scotland and Bonnyton Thistle entering the South of Scotland. 

So that is for now;

42 SPFL clubs

34 Level 5 clubs (All SFA Licence holders)

37 Level 6 clubs (SFA licence not required to enter league though then no Scottish Cup entry without)

So at present the Scottish Pyramid there is a total of 113 Senior clubs including North Caly League (Only Golspie have SFA Licence)

Over the 3 Junior regions there are 158 clubs West 64, East 60 and North 34 over 11 divisions from next year.

Junior clubs can no longer obtain a SFA licence if they remain within the Junior league structure.  Linlithgow & Banks o'Dee being the clever ones, Girvan too.

My proposed revamp;

League(s)/Division(s)
1	Scottish Premiership 14 clubs playing 38/33/36  games Playing each other twice (26) then split into 7/7 (38) or 8/6 (33/36) 8/6 split would find interesting as top 3/4 gain European places (depending on winner of Scottish Cup) 8th spared relegation dog fight and games against the bigger teams a prize in itself.  Though less games as doubt top 8 teams be wanting to be playing 40 game season. With that open to ideas. Playoff system for european places?  Though with new plans for Europa League possible top clubs would like to play less domestic league games?  Spare games to play in mini league with top Scandinavian teams as unlikely any teams to be playing European football March - May.   With extra European places up for grabs for group winners, UEFA may like the idea of rewarding forward thinking associations? bottom 2 automatic relegation 3rd bottom play off with 3rd-5th in Championship
2	Scottish Championship 14 clubs playing 38 games Playing each other twice then split 7/7 Top 2 promoted 3rd to 5th in playoff with 12th in premiership.  12th plays 5th, 3rd plays 4th, 2 legs, one game final.
3	Northern Scottish National                                                                                                                                       Southern Scottish National  16 Clubs playing each other once 15 games in each the Northern and Southern league first half of season (32 Clubs) The 32 clubs that would compete in these 2 regional leagues of 16 for the first half of the season would be made up of 4 bottom teams Current League One, 10 from League Two, top 10 from Highland league and top 8 from the current Lowland league.  The Tay boundary line would be flexible, hence the Angus, Dundee or Perthshire clubs if in level 3 would possibly play Northern one year Southern the next depending of the demographic of the 32 clubs Scottish National League Top 8 in each league then go on to play at a national level 16 club league in the 2nd half of the season playing each other once.   16 clubs playing a 30 game season   (15 games in regional first half 15 in national 2nd half) Points gained against bottom 8 cleared, points gained against top 8 carried over. top 2 promoted 3rd to 5th play off for possible promotion with 12th in Championship
4	Northern Scottish National                                                                                                               Southern Scottish National 16 clubs playing 15 games from first half of season in level 3 above in their regional leagues. The bottom 8 teams in each league would remain regional and play in leagues of 8 to see which teams would get relegated to level 5. The points gained against top 8 clubs from first half of season would be carried over.  The Northern and Southern 2 separate leagues of 8 would then play each other twice 14 games 29 game total 2 clubs relegated possible playoffs too with 3rd bottom and teams finishing 2nd & 3rd in level 5 leagues    All clubs at this level and above have SFA Licenses only able to gain access by being top of regional league
5	Highland league Northern and Southern 2 regional leagues of 14 clubs in each league 26 games total The Highland Northern would be teams from North Caly plus any other clubs from the bottom of the current highland league/northern juniors that are within Highland Council boundary possible parts of Moray too.  The Southern league clubs in bottom half of current Highland league, Northern Juniors and East junior region north of Tay boundary line			Lowland Football League East and West 2 regional leagues of 14 clubs in each league 26 games total the make up of the 28 clubs at this level would be 8 clubs from bottom half of Lowland league The best of East and West juniors looking to progress in the pyramid Best of Southern and East of Scotland league
6	North Caledonian league 2nd division if required   North Juniors Top division East Junior Region Top Division Clubs North of the Tay boundary line			East of Scotland Football League Possible that being split into Lothian and Borders (Southern)  and Fife and Perthshire (Northern)  East Region Junior top division	West Region 2nd Division (Possible)  West Region Junior Top division South of Scotland Football League

So with this new system we have;

44 Clubs Levels 1-3 playing at a national level an increase of 2.

Though Level 3-4 (32 clubs 2 leagues of 16 play regional for the first half of the season)

Level 4 SFA licensing is required (16 clubs 2 leagues of 8 2nd half of season)

So 60 clubs are in leagues Levels 1-4 with compulsory SFA licensing.

The top 28 retain their 4 games against each other leagues though in bigger 14 club divisions.  With the hope that in time could led to bigger leagues with fewer head to heads in the future.

Level 3-4  (32 Clubs) play each other max of 3 times each.  Stronger clubs each season can go to play at national level and possible promotion to Championship each season.  This league set up at level 3-4 would make sure the strongest teams would be entering the Championship each season regardless of region.

Clubs at Level 5 (56 clubs) have quicker possible access to higher levels and so bigger incentive for Junior clubs / association to join the pyramid.  

So there would be 116 clubs at Levels 1-5 in structured leagues.

1. 14

2. 14

3. 16

4. 16(8,8)     60 clubs total levels 1-4

5. 14-14-14-14   56 clubs

This would be an increase of 3 clubs compared to the 113 clubs in levels 1-6 at the moment.

For this structure to work a dozen or more Junior clubs would need to join the 14 club level 5 leagues to take the place of the weaker South of Scotland and East of Scotland league teams that are happy playing in their regional leagues.  The Northern Highland Level 5 league on paper would be considerably weaker than the other 3 level 5 leagues though covering a large area and localising travel for the weaker outlying highland league teams.  Wick, Fort William possibly among their stronger teams.  Little need for any access below this level in this region apart for aspirational amateur teams from the region or Summer league select teams (possible Skye & Lochalsh) 

So more regional leagues, less Annan vs Elgin Christmas cracker derbies and more likely for Junior league clubs to take part. 

Less travel for smaller clubs and more local derbies.    

My logic is that any club with an average of less than 1,000 attendance shouldn't be playing at a national level.

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm

Also many of the Clubs in North Caly, South of Scotland and East of Scotland league are nowhere near as developed or supported as top Junior clubs especially in the East and West Juniors.

http://nonleaguescotland.org.uk/

Besides all of that for Scottish teams overall to be any force in Europe again a March to November Summer league should be introduced.  I have no doubt Aberdeen would have been playing group stage Europa league last few years and Rangers would have been spared their blushes this year if summer football was in place.  Though for the SFA to be that forward thinking, daring and pro-active seems unthinkable.

Your thoughts, good idea?

Edited November 22, 2017 by Unknown Fan

[SpoonTon]

My preference at the moment would be wildly unpopular and should therefore never be bothered with. 

Top tier: 10

Second tier: 10

Third tier: 10

2 auto rel/pro. 1 rel/pro play-off spot.

Fourth tier: Two regions with 10 teams

Winners directly promoted, runner's up play-off to face 8th place 3rd tier team. 2 relegation places in each league. 

Fifth tier: Highland League, South East Central League, West Central League, East League

Winner of each league promoted. Bottom teams feed into established regions. 

Of course, regions can make their own mind up on what they want, I don't want to force anything on anyone. It's my preference rather than my suggestion, if you know what I mean. I like simplicity and competition. 

 

[RabidAl]

Apropos of former discussion about whether #games vs the Old Firm (or # head-to-heads in a league season) made any difference to the chance of the 'best of the rest' challenging...

...I did a wee bit of research into it and didn't really find anything conclusive (surprise); there's the inevitable attachment here, showing the best OF and best non-OF points totals in each post-war season, using 3 points/win and then multiplying the resulting points/game ratio by 38 for each OF & non-OF team to give an even comparison with today's 12 team, 38 game season.

In case the attachment doesn't work, a the main result was/results were:

- the best non-OF team averages 10 points more in seasons where they play the OF only 4 times, rather than 8 (general average taken from 1945-75; 2012-2016);

- the best non-OF team gains 6-11 points on average and closes the gap on the best OF team by 5-10 points in seasons where they only play the OF 4 times rather than 8 times (same thing, but using a couple of specific examples to give the points range).

Even if it's accurate/true, it wouldn't really mean anything other than a more sustained title challenge with a larger league, maybe larger attendances whilst the challenge lasted. 

 

There's a breakdown by league size, type (split/no-split) and pre-/post- shared gates in there also.

Obviously it is proof of nothing, and there are plenty of holes to pick in it, but it kept me busy for a wee while.

Points of note also: Hibs would have won the '52-'53 season under 3 points/win and Hearts would have scored a hypothetical 102 points in '57-'58.

Top Tier Size & Competitiveness.xlsx

[EdTheDuck]

On 11/22/2017 at 06:45, Unknown Fan said:

I have been reading this forum for a while and the Scottish football league system is bizarre at best.   Here are my thoughts and ideas on how to make it better and integrate the juniors in the system without in taking the next 20 years for clubs to trickle through the SPFL third of a chance of getting promoted League Two trapdoor.

...

 

Besides all of that for Scottish teams overall to be any force in Europe again a March to November Summer league should be introduced.  I have no doubt Aberdeen would have been playing group stage Europa league last few years and Rangers would have been spared their blushes this year if summer football was in place.  Though for the SFA to be that forward thinking, daring and pro-active seems unthinkable.

Your thoughts, good idea?

A 14-team season splitting 7/7 requires 40 match days to be completed plus promotion/relegation playoffs.

From the beginning of March to the end of November is 40 weeks.

You still have to fit in League Cup & Scottish Cup including replays. Then there is European Qualifying and by your own reckoning group matches to squeeze in. That’s without considering the bloody awful international breaks and every couple of years a 6-8 week hiatus for World Cups and European Championships whether we qualify or not.

Then there’s the super attractive mini league with giants like Brann Bergen, Randers and FC Honka. How many non-existent mid-weeks does it require?

Splitting 8-6 and having the top 8 play one rounds of games isn’t going to happen. Celtic win the league by 2 points over Rangers thanks to 2 home wins to Rangers 1 home win = Fucking Carnage.

Your 3^rd tier, though. What if a club from the top 8 has played the other 7 teams from their first half all at home? Do they have to play them all away in second half? And if not, what a rip. It’s bad enough trying to get everyone playing 19 H&A in a 6-6 split.

Any league consisting of part-time clubs does not auger well for splits in mid-winter. How do you ensure everyone has played their full complement if it pishes down for 4 weeks or freezes for a fortnight or both.

Apart from that I have a couple other niggling doubts not least of which is leave the HFL the f**k out of your mental schemes.

 

[Gordon EF]

I think regionalised leagues combining half way through a season is absolutely mental myself. However it's done, I'd rather leagues were self-contained from the beginning to the end of the season (play-offs and splits aside).

Premier & Championship : 12 teams - same format as current Premiership - play 3 times then split and play once more.

National League: 16 teams - play twice then split and play once more (37 games). Could do it so that teams get 'home advantage' against the teams immediately below them pre-split.

1 promotion and a play-off between PL and Ch, two promotion spots and a play-off between Championship and National.

Below that, I wouldn't mind splitting the regionalised leagues into North, West and East to try and encourage the juniors in. Just zipper in current juniors and HL/LL clubs into fill up the spaces. Could have one automatic relegation from the National and then have a 4-way round robin between regional champions and 2nd bottom of National with the top two going into the National League.

[1320Lichtie]

If regional football was possible in Scotland I might be for it. But it’s completely unworkable with Scotland’s layout.

Outwith Ayr and Stranraer this season all our journeys will be under 1 hour and 45 minutes.

Same last year, again minus the anomaly sides, Annan/Berwick and Elgin.

Would it actually be possible to incorporate all the league clubs into a suitable North/South/East/West structure?

Would you be able to make a more regionalised part time league or structure from all the SPFL/Lowland League/Highland League/Bigger junior clubs from that. How would promotion and relegation work?

I have a feeling, that if the town of Annan and Stranraer didn’t exist, Berwick played in English football and Peterhead and Elgin were still Highland League clubs nobody would even be suggesting regionalised leagues for lower league clubs. These 5 clubs seem to get brought into every conversation regarding the subject.

Other than these clubs though, the longest distance between two part time sides in the lower leagues would probably be Montrose to Dumbarton which is 134 miles. For comparison, this season in the East region juniors Kirrie Thistle will travel 115 miles to play Dunbar.

I think regionalised football makes sense, and in certain countries it can work, however I’m not convinced it can or could work in a country like ours.

Just look at the distances some Highland League clubs have to travel to play league fixtures.

[SpoonTon]

2 hours ago, 1320Lichtie said:

If regional football was possible in Scotland I might be for it. But it’s completely unworkable with Scotland’s layout.

Outwith Ayr and Stranraer this season all our journeys will be under 1 hour and 45 minutes.

Same last year, again minus the anomaly sides, Annan/Berwick and Elgin.

Would it actually be possible to incorporate all the league clubs into a suitable North/South/East/West structure?

Would you be able to make a more regionalised part time league or structure from all the SPFL/Lowland League/Highland League/Bigger junior clubs from that. How would promotion and relegation work?

I have a feeling, that if the town of Annan and Stranraer didn’t exist, Berwick played in English football and Peterhead and Elgin were still Highland League clubs nobody would even be suggesting regionalised leagues for lower league clubs. These 5 clubs seem to get brought into every conversation regarding the subject.

Other than these clubs though, the longest distance between two part time sides in the lower leagues would probably be Montrose to Dumbarton which is 134 miles. For comparison, this season in the East region juniors Kirrie Thistle will travel 115 miles to play Dunbar.

I think regionalised football makes sense, and in certain countries it can work, however I’m not convinced it can or could work in a country like ours.

Just look at the distances some Highland League clubs have to travel to play league fixtures.
 

Regional football works throughout Scotland, and it is enjoyed by many. There are many Junior fans who would hate the idea of playing in a national league, for example. So to say it's unworkable is incorrect. You're saying that if a quarter of the league One/Two clubs didn't exist then no-one would bother, but they do exist and the top level of a regional system would do two things: cut out the longest journeys and make overall travel distance shorter. There are hundreds of regional teams throughout Scotland. And when fans talk about making regional leagues, the idea is to open things up to all of them. 

What you're saying is that you don't want Arbroath to be one of them. 

 

 

[1320Lichtie]

Regional football works throughout Scotland, and it is enjoyed by many. There are many Junior fans who would hate the idea of playing in a national league, for example. So to say it's unworkable is incorrect. You're saying that if a quarter of the league One/Two clubs didn't exist then no-one would bother, but they do exist and the top level of a regional system would do two things: cut out the longest journeys and make overall travel distance shorter. There are hundreds of regional teams throughout Scotland. And when fans talk about making regional leagues, the idea is to open things up to all of them. 

What you're saying is that you don't want Arbroath to be one of them. 

 

 

 

Propose a workable league then that would greatly reduce our travelling and keep us at a similar level of quality to what we are now?! How would the promotion and relegation work.

 

I’ve just given an example of an east region team travelling 115 miles for a fixture. All of our current games minus the ones v Ayr and Stranraer will be a smaller distance than that.

[SpoonTon]

9 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

 

Propose a workable league then that would greatly reduce our travelling?! How would the promotion and relegation work.

I’ve just given an example of an east region team travelling 115 miles for a fixture. All of our current games minus the ones v Ayr and Stranraer will be a smaller distance than that.

 

Two things about this. One is that you're giving a single example of a large journey from a lower league Junior team. Sometimes longer distances will occur for one off matches, but those are the exceptions. Let's look at the top levels of Junior football. In the West Region you might need to travel 60 miles or so if you're going from Kirkintilloch to Girvan . If a team like Stranraer were in there, for example, there would always be one longer journey down there. But all the clubs in that league have nearby fixtures, and seldom have to travel particularly far. It thrives on local rivalry, and that's what they love about it. It works because of that. Most journeys are within about 30 miles. There will be the odd longer one, and a few less than 10 miles. If you combined them with the East Region, it might not be too bad for Rob Roy in terms of distances, but most of the clubs would be looking at several journeys which would be close to 100 miles. That would greatly increase travelling over the course of a season. There are many players in those leagues who hate any long distances. They want to be playing the teams, 5, 10, 20 miles down the road, maybe a little bit longer on occasion. 

The second thing is that you're only looking at it from the perspective of Arbroath and the number of particularly long journeys. The examples for every club would be different and it's about the total number of long and short journeys. 

If Ayr were in a League with Stirling, Berwick, Stranraer, Annan, Stenhousemuir, Clyde, Queens Park, Airdrie and Albion Rovers, then their total mileage would be about 2300 miles. They would still have a couple of hefty trips, but only one over 100 miles. They average distance to a match would be 64 miles. 

If Ayr were in a league with  Arbroath, East Fife, Raith Rovers, Forfar, Elgin, Cowdenbeath, Edinburgh City, Peterhead, and Montrose, then their total mileage would be about 4800 miles. The average distance to a match would be 133 miles. 

You can argue that Ayr is closer to Edinburgh than Berwick, and so on. You would have some weird splits with teams not too far away from each other playing in different regions, but the point is about overall travel, not individual examples. 

If there were four regions, Ayr would be apart from Berwick and their only particularly long journey would go. That's what regions do, cut down overall journey times. Some regions would be bigger than others, it's the same in all countries. It at least balances out the occasional longer journey with plenty of local matches. 

Whether or not you think it's worth it is another matter.