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League reconstruction: Let's hear your view


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To try and bring fuel to a debate that's stagnated a bit, with more and more club board members and managers alike showing support for reconstruction could it come quicker than we think?

I think for it too work we'd need a change to the way things are voted in as we'll never agree on everything.

So many managers and board members are showing their support, primarily the one I see most, for a 16 team league. I know the spfl are a bit of a shambles but even they cannot ignore this as it's not just the fans that are shouting now.

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Tbh if it doesn't happen soon I doubt it will. Sooner or later rangers will get promoted and it will be business as usual.

This I agree with but as more and more people are showing support in favour each day of reconstruction I think something has too happen.

The problem is, some people up here want radical changes and some are afraid of change. I'd rather do it in babysitters, so maybe reconstruct the national leagues then look at the structure of regionalisation after that and do it all over a number of years slowly and steadily.

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16-10-16 is the best way to go but with more expansive playoffs in the top tier.

Championship playoff (4 teams)

2 rounds of fixtures = 6 additional games. Points from regular season are carried tover. Team with most points are Champions.

Group playoffs:(2 groups of 4)

Teams play each other twice = 6 additional games. The winners of both groups playoff against each other and the winners of that match playoff against the 4th best (bottom of championship playoff) team for a European place. In this case, points aren't carried over.

Relegation Playoff (4 teams):

The bottom 4 play each other twice with points carried over from regular season.. Bottom team is relegated and the second bottom team goes into a playoff with team from second tier.

Edited by Terry_Tibbs
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im not very keen on play offs to decide the champions and euro spots, the league doesnt lie, the winners should be the winners not a team whos scrambled 4th then played a blinder in the play offs, creates interest aye but hardly fair to crown the best team in the land. also it would probably not hurt to send our best teams into europe rather than the jammiest teams, probably why the cup runners up spot was discontinued due to some embarrasing results (my own team included)

just keep it simple, avoid convoluted formats. a simple round robin with enough meaningfull league position (winners euro, rel play offs and relegation) should keep enough interest dont americanize it too much.

Theres no perfect set up for us, scotland has a unique set of challanges when it comes to regionalising the pyramid, we dont have alot off full time clubs and we realy dont have many big clubs. we dont have alot of money. whatever changes happen need to benefit the game overall, the one with the fewest negative side effects for me is still;

1 - 16

2 - 16

N/S -16

N/E/W -16

N2/E2/W2 -16

whatever you want below that

kEEP IT SIMPLE!

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The top tier I think we are quite limited in what we can do with it while Celtic and probably in time Rangers are the only teams likely to win or compete for league over the course of a season. There is always going to be and should be Euro spot for cup winners so really there is little or no scope for euro play offs without us having more than 4 team in Europe on a regular basis. Things are tight outside of top 2 at the moment though Dundee United are a bit behind at the moment. I don't see there being much wrong with the competitiveness of the top flight outside of having a chance to win the league. The only merits for more clubs I can see is potentially just playing each other 2 times and perhaps with more teams less chance of relegation and less meaningful games clubs will blood even more younger players. Cyprus had the issue of meaningless games for midtable teams so reduced from 14 to 12 though they have changed back to 14 after a year again.

As mentioned we don't have many full time teams in Scotland. Well we probably do ourselves a disservice 20 teams for a nation of our size is probabably bigger than you would expect. I would say though that likes of Livingston, Queen of the South, Raith, Morton, Dunfermline are full time but only just and that is helped by having other decent sized clubs in 2nd tier increasing attendances and coverage. Dunfermline I know are in tier 3 but have mentioned they would need to consider full time football in longer term so basically need to get back up asap. In essence any 16-16 format is to merge the top 3 tier into 2 and will have 10 current tier 3 teams and 6 of the weakest tier 2 teams (half of which will be part time already and teams I have mentioned would probably need to go that way). The top league I think will almost turn into a franchise league if your a tier 2 team go full time and your almost certain to be in top league within 2 years. One year your playing Celtic, Hearts, Aberdeen the next Albion Rovers, Brechin City and Stenhousemuir the gulf is massive.

As it is we have had some highly supported teams Hibs, Hearts, Rangers and quite possibly Dundee Utd are more likely to go down which is an added bonus on gate money and media exposure in tier 2.

Clearly in general crowds had dropped in the last 15 years or so but more of that I think is down to easier access to international leagues which people unfairly try to directly compare their local level with, ticket prices increasing beyond inflation and poor deals agreed and presentation with media partners. Those that administer and work in Scottish football also seem to talk it down which doesn't help. 1 or 2 clubs being as dominant is not really a factor in other nations of similar size. Hearts winning the 2nd tier last season was refreshing a galvanised support much like HIbs in 1999.

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I'd go for something along the lines of Wilkinson1998.

Premier League: (16)
Celtic, Aberdeen, Hearts, Dundee United, Dundee, Hamilton, Ict, Ross County, Partick Thistle, Kilmarnock, Motherwell, St Johnstone, Rangers, Hibs, Falkirk, Raith
Championship (16)
Morton, St Mirren, Queens, Livi, Dumbarton, Alloa, Ayr, Dunfermline, Stenhousemuir, Albion Rovers, Airdrie, Peterhead, Forfar, Stranraer, Brechin
League One (16)
Arbroath, Annan, Montrose, Elgin, Stirling, East Stirlingshire, Berwick, Clyde, Queens Park, East Fife, Auchinleck Talbot, Bo'ness United, Bonnyrigg Rose, Rob Roy, Linlithgow Rose, Pollok
Would go with the top league being the current top 16 in the country, followed by the lower 16 in a championship league, followed by league one with the bottom league with addition of the top 6 junior teams (or biggest supported clubs - just an example of junior teams)
Then join the remaining non league seniors and juniors into a similar concept to create the pyramid of 3 up / 3 down - a Scottish Conference if you will, followed by North / East / West regions below that.
I liked the idea of allowing all teams in Scotland from Amateur to Seniors being allowed to participate (if they wanted) in "big" Scottish Cup and allow smaller clubs to also participate in their Junior / Amateur Scottish Cups.
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I'd go for something along the lines of Wilkinson1998.

Premier League: (16)

Celtic, Aberdeen, Hearts, Dundee United, Dundee, Hamilton, Ict, Ross County, Partick Thistle, Kilmarnock, Motherwell, St Johnstone, Rangers, Hibs, Falkirk, Raith

Championship (16)

Morton, St Mirren, Queens, Livi, Dumbarton, Alloa, Ayr, Dunfermline, Stenhousemuir, Albion Rovers, Airdrie, Peterhead, Forfar, Stranraer, Brechin

League One (16)

Arbroath, Annan, Montrose, Elgin, Stirling, East Stirlingshire, Berwick, Clyde, Queens Park, East Fife, Auchinleck Talbot, Bo'ness United, Bonnyrigg Rose, Rob Roy, Linlithgow Rose, Pollok

Would go with the top league being the current top 16 in the country, followed by the lower 16 in a championship league, followed by league one with the bottom league with addition of the top 6 junior teams (or biggest supported clubs - just an example of junior teams)

Then join the remaining non league seniors and juniors into a similar concept to create the pyramid of 3 up / 3 down - a Scottish Conference if you will, followed by North / East / West regions below that.

I liked the idea of allowing all teams in Scotland from Amateur to Seniors being allowed to participate (if they wanted) in "big" Scottish Cup and allow smaller clubs to also participate in their Junior / Amateur Scottish Cups.

The only thing with this is I'd rather not let junior clubs fasttrack their way straight in and would rather offer Highland/lowland league clubs the chance to step up first.

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The only thing with this is I'd rather not let junior clubs fasttrack their way straight in and would rather offer Highland/lowland league clubs the chance to step up first.

You could phase it in over a few seasons, try say to merge 2 small leagues into bigger ones untill everyone has a suitable home rather than fastracking / preferencial treatment

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I'd go for something along the lines of Wilkinson1998.

Premier League: (16)
Celtic, Aberdeen, Hearts, Dundee United, Dundee, Hamilton, Ict, Ross County, Partick Thistle, Kilmarnock, Motherwell, St Johnstone, Rangers, Hibs, Falkirk, Raith
Championship (16)
Morton, St Mirren, Queens, Livi, Dumbarton, Alloa, Ayr, Dunfermline, Stenhousemuir, Albion Rovers, Airdrie, Peterhead, Forfar, Stranraer, Brechin
League One (16)
Arbroath, Annan, Montrose, Elgin, Stirling, East Stirlingshire, Berwick, Clyde, Queens Park, East Fife, Auchinleck Talbot, Bo'ness United, Bonnyrigg Rose, Rob Roy, Linlithgow Rose, Pollok
Would go with the top league being the current top 16 in the country, followed by the lower 16 in a championship league, followed by league one with the bottom league with addition of the top 6 junior teams (or biggest supported clubs - just an example of junior teams)
Then join the remaining non league seniors and juniors into a similar concept to create the pyramid of 3 up / 3 down - a Scottish Conference if you will, followed by North / East / West regions below that.
I liked the idea of allowing all teams in Scotland from Amateur to Seniors being allowed to participate (if they wanted) in "big" Scottish Cup and allow smaller clubs to also participate in their Junior / Amateur Scottish Cups.

out of that list, morton, st mir queens livi and dunfermline are full time ,depending on how they are doing airdie and ayr utd could be looking at full time. thats not too bad going

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out of that list, morton, st mir queens livi and dunfermline are full time ,depending on how they are doing airdie and ayr utd could be looking at full time. thats not too bad going

Did Ayr not go full time again last season? I also think other clubs that could sustain themselves in that league could eventually look at full time even with a slow transition.

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I'd go for something along the lines of Wilkinson1998.

Premier League: (16)

Celtic, Aberdeen, Hearts, Dundee United, Dundee, Hamilton, Ict, Ross County, Partick Thistle, Kilmarnock, Motherwell, St Johnstone, Rangers, Hibs, Falkirk, Raith

Championship (16)

Morton, St Mirren, Queens, Livi, Dumbarton, Alloa, Ayr, Dunfermline, Stenhousemuir, Albion Rovers, Airdrie, Peterhead, Forfar, Stranraer, Brechin

League One (16)

Arbroath, Annan, Montrose, Elgin, Stirling, East Stirlingshire, Berwick, Clyde, Queens Park, East Fife, Auchinleck Talbot, Bo'ness United, Bonnyrigg Rose, Rob Roy, Linlithgow Rose, Pollok

Would go with the top league being the current top 16 in the country, followed by the lower 16 in a championship league, followed by league one with the bottom league with addition of the top 6 junior teams (or biggest supported clubs - just an example of junior teams)

Then join the remaining non league seniors and juniors into a similar concept to create the pyramid of 3 up / 3 down - a Scottish Conference if you will, followed by North / East / West regions below that.

I liked the idea of allowing all teams in Scotland from Amateur to Seniors being allowed to participate (if they wanted) in "big" Scottish Cup and allow smaller clubs to also participate in their Junior / Amateur Scottish Cups.

So the licensed LL teams would just step aside in favour of the juniors? Good luck with that and convincing the juniors to join. Edited by Sergeant Wilson
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What incentive would there be for the likes of Talbot to enter into a nationwide league with the likes of East Stirling, Annan, Berwick and Elgin? I’d say absolutely none.

Look, one of the major reasons Junior clubs are not currently involved (along with a healthy dose of self-interest) is nobody wants to play in League Two in front of crowds often smaller than their own, and maybe 200 miles away, possibly midweek. It makes no sense. Add in the blocker of the Lowland League which is also largely of no interest to anyone in the Junior game and you have a clusterfuck of a set-up currently.

If you want a genuine pyramid in Scotland, you need to regionalise the bottom end of the SPFL ie two divisions of 16 (or three of 12) then a two or three region system below that. Without Junior clubs you don’t have a pyramid, without some form of regionalisation you won’t have Junior clubs. The Lowland League is a lame duck.

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What incentive would there be for the likes of Talbot to enter into a nationwide league with the likes of East Stirling, Annan, Berwick and Elgin? Id say absolutely none.

Look, one of the major reasons Junior clubs are not currently involved (along with a healthy dose of self-interest) is nobody wants to play in League Two in front of crowds often smaller than their own, and maybe 200 miles away, possibly midweek. It makes no sense. Add in the blocker of the Lowland League which is also largely of no interest to anyone in the Junior game and you have a clusterfuck of a set-up currently.

If you want a genuine pyramid in Scotland, you need to regionalise the bottom end of the SPFL ie two divisions of 16 (or three of 12) then a two or three region system below that. Without Junior clubs you dont have a pyramid, without some form of regionalisation you wont have Junior clubs. The Lowland League is a lame duck.

Which is why this thread is discussing the preferred option of everyone. Ultimately, senior clubs will have the deciding say in this and junior clubs stance of do what we say and we'll join won't work. Personally, I'd strip junior clubs of all benefits they get just now such as entry for some into the senior Scottish as if they aren't wanting to participate in the set up they shouldn't get these benefits.

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What incentive would there be for the likes of Talbot to enter into a nationwide league with the likes of East Stirling, Annan, Berwick and Elgin? I’d say absolutely none.

Look, one of the major reasons Junior clubs are not currently involved (along with a healthy dose of self-interest) is nobody wants to play in League Two in front of crowds often smaller than their own, and maybe 200 miles away, possibly midweek. It makes no sense.

I get what your saying but what is the point of creating a pyramid system if Lower Seniors and Juniors don't want to travel the distance midweek - I reckon the clubs should be asked and if they choose not to then don't allow them into the pyramid system - each club would be better getting a letter from SFA asking if they would like to participate in pyramid system.

I only mentioned the Juniors in the league, opposed to the Highland League and Lowlands etc because (if memory serves me right) the juniors have done better in the Scottish Cup and have bigger crowds to sustain them (I may be wrong but just going by memory).

Something has to be done though as the current system is garbage

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What incentive would there be for the likes of Talbot to enter into a nationwide league with the likes of East Stirling, Annan, Berwick and Elgin? I’d say absolutely none

How about Stenny, Stranraer Peterhead and cowdenbeath? Is juniordom going to change it view, or is a cold rainy night in Peterhead just going to become the next boggyman should league 2 sides become regionised(presumably by being absorbed into the highland and lowland leagues)

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How about Stenny, Stranraer Peterhead and cowdenbeath? Is juniordom going to change it view, or is a cold rainy night in Peterhead just going to become the next boggyman should league 2 sides become regionised(presumably by being absorbed into the highland and lowland leagues)

I don't think any clubs have a problem with playing Peterhead and Elgin at the right level. Part-time teams making regular 300+ mile round trips for a league game in the fourth tier in front of 350 fans is insanity, whether that be a Saturday or Tuesday night.

Let's remember there is widespread reluctance in the Highland League to make those same journeys south to play Stranraer or Berwick. If Highland clubs had to leave their league (and Association) and join a new one to be in a pyramid, I'd think you'd find many probably wouldn't.

The SJFA deserve severe criticism for their approach to all of this, however what's done is done and what is needed is a serious and open debate of how we take all clubs forward into a pyramid. That will require a complete re-think.

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Which is why this thread is discussing the preferred option of everyone. Ultimately, senior clubs will have the deciding say in this and junior clubs stance of do what we say and we'll join won't work. Personally, I'd strip junior clubs of all benefits they get just now such as entry for some into the senior Scottish as if they aren't wanting to participate in the set up they shouldn't get these benefits.

All the SFA need do is withdraw their referees to bring the SJFA back to the table as far as the pyramid is concerned, however the SFA are not interested in doing that, and it takes us into unknown territory if the Juniors clubs react badly to such a confrontational act.

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