League reconstruction: Let's hear your view

[stulch]

On 09/06/2022 at 14:05, Stag Nation said:

AFAIK the SFA haven't proposed changes to the LL, but are setting up "pyramid working group discussions aimed at providing a longer-term solution to optimise the structure and aid the transition of talented players between the ages of 17 and 21."

Those discussions may indeed lead to changes, or they may fizzle out.

Anyway, it's hard to imagine them coming up with anything worse than your proposal, but you never know.

BTW who are the 8 "elite" clubs?

Ohh, they've probably managed it!

[FREDDYFRY]

They are absolutely determined to shoehorn B teams in. Said at the time getting them in and in the process ruining a good competition that was the ‘Diddy cup’ was thin edge of the wedge, then of course LL took the silver and that was it.

Never attended a match involving my team and a B team and never will. If this goes through there should be a mass boycott of any game they are involved in.

 

[DreamOakTree1]

I’m quite in favour of having colts teams in a new 6th tier, but with conditions attached. My first condition would be that the clubs should need to provide evidence that these youths will get an opportunity to play in their club's first eleven. Two of the clubs involved have not given a single minute of football to any their academy recruits this season, yet they’re campaigning for a new division to help develop said youngsters. Some of these players have been at their parent clubs since childhood, yet as soon as they look ready to step up a ready made foreign player is recruited at a considerable cost to the club. For this reason talents like Ben Doak and Billy Gilmour have been developed for years then allowed to slip through the net to English clubs for a minute fraction of the cost expended to recruit those “ready made” players. Have the people who are willing to fund this new division taken the time to ask the managers of their clubs if they will be given a fair opportunity to play for the first team? Or will a “ready made” foreign player always be their preference? If not then it’s a monumental contradiction to declare that they need a fifth tier to develop their academy graduates.

[David2000]

Shoehorning B teams into actual senior leagues shows the incompetence of the authorities of running a competitive and worthwhile reserve league setup.

[footnotes]

Two possibilities that I like at the moment.

A.

Three divisions of 14.

Teams play home and away before each division splits after 26 games into a top 8 / bottom 6.

Bottom 6 play home and away (so 10 post split games, 36 in total) with 13th, 14th relegated and 12th into play offs with 3rd, 4th, 5th from division below.

Top 8 play home or away (so 7 more games), then a second split at 33 games into 1st-4th who play one another for a fourth time, and likewise for 5th-8th.  36 games each.

That way 1-4 automatically qualify for Europe and attempt to win the league, and 5-8 effectively play off for the final European place as 1-4 are likely to win the Scottish Cup. 

For the Championship and League One, the top 2 are automatically promoted, 3-5 go into play offs with 12th from above (so the teams in the 5th-8th group have meaningful fixtures when aiming for the last promotion play off place).

Not sure how many would be relegated from League One / promoted from Highland and Lowland leagues.

 

B.

Top division of 16.

Playing home and away before a split at 30 games into top 8, bottom 8.

Then play home or away, for a 37 game season.

The fourth Old Firm game would come in a summer weekend, as part of a master's tournament (to be held on weekends, about the same time as the league cup) between our European qualifiers that would also help them find form and progress in Europe.

[chris1883]

I just don't get why, as Scottish football fans, we seem to want to over complicate our leagues.  Surely the way forward is to just keep them simple?

3 Leagues:

Premier: 16 Teams (Teams play 1x home and 1x away)
Championship: 12 Teams (Teams play 2x home and 2x away)
First: 12 Teams

1x Automatic promotion and relegation
(This is where I complicate it....) 
Playoffs: Second bottom play 3rd top Home & Away
Third bottom play 2nd top Home and away
Playoff final: Held at Hampden on the last Sunday of the season 12:00pm kick off for the First - Championship game. 5:00pm kick off for the championship - premier game

To compensate for the fewer games in the Premier I would like to see a knock-out tournament run mid season purely for Premier teams. I feel this would provide more entertainment and be easier to sell to fans and broadcasters rather than doubling-up league games.

In terms of other elements of reconstruction:
1. Every team must have an academy (structure to be decided)
2. After 4 seasons every team must have a minimum of 1 academy graduate on the team sheet
3. Every team must distribute key financials to supporters each year

Edited March 5 by chris1883

[Oldster]

The change I'd most like to see is for two automatic relegation places from the Premiership. I like the idea of more towns having a season or two of the top level circus in town, and it's never good for relegated clubs to have slim chances of immediate promotion again. I also like straight promotion for the HL/LL playoff winners.

If there isn't a change in revenue distribution or number of teams in the overall league (SPFL) then it only takes 75% of them to vote for change for it to happen.  8/12 Premier clubs, 8/10 Championship, 15/20 leagues 1 and 2.

[steveharvey]

I think that most of the views i see are to expand the Premiership, the problem being the TV deal is reliant on the Celtic/Rangers games until 2029, so if we assume that reconstruction is off the table until that point what can be done?

What about making the Championship stronger? Increase the Championship to 18 teams, play each other home and away for a 34 game season, increase the relegation spaces to 2 automatics with the 3rd being a playout.

Increase League One to 18 club, bring in 6 teams from Highland/Lowland leagues, two go up automatically with playoffs to determine who plays the playout game. Increase relegation spots from League One to two automatics, with one play out. The winners of the Highland and Lowland Leagues go up, with playoffs for the others to determine who plays the playout game.

This would open up the pyramid and allow for those leagues to be grown?

[Sergeant Wilson]

3 hours ago, steveharvey said:

Increase the Championship to 18 teams, play each other home and away for a 34 game season

How is that "stronger"?

[SecretCEO]

On 05/03/2024 at 08:56, chris1883 said:

I just don't get why, as Scottish football fans, we seem to want to over complicate our leagues.  Surely the way forward is to just keep them simple?

3 Leagues:

Premier: 16 Teams (Teams play 1x home and 1x away)
Championship: 12 Teams (Teams play 2x home and 2x away)
First: 12 Teams

1x Automatic promotion and relegation
(This is where I complicate it....) 
Playoffs: Second bottom play 3rd top Home & Away
Third bottom play 2nd top Home and away
Playoff final: Held at Hampden on the last Sunday of the season 12:00pm kick off for the First - Championship game. 5:00pm kick off for the championship - premier game

To compensate for the fewer games in the Premier I would like to see a knock-out tournament run mid season purely for Premier teams. I feel this would provide more entertainment and be easier to sell to fans and broadcasters rather than doubling-up league games.

In terms of other elements of reconstruction:
1. Every team must have an academy (structure to be decided)
2. After 4 seasons every team must have a minimum of 1 academy graduate on the team sheet
3. Every team must distribute key financials to supporters each year

Yes, as 44 games would enable clubs could keep the same prices for season tickets as now but lower the prices for individual games, allowing them to attract more supporters and build a fanbase.  

On 23/03/2024 at 15:23, Oldster said:

The change I'd most like to see is for two automatic relegation places from the Premiership. I like the idea of more towns having a season or two of the top level circus in town, and it's never good for relegated clubs to have slim chances of immediate promotion again. I also like straight promotion for the HL/LL playoff winners.

If there isn't a change in revenue distribution or number of teams in the overall league (SPFL) then it only takes 75% of them to vote for change for it to happen.  8/12 Premier clubs, 8/10 Championship, 15/20 leagues 1 and 2.

9 out of 12.  75%.

[SecretCEO]

On 25/03/2024 at 13:36, steveharvey said:

I think that most of the views i see are to expand the Premiership, the problem being the TV deal is reliant on the Celtic/Rangers games until 2029, so if we assume that reconstruction is off the table until that point what can be done?

What about making the Championship stronger? Increase the Championship to 18 teams, play each other home and away for a 34 game season, increase the relegation spaces to 2 automatics with the 3rd being a playout.

Increase League One to 18 club, bring in 6 teams from Highland/Lowland leagues, two go up automatically with playoffs to determine who plays the playout game. Increase relegation spots from League One to two automatics, with one play out. The winners of the Highland and Lowland Leagues go up, with playoffs for the others to determine who plays the playout game.

This would open up the pyramid and allow for those leagues to be grown?

The TV deal can usually be renegotiated within the contracted period: it just takes the will / a good reason to do it. 

A bigger Championship could be stronger if it allows for more full timers and the best part timers.  

I like a bigger League One too.  I'm a fan of the way they do it in the East of Scotland League, with many promotion and relegation places, but I do like a play off (or play out?) for the end of season drama.

[Spyro]

If I could wave a magic wand, I’d have something like this in place for next season

 

Premier - 10 teams, 36 games, same playoff structure
Division 1 - 10 teams, 36 games,same playoff structure
Division 2 - 10 teams, 36 games, same playoff structure 10th place relegated 9th place vs Highland League Winners
Highland League up to 20 teams IN - Peterhead and Elgin OUT - Brechin			Lowland League 1 18 teams - 34 games, no B teams(!) IN - Brechin, top current LL teams Winners promoted Bottom 4 teams relegated (5 down if HL team relegated from Div 2)
Licence Required
North Caley League		North Region Premier	Lowland League 2 16 teams - 30 games Bottom of current LL and Top current EoS, WoS, Midland and SoS Top 4 (licensed) teams promoted Bottom 4 (or 5) teams relegated
		North Region Division 1	West of Scotland Premier 16 teams Top 2 promoted Bottom 2 - 5 relegated. Relegation depends on numbers from the leagues above.					East of Scotland Premier Top 2 promoted 16 teams Relegation depends on numbers from the leagues above
			West of Scotland Division 1 Top 3 - 4 team promoted Bottom 2 - 5 relegated. Relegation depends on numbers from the leagues above.   All winners of Div 2 and SoS league promoted. All 2nd placed into playoff					East of Scotland Division 1 Top 3 - 4 team promoted Bottom 2 - 5 relegated. Relegation depends on numbers from the leagues above.   All winners of Div 2 and Midland league promoted. All 2nd placed into playoff
			WoS Div 2 North	WoS Div 2 East	WoS Div 2 South	South of Scotland League		EoS Div 2 North	EoS Div 2 South	Midland League

[Oldster]

That's really thorough.  I can't agree with smaller divisions, though.

I'd go for 3 divisions of 14 in the SPFL.  It would be a 40 game season, starting the last July weekend and no winter break.

Teams would play opponents x3 (fixtures to be reversed for the following season).  And every season would begin with an additional round of fixtures,  with 1st v 2nd, 3rd v 4th, 5th v 6th, etc from the previous season, as a showpiece opener.  No advantage would be gained since everyone would be playing opponents at their own level.  And it would give all the Old Firm games without the need for a split. 

Then maybe do what you said for the LL, HL.

[Sergeant Wilson]

On 15/04/2024 at 18:11, Spyro said:

If I could wave a magic wand, I’d have something like this in place for next season

 

Premier - 10 teams, 36 games, same playoff structure
Division 1 - 10 teams, 36 games,same playoff structure
Division 2 - 10 teams, 36 games, same playoff structure 10th place relegated 9th place vs Highland League Winners
Highland League up to 20 teams IN - Peterhead and Elgin OUT - Brechin			Lowland League 1 18 teams - 34 games, no B teams(!) IN - Brechin, top current LL teams Winners promoted Bottom 4 teams relegated (5 down if HL team relegated from Div 2)
Licence Required
North Caley League		North Region Premier	Lowland League 2 16 teams - 30 games Bottom of current LL and Top current EoS, WoS, Midland and SoS Top 4 (licensed) teams promoted Bottom 4 (or 5) teams relegated
		North Region Division 1	West of Scotland Premier 16 teams Top 2 promoted Bottom 2 - 5 relegated. Relegation depends on numbers from the leagues above.					East of Scotland Premier Top 2 promoted 16 teams Relegation depends on numbers from the leagues above
			West of Scotland Division 1 Top 3 - 4 team promoted Bottom 2 - 5 relegated. Relegation depends on numbers from the leagues above.   All winners of Div 2 and SoS league promoted. All 2nd placed into playoff					East of Scotland Division 1 Top 3 - 4 team promoted Bottom 2 - 5 relegated. Relegation depends on numbers from the leagues above.   All winners of Div 2 and Midland league promoted. All 2nd placed into playoff
			WoS Div 2 North	WoS Div 2 East	WoS Div 2 South	South of Scotland League		EoS Div 2 North	EoS Div 2 South	Midland League

Why is 9th in Div 2 playing HL winners, did you miss a play off?

[FairWeatherFan]

44 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Why is 9th in Div 2 playing HL winners, did you miss a play off?

Since the Midlands and Brechin have beem thrown into the Lowland. I'm guessing they've realised the depth of the Highland area has been gutted and doesn't deserve automatic promotion. While the Lowland does. 

On 15/04/2024 at 12:25, SecretCEO said:

Yes, as 44 games would enable clubs could keep the same prices for season tickets as now but lower the prices for individual games, allowing them to attract more supporters and build a fanbase.  

Same prices but increased costs as there’s more games played. Don't see that playing out as imagined. 

[Sergeant Wilson]

36 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Since the Midlands and Brechin have beem thrown into the Lowland. I'm guessing they've realised the depth of the Highland area has been gutted and doesn't deserve automatic promotion. While the Lowland does. 

 

Good luck selling that.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Good luck selling that.

That's true of this entire thread.

[Spyro]

3 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Why is 9th in Div 2 playing HL winners, did you miss a play off?

I didn't say it was going to ever happen, it is an 'ideal situation' but will never get voted through

[realmadrid]

The above will never happen

Firstly you are relegating 12 teams out of the SPFL , the clubs will never go for that

Then there is is the issue at tier 6 - Why are the Midland league teams and South of Scotland teams relegated from tier 6 to 8 in one go ?

Also the issue of the Highland league being shunted into a play off yet the lowland league getting direct entry as pointed out above.

[SecretCEO]

On 16/04/2024 at 16:45, Oldster said:

That's really thorough.  I can't agree with smaller divisions, though.

I'd go for 3 divisions of 14 in the SPFL.  It would be a 40 game season, starting the last July weekend and no winter break.

Teams would play opponents x3 (fixtures to be reversed for the following season).  And every season would begin with an additional round of fixtures,  with 1st v 2nd, 3rd v 4th, 5th v 6th, etc from the previous season, as a showpiece opener.  No advantage would be gained since everyone would be playing opponents at their own level.  And it would give all the Old Firm games without the need for a split. 

Then maybe do what you said for the LL, HL.

An advantage of condensing the SPFL into 3 divisions would be that a national conference league could fit in at the 4th level without pushing everyone else down a notch. 

It could begin as only the best 8 teams from the Highland and Lowland leagues, playing x4, expanding each season to catch automatically relegated teams from the SPFL.  With Highland and Lowland champions promoted to it each year.