League reconstruction: Let's hear your view

[RabidAI]

In terms of the changes that the SFA are looking to make to the Lowland League in time for season 2023-24, my first thought would be to have 24 teams overall including the 8 elite development teams and the 16 clubs who are already there - who I would divide into the 8 most westerly, and 8 most easterly.

For fixtures: each 8 plays one another twice each (once at home and once away), and plays the other 16 once each (either at home or away), to give 30 games per team.

For tables: an overall table of 24 teams to see how the youngsters compare to the oldsters; a table of 16 teams to see who the best seniors are; and three separate tables of 8, to find the best of the youngsters, the best if the West, and the best of the East, with a possible play-off between the West and East winners since they would have had different fixtures lists (winners progressing to pyramid play-offs; or East winners, West winners Highland winners, and Club 42 could meet in play-offs; or Club 42 relegated automatically, with Club 41, East winners, West winners and Highland winners competing for 2 SPFL places).

[Stag Nation]

2 hours ago, RabidAI said:

In terms of the changes that the SFA are looking to make to the Lowland League in time for season 2023-24, my first thought would be to have 24 teams overall including the 8 elite development teams and the 16 clubs who are already there - who I would divide into the 8 most westerly, and 8 most easterly.

For fixtures: each 8 plays one another twice each (once at home and once away), and plays the other 16 once each (either at home or away), to give 30 games per team.

For tables: an overall table of 24 teams to see how the youngsters compare to the oldsters; a table of 16 teams to see who the best seniors are; and three separate tables of 8, to find the best of the youngsters, the best if the West, and the best of the East, with a possible play-off between the West and East winners since they would have had different fixtures lists (winners progressing to pyramid play-offs; or East winners, West winners Highland winners, and Club 42 could meet in play-offs; or Club 42 relegated automatically, with Club 41, East winners, West winners and Highland winners competing for 2 SPFL places).

AFAIK the SFA haven't proposed changes to the LL, but are setting up "pyramid working group discussions aimed at providing a longer-term solution to optimise the structure and aid the transition of talented players between the ages of 17 and 21."

Those discussions may indeed lead to changes, or they may fizzle out.

Anyway, it's hard to imagine them coming up with anything worse than your proposal, but you never know.

BTW who are the 8 "elite" clubs?

[ahemps]

While I do not endorse the 'B' teams in the league I believe the cat is out the bag and they are here now so can we find a solution to them that suits everyone?

Could league 1 be expanded to be a 16 team league? 

Create a 18 team 'National league' below league 1 for the best of the Lowland and Highland league teams. 'B' teams could be allowed to be promoted between the National league and Lowland/Highland but not be promoted to league 1? 

I know the answer to this will be no but are the governing bodies looking at options that can push the game on and find common solutions for their members? I hear form time to time about other governing bodies (mostly rugby) where they put out national surveys to their clubs, amateurs and youth teams to find out how to grow the game and if they can make adjustments. This sound so obvious and simple but I have absolutely zero faith that the footballing bodies in this country have the capability or thought process to do something like this.

[Gordon EF]

7 hours ago, ahemps said:

While I do not endorse the 'B' teams in the league I believe the cat is out the bag and they are here now so can we find a solution to them that suits everyone?

Could league 1 be expanded to be a 16 team league? 

Create a 18 team 'National league' below league 1 for the best of the Lowland and Highland league teams. 'B' teams could be allowed to be promoted between the National league and Lowland/Highland but not be promoted to league 1? 

How many of the current League One and Two clubs do you think would vote for that? My bet is 0.

Quote

I know the answer to this will be no but are the governing bodies looking at options that can push the game on and find common solutions for their members? I hear form time to time about other governing bodies (mostly rugby) where they put out national surveys to their clubs, amateurs and youth teams to find out how to grow the game and if they can make adjustments. This sound so obvious and simple but I have absolutely zero faith that the footballing bodies in this country have the capability or thought process to do something like this.

This is 100% what the SFA and SPFL should be doing. As opposed to sitting patiently awaiting call from Parkhead or Ibrox and just saying "OK".

[ahemps]

1 hour ago, Gordon EF said:

How many of the current League One and Two clubs do you think would vote for that? My bet is 0.

Why is that?

I am only brainstorming by the way. It is 1 idea and happy to discuss the pros and cons to it so why is a 10 team league better than 16 for the lower leagues?

[Gordon EF]

On 13/06/2022 at 18:53, ahemps said:

Why is that?

I am only brainstorming by the way. It is 1 idea and happy to discuss the pros and cons to it so why is a 10 team league better than 16 for the lower leagues?

Aye, I was probably a bit reactionary there.

To find a compromise, the vast majority of SPFL clubs are going to have to feel that the benefits to them outweigh the negatives. Not an ideal scenario but it's realistic.

Think about current League One clubs. What do they want? Probably a better chance at getting into the championship. What do they really not want? To get dragged closer to the SPFL trap door and to be in a League with colt teams. Your solution offers a bigger league, fine, that's probably generally favourable to most clubs. But you've given them no increased chance to get into or stay in the championship, you've weakened L1 on average (which the bigger L1 clubs won't want) and you've brought the PT L1 clubs closer to the trapdoor, knowing they're only one bas season away from dropping out of the SPFL and into some league filled with colts. What possible incentive is there for say Falkirk to vote for this, or Clyde to vote for this?

In L2, you're immediately telling them that 40% will drop out of the SPFL at a stroke. The weaker L2 clubs will obviously vote against this. And what do the stronger L2 clubs get? Being in an expanded L1 with no greater chance of moving up but a much higher chance of being relegated. On the basis of self-interest, you've given L1 and L2 clubs nothing that they really want and given them a whole load of what they don't want, with the only sliver of carrot being that most probably marginally prefer a 16 team league to a 10 team league. It won't be enough to get the majority to vote for it. Nowhere near.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Gordon EF

[Andy groundhopper]

12-16-16 with the LL and HL champions straight up. Trying to find a way to stop club 42 and others complaining. 41 and 42 play HL and LL runners-up, which gives them a decent chance of staying up. Lower legs of 16 = 30 games. Champions straight up, 2nd v 3rd semi final (against) clubs 14th v 15th semi final. Expect I've messed up the maths or lost my way somewhere - I was doing so well, in my head

[Gordon EF]

There's a number of fairly crucial 'wedge issues' that most people don't seem to realise have to be gotten over before any serious reconstruction can take place:

• SPFL money redistribution: Clubs at the top resent having to share money with clubs at the bottom. Don't for one minute think Ann Budge gives a shit how much travelling Elgin City or Albion Rovers do or even if these clubs went bust. She just wants to hoard more of the sponsorship and TV money and cut off the redistribution of cash to clubs at the bottom. Clubs at the bottom of the SPFL will resist any moves to significantly reduce the payments they get form the SPFL.
• Colts: The OF, and possibly a few other Premier League clubs are desperate to have colt teams in the SPFL. The majority of Championship, L1, and L2 clubs are dead against it. The OF will likely veto any serious reconstruction that doesn't allow entry of their colt teams into the SPFL. The rest of the SPFL will keep vetoing colt entry into the SPFL. This is likely going to be a hard impasse. the only way colts will get into the SPFL is if the OF basically agree to a laundry list of wishes from lower league clubs and agree to hand over significantly more cash. But then, what will the likes of Livingston, Ross County, etc, do then. They have to pay the price for OF colts clubs while getting none of the perks? They'll likely not support that.
• Promotion into the SPFL: An obvious one. Those inside don't want to increase promotion / relegation and those outside do. It's likely that the only way to win over the part-time clubs is to increase the size of the league so that they feel in less danger. But that comes back to the first two points. Will clubs higher up the chain agree to spread the money amongst even more clubs and will the OF simply veto anything out of spite for not involving colt teams.

The only realistic solution I can see on the horizon is to allow colts in, get 2 up / 2 down from HL and LL into the SPFL and expand the leagues to something like 12-12-12-12. With the clubs who have colt sides footing the bill for the extra 6 sides in the SPFL.

Or even something like 12-12-16 with a national conference of 16 between tier 3 and the HL/LL. Again, with the clubs with colts stumping up the extra cash to cover small redistributive payments to clubs in the new tier 4.

[Robalot]

I think they should get rid of League Two. Merge the clubs of L2 with L1. Have a big league of 20 clubs.

What is the point of League 2?

[Spyro]

1 hour ago, Robalot said:

I think they should get rid of League Two. Merge the clubs of L2 with L1. Have a big league of 20 clubs.

What is the point of League 2?

Agreed. It would allow there to be more relegation spots to the Highland and Lowland League, create some positive movement and will probably do most of the chronic bottom dwellers of the leagues a favour in creating more competition and interest

[Guest]

On 26/01/2023 at 18:53, Robalot said:

I think they should get rid of League Two. Merge the clubs of L2 with L1. Have a big league of 20 clubs.

What is the point of League 2?

Maybe merge Leagues 1 & 2, but split it North(ish) and South(ish), and immediately add two each from Highland and Lowland Leagues. Promotion is thereby offered to the non-leaguers with no immediate relegation threat to the perennial strugglers, throwing them a bone and giving them some time to plan ahead.  

After the first season of the new parallel third tier divisions, again no relegation but two more promoted to each division, and repeated the following season. 

Thereafter, relegation is introduced for 15th and 16th in each league, with 14th playing off against 3rd in HL/LL. The bottleneck at either end of the HL/LL has now been removed and a more realistic pyramid has evolved.

Just a suggestion as the original poster requested - with the admission that  I don't have a dog in the fight, yet, so it's easier to be dispassionate about the whole thing.  

Edited January 28, 2023 by IncomingExile

[Robalot]

I think the future of football includes Cross Border leagues and this can actually happen without losing big clubs from domestic leagues altogether and IMO suits Scottish football. 

This can happen by splitting the season into TW0.

• Winter League of 12 clubs play each other twice. (22 games). 
• This season will be from August until December. 
• Top 3 qualify  for cross border league (Belgium/Netherlands/Scotland for example). (9 clubs). 
• Winner of league receives Scottish Winter League Trophy. 
• Places in this league adheres to UEFA qualifcations. i.e winners get CL football, etc 

So while (for example) Celtic, Rangers and Hearts go off and play in the Cross Border league for the rest of the season. (January - May). The rest of the top Scottish clubs play each other in the Summer League. 

• Cross Border league of 9 clubs play each other twice. (16 games) 
• Summer League of top Scottish Clubs play each other twice (16 games) 
• These means that no matter what league clubs are placed in, it results to 38 league games. 

At the end of the season the winner of the Scottish Winter League and winner of  Scottish Summer league play for the Scottish Premiership trophy in a final. The interesting part about this, is that the final will probably never include Celtic v Rangers. 

This also makes Cross Border competition possible without a closed shop. You NEED to get promoted to get into the cross border league. It keep the pyramid system

 

[Bairn in Exile]

14 hours ago, Robalot said:

I think the future of football includes Cross Border leagues and this can actually happen without losing big clubs from domestic leagues altogether and IMO suits Scottish football. 

This can happen by splitting the season into TW0.

• Winter League of 12 clubs play each other twice. (22 games). 
• This season will be from August until December. 
• Top 3 qualify  for cross border league (Belgium/Netherlands/Scotland for example). (9 clubs). 
• Winner of league receives Scottish Winter League Trophy. 
• Places in this league adheres to UEFA qualifcations. i.e winners get CL football, etc 1

So while (for example) Celtic, Rangers and Hearts go off and play in the Cross Border league for the rest of the season. (January - May). The rest of the top Scottish clubs play each other in the Summer League. 

• Cross Border league of 9 clubs play each other twice. (16 games) 2
• Summer League of top Scottish Clubs play each other twice (16 games) 3
• These means that no matter what league clubs are placed in, it results to 38 league games. 

At the end of the season the winner of the Scottish Winter League and winner of  Scottish Summer league play for the Scottish Premiership trophy in a final. The interesting part about this, is that the final will probably never include Celtic v Rangers. 

This also makes Cross Border competition possible without a closed shop. You NEED to get promoted to get into the cross border league. 4  It keep the pyramid system

 

This seems to be extremely complicated.

1) The top 3 teams who go onto the Cross Border League have already achieved qualification for the next season's European competitions via the Scottish Winter League, correct? 2) So the Cross Border League will just be 16 glorified friendlies as there is nothing to be gained by winning the league, is there? Any trophy "won" will be meaningless, on a par with the Charity Shield and I would assume not recognised by UEFA 3) Last season we had 5 Scottish teams playing in Europe. Do the 2 clubs not going into the Cross Border League keep their qualifying places that they won playing in the Winter League? Or do they have to play for them all over again in the Summer League?

Now let us say that by some miracle Celtic qualify for the Cross Border League but Sevco don't - they have played each other twice now but the TV broadcasters will lose the other 2 Arse Cheek games that they and the Scottish Football authorities seem so desperate to keep hold of - so it just wouldn't be accepted.

4) But the Cross Border League is "disbanded" at the end of each Summer Season, yes? So even if say Celtic were to win it they have to go back into their domestic league the next season to qualify for it all over again, yes? So they haven't really be promoted, have they? There is no pyramid system.

I admire and respect your out the box thinking but I think that it is back to the drawing board.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Bairn in Exile

[Stag Nation]

20 hours ago, Robalot said:

I think the future of football includes Cross Border leagues and this can actually happen without losing big clubs from domestic leagues altogether and IMO suits Scottish football. 

This can happen by splitting the season into TW0.

• Winter League of 12 clubs play each other twice. (22 games). 
• This season will be from August until December. 
• Top 3 qualify  for cross border league (Belgium/Netherlands/Scotland for example). (9 clubs). 
• Winner of league receives Scottish Winter League Trophy. 
• Places in this league adheres to UEFA qualifcations. i.e winners get CL football, etc 

So while (for example) Celtic, Rangers and Hearts go off and play in the Cross Border league for the rest of the season. (January - May). The rest of the top Scottish clubs play each other in the Summer League. 

• Cross Border league of 9 clubs play each other twice. (16 games) 
• Summer League of top Scottish Clubs play each other twice (16 games) 
• These means that no matter what league clubs are placed in, it results to 38 league games. 

At the end of the season the winner of the Scottish Winter League and winner of  Scottish Summer league play for the Scottish Premiership trophy in a final. The interesting part about this, is that the final will probably never include Celtic v Rangers. 

This also makes Cross Border competition possible without a closed shop. You NEED to get promoted to get into the cross border league. It keep the pyramid system

 

So ... instead of competing with the likes of Barcelona, Real Madrid and PSGs in the current UEFA competitions, our top clubs would be playing the Dutch and Belgians. I can't see that being very attractive. Probably even less so for the Dutch and Belgians!

[Robalot]

On 30/01/2023 at 05:19, Bairn in Exile said:

This seems to be extremely complicated.

 

Its not extremely complicated at all. Its actually quite simple. 

You'd keep the UEFA requirements of qualification in the domestic leagues to keep the integrity of domestic leagues. 

The cross boarder league of potentially Ajax, Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Gent, PSV Einhoven, Feyenoord, Club Brugge, would attract a lot of sponsorship and tv deals. 

You have to earn qualification into the league to keep the integrity of football. Rather than have a closed shop. 

It wouldn't be a bunch of glorified "friendlies" because there'd be prize money and a shiny trophy to be earned at the end of it.

The biggest Dutch and Belgium clubs are already looking for cross border competition and would welcome Celtic and Rangers. 

 

 

[Cyclizine]

23 hours ago, Robalot said:

The biggest Dutch and Belgium clubs are already looking for cross border competition and would welcome Celtic and Rangers

This is bollocks, they rejected the idea of a Benelux league last year.

[kilMARKnock]

League reconstruction you say, doomed we are 

[Marten]

On 01/02/2023 at 10:17, Cyclizine said:

This is bollocks, they rejected the idea of a Benelux league last year.

Yep, once every few years someone comes up with one of these league merger ideas, only for it to be roundly rejected each time, especially in The Netherlands.

[FairWeatherFan]

12 hours ago, Marten said:

Yep, once every few years someone comes up with one of these league merger ideas, only for it to be roundly rejected each time, especially in The Netherlands.

When I saw the news above that the BeNe Liga wasn't happening I had a look to see what happened. During which I saw mention of the Dutch clubs trying to get an NL League off the ground.

As you can imagine trying to search NL League for more information isn't the most helpful. Is this just the Dutch Premier League moment, where the clubs break away from the FA?

http://www.football-oranje.com/top-dutch-clubs-pull-out-of-beneliga-talks/

[Marten]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

When I saw the news above that the BeNe Liga wasn't happening I had a look to see what happened. During which I saw mention of the Dutch clubs trying to get an NL League off the ground.

As you can imagine trying to search NL League for more information isn't the most helpful. Is this just the Dutch Premier League moment, where the clubs break away from the FA?

http://www.football-oranje.com/top-dutch-clubs-pull-out-of-beneliga-talks/

Yeah, it would be similar to the Premier League but to be honest, I'm not sure whether that is going to happen. Smaller clubs (like mine) don't seem too keen on it. But any potential reform won't involve clubs outside The Netherlands.