League reconstruction: Let's hear your view

[invergowrie arab]

2 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Everyone?

Aye, we're they f**k 

[Melanius Mullarkey]

Two team top league with the winners earning promotion to the English/European leagues and the bottom team being relagated to the English/European leagues.

Asap.

(top league disbanded after 1 season)

[RabidAI]

On 19/04/2022 at 09:03, Donathan said:

It’s interesting, go back 5 or 6 years and everyone was saying that there are too many clubs playing at the national level and it should just be 2x16 or 12-10-10 and then regional after that. The emergence of Cove, Kelty Hearts, Bonnyrigg etc has created more demand to play in national level leagues not less.

 

If there’s to be an insistence on a 12 team top tier, then I’d prefer the 12-12 (8-8-8) structure that was mooted years ago. You play 22 games and then the top two leagues merge into top 8, middle 8 and bottom 8 for the last 14 games. The top 8 play for the title and European spots, the middle 8 play for promotion/relegation and the bottom 8 play to avoid relegation from the championship.

 

The one issue I can see with this structure is that the points are reset to 0 after the split so once it becomes apparent that a team will be in a particular section, there might be some dead rubbers towards the halfway point. 
 

 

However, I think you could have a 24 team premiership (split into divisions 1 and 2) and then a 24 team Scottish conference league that consists roughly of the current league one teams (apart from Cove Rangers and Airdrie), league two teams and the top 3 from each of the HL and LL. This league would play a 46 game season. 

Dividing into three wee leagues of eight at matchday 22 seems too early: having so many games after the split might end up with many meaningless matches in the bottom and middle sections as soon as teams are safe or relegated. As you have intimated, this would also be an issue if teams in the middle eight all begin with zero points - but with the meaningless matches coming before the split once teams have qualified for that section.

For those reasons, I would only split into three sections after teams have played each other three times - 33 games each.  That would just leave a wee 7-game sprint to the finish, where teams just play once against those in their section - 40 league games each in total.

For the middle eight to be fair, league positions before the split would need to convert to an initial post-split points allocation.  This would have to take into account how unjust it would be for ninth in the Premiership to be relegated or fourth from the Championship to be promoted, for example, aswell as to keep the pre-split games meaningful.

[Donathan]

58 minutes ago, RabidAI said:

Dividing into three wee leagues of eight at matchday 22 seems too early: having so many games after the split might end up with many meaningless matches in the bottom and middle sections as soon as teams are safe or relegated. As you have intimated, this would also be an issue if teams in the middle eight all begin with zero points - but with the meaningless matches coming before the split once teams have qualified for that section.

For those reasons, I would only split into three sections after teams have played each other three times - 33 games each.  That would just leave a wee 7-game sprint to the finish, where teams just play once against those in their section - 40 league games each in total.

For the middle eight to be fair, league positions before the split would need to convert to an initial post-split points allocation.  This would have to take into account how unjust it would be for ninth in the Premiership to be relegated or fourth from the Championship to be promoted, for example, aswell as to keep the pre-split games meaningful.

Can you not see the issue with having odd numbers of games before and after the split? I realise that’s also what we have just now but imo that’s one of the worst aspects of the current system. It’s a fundamental issue with the current system that we cannot guarantee an even split of home/away games 

[RabidAI]

I can, yes. 

I thought to make a virtue of it by awarding the top four teams qualifying for the top eight and bottom eight mini-leagues with home advantage for four of the final seven games.  Hopefully the intensity of the competition (and better sponsorship) would eclipse any unfairnesses, and there would be more home games on average with teams playing forty games each.

For the middle eight, I might try to start with the following table:

1st - 10 points, 4 home games - 9th from Premiership 

2nd - 8 points, 4 home games - 10th from Premiership

3rd - 7 points, 4 home games - 1st from Championship

4th - 5 points, 4 home games - 11th from Premiership

5th - 5 points, 3 home games - 2nd from Championship

6th - 3 points, 3 home games - 12th from Premiership

7th - 2 points, 3 home games - 3rd from Championship

8th - 0 points, 3 home games - 4th from Championship

What that does is reflect the current situation by  giving preference to the best two Premiership teams; ranks first from the Championship above the bottom two from the Premiership; ranks eleventh from the Premiership marginally above second from the Championship; and ranks twelfth from the Premiership above the bottom two from the Championship - who still have their slimmer chance at success.

Difficult to balance out unfairnesses and to keep the pre-split games meaningful; post-split games, however, should be competitive to the end because of there being four relegation and four promotion places.

Edited April 21, 2022 by RabidAI

[footnotes]

You'd need to be more consistent than that with your points intervals if you wanted to be fair.  So you could say at the outset that every position a team finishes higher in the table before the split is worth a win / an additional 3 point head start after the split.

Using your basic model.  The Premier teams would begin the middle 8 with 12 points (4 home games), 9 pts (4h), 6 pts (4h), 3 pts (3h) and the Champ teams begin with 9pts (4h), 6pts (3h), 3pts (3h) 0 pts (3h).

But I can't see why Premier clubs would vote for a far greater chance of relegation or the old firm being interested in a longer domestic season.

Edited April 21, 2022 by footnotes

[grazza]

If though you go as far as 18 team league at tier 2 then crowds will be surely lower as you wont have as many meaningful matches like we have had this season. Granted there is less jeopardy so maybe more likely to give young players more match time. Though I think likes of Ayr, Morton, Raith, QOTS and Queen Park there may be less need for full time football if they can just be at the high end of part time wages.  Full time would really be only if you were making a real expected push for promotion to premier where as at the moment it is really if you want to a- be a championship club, b - sustain this over longer than couple years, c - get jammy cos league is relatively small and sneak into 4th for promotion play offs. 

 

 

[footnotes]

I think I can see your point.  So maybe a 12 or 14 team second division with a split would keep clubs happy if it allowed more of the traditionally full time clubs to play themselves x4 yet also give more of the new wave their chance at a higher level. 

I think ideally we'd do away with any splits.  And have the top 10 playing x4, the middle 14 playing x3 and the bottom 18 playing x2.

[Sergeant Wilson]

48 minutes ago, footnotes said:

I think I can see your point.  So maybe a 12 or 14 team second division with a split would keep clubs happy if it allowed more of the traditionally full time clubs to play themselves x4 yet also give more of the new wave their chance at a higher level. 

I think ideally we'd do away with any splits.  And have the top 10 playing x4, the middle 14 playing x3 and the bottom 18 playing x2.

Like the system that was in place before and was dropped after one season because it was shite?

[RabidAI]

1 hour ago, footnotes said:

I think I can see your point.  So maybe a 12 or 14 team second division with a split would keep clubs happy if it allowed more of the traditionally full time clubs to play themselves x4 yet also give more of the new wave their chance at a higher level. 

I think ideally we'd do away with any splits.  And have the top 10 playing x4, the middle 14 playing x3 and the bottom 18 playing x2.

Rangers and Celtic could make that happen, if they genuinely wanted a shorter, 36-game league season in order to boost their chances in European competitions.

They don't really need the domestic prize money that they earn for finishing in the top places - because they make significantly more from competing in Europe. 

So they could certainly take a lower percentage of league revenues, as part of a genuine all-through financial model.  One properly supporting the second tier, on a continuous sliding scale, without the great drop-off between Premiership and Championship payments.

[Gordon EF]

On 24/04/2022 at 23:56, grazza said:

If though you go as far as 18 team league at tier 2 then crowds will be surely lower as you wont have as many meaningful matches like we have had this season. Granted there is less jeopardy so maybe more likely to give young players more match time. Though I think likes of Ayr, Morton, Raith, QOTS and Queen Park there may be less need for full time football if they can just be at the high end of part time wages.  Full time would really be only if you were making a real expected push for promotion to premier where as at the moment it is really if you want to a- be a championship club, b - sustain this over longer than couple years, c - get jammy cos league is relatively small and sneak into 4th for promotion play offs. 

 

 

16 should be the max size for leagues, assuming there's a reasonable number of promotion / relegation / play-off spots to keep the middle interesting.

I'd like to see us go 12-12-16 with splits in all leagues to give 33+5, 33+5, and 30+7 games for each club. If we had to create a new national 'conference' league underneath that to appease SPFL clubs scared of dropping out, so be it.

A 16 team League One. Bottom 2 go down. HL and LL winners come up automatically, 2nd place in HL and LL play off to face 4rd bottom of League One. Tell the LL and HL that they have to punt all colts teams and open up promotion/relegation spots at the bottom of their own league to get it implemented.

[Stag Nation]

3 hours ago, RabidAI said:

Rangers and Celtic could make that happen, if they genuinely wanted a shorter, 36-game league season in order to boost their chances in European competitions.

They don't really need the domestic prize money that they earn for finishing in the top places - because they make significantly more from competing in Europe. 

So they could certainly take a lower percentage of league revenues, as part of a genuine all-through financial model.  One properly supporting the second tier, on a continuous sliding scale, without the great drop-off between Premiership and Championship payments.

I doubt if the "Rangers" shareholders would agree. The new club has never made a profit, and has in fact lost a total of £100 million to date.

[footnotes]

3 hours ago, RabidAI said:

Rangers and Celtic could make that happen, if they genuinely wanted a shorter, 36-game league season in order to boost their chances in European competitions.

They don't really need the domestic prize money that they earn for finishing in the top places - because they make significantly more from competing in Europe. 

So they could certainly take a lower percentage of league revenues, as part of a genuine all-through financial model.  One properly supporting the second tier, on a continuous sliding scale, without the great drop-off between Premiership and Championship payments.

A top 10 seems optimal commercially (and so earns more money to share around) because it guarantees that the biggest clubs each meet x4.  As seen this season any split can prevent that - although the rejected 2 divisions of 12 splitting into 3 of 8 comes closest to replicating it.  Maybe why it was nearly voted through.  

[B75]

On 27/04/2022 at 14:11, Gordon EF said:

16 should be the max size for leagues, assuming there's a reasonable number of promotion / relegation / play-off spots to keep the middle interesting.

I'd like to see us go 12-12-16 with splits in all leagues to give 33+5, 33+5, and 30+7 games for each club. If we had to create a new national 'conference' league underneath that to appease SPFL clubs scared of dropping out, so be it.

A 16 team League One. Bottom 2 go down. HL and LL winners come up automatically, 2nd place in HL and LL play off to face 4rd bottom of League One. Tell the LL and HL that they have to punt all colts teams and open up promotion/relegation spots at the bottom of their own league to get it implemented.

You want 12-12-16? There's 42 clubs currently in the spfl, your reconstruction only has 40.

[Gordon EF]

5 hours ago, B75 said:

You want 12-12-16? There's 42 clubs currently in the spfl, your reconstruction only has 40.

Yeah. That's the way I'd do it if staying at or above 42 wasn't a consideration.

12-16-16 is also fine.

[Cornishman]

Eh. Here's a model which would satisfy both the 'need' for Premiership competitors to have four seasonal OF games, and the 'problem' of perceiving that there are too few teams in each division.

How about we go for an SPFL constructed 16-16-16 in three tiers? The Premiership would include twelve teams plus the OF... but, crucially, the arsecheeks are allowed to play each of their fixtures vs. their various opponents twice ~ once with the identity of '1st.match-team' and followed chronologically in the identity of '2nd.match-team'. Each identity holds it's own separate league place, without opportunity to favour one or the other, simply because it's obvious that in playing any 'Team X', it's difficult to play a second match against them before the first match against them!!!

Of course, a rule to ensure that both identities play their 'best First Team' for each and every match would be required. So... NO B-Team!

The matter of the supposed required fixture: 'Left Cheek 1st.match-team' v. 'Left Cheek 2nd.match-team' would be obviated by the non-match being awarded as a 0-0 draw.

With a 30-game fixture list a top-8/bottom-8 split for seven extra matches would fill-up to 37 games. Noting that no matter 30-game finishing positions, the lower-placed of both OF identities will always play out in the bottom-8 competition, with upward adjustment as necessary for other teams.

Final League positions for the season would only count each Cheek's highest qualified identity, however, all other teams would retain all points earned [same as presently operates in the SLFL]. Same would operate in regard to Euro competition qualification.

Regarding OF relegation: Normally, we'd expect 2-up/down, but each OF lower-finishing team can only be relegated if the higher-finishing identity occupies 3rd.-last place and rarely, 4th.-last place too [only if all OF identities occupy all bottom-4 places in the latter case].

Six extra teams would be needed in the League to fulfil the 16-16-16 model.

Bizarre, I know, but if this model be adopted, have I covered all important points?

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Cornishman

[Sergeant Wilson]

Give it a rest, for fucksake!

[Jacksgranda]

On 27/04/2022 at 14:11, Gordon EF said:

16 should be the max size for leagues, assuming there's a reasonable number of promotion / relegation / play-off spots to keep the middle interesting.

I'd like to see us go 12-12-16 with splits in all leagues to give 33+5, 33+5, and 30+7 games for each club. If we had to create a new national 'conference' league underneath that to appease SPFL clubs scared of dropping out, so be it.

A 16 team League One. Bottom 2 go down. HL and LL winners come up automatically, 2nd place in HL and LL play off to face 4rd bottom of League One. Tell the LL and HL that they have to punt all colts teams and open up promotion/relegation spots at the bottom of their own league to get it implemented.

So you'd be better finishing 14th as 13th?

[Gordon EF]

7 hours ago, Jacksgranda said:

So you'd be better finishing 14th as 13th?

Yeah, why not.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

22 hours ago, Cornishman said:

Eh. Here's a model which would satisfy both the 'need' for Premiership competitors to have four seasonal OF games, and the 'problem' of perceiving that there are too few teams in each division.

How about we go for an SPFL constructed 16-16-16 in three tiers? The Premiership would include twelve teams plus the OF... but, crucially, the arsecheeks are allowed to play each of their fixtures vs. their various opponents twice ~ once with the identity of '1st.match-team' and followed chronologically in the identity of '2nd.match-team'. Each identity holds it's own separate league place, without opportunity to favour one or the other, simply because it's obvious that in playing any 'Team X', it's difficult to play a second match against them before the first match against them!!!

Of course, a rule to ensure that both identities play their 'best First Team' for each and every match would be required. So... NO B-Team!

The matter of the supposed required fixture: 'Left Cheek 1st.match-team' v. 'Left Cheek 2nd.match-team' would be obviated by the non-match being awarded as a 0-0 draw.

With a 30-game fixture list a top-8/bottom-8 split for seven extra matches would fill-up to 37 games. Noting that no matter 30-game finishing positions, the lower-placed of both OF identities will always play out in the bottom-8 competition, with upward adjustment as necessary for other teams.

Final League positions for the season would only count each Cheek's highest qualified identity, however, all other teams would retain all points earned [same as presently operates in the SLFL]. Same would operate in regard to Euro competition qualification.

Regarding OF relegation: Normally, we'd expect 2-up/down, but each OF lower-finishing team can only be relegated if the higher-finishing identity occupies 3rd.-last place and rarely, 4th.-last place too [only if all OF identities occupy all bottom-4 places in the latter case].

Six extra teams would be needed in the League to fulfil the 16-16-16 model.

Bizarre, I know, but if this model be adopted, have I covered all important points?

 

what the f**k was that i just read