League reconstruction: Let's hear your view

[Stag Nation]

1 hour ago, Gordon EF said:

The whole 'Masters' or blending of multiple leagues at some point during the season sounds absolutely shite to me. If anyone thinks it'll appeal to folk abroad who'll tune in to watch it in any significant numbers, they're deluded.

Imagine it, "Hey, Sergio, fancy watching a meaningless end of season game between Motherwell and HIbs that has no bearing on a League title race we already don't give a shit about?"

"Ah but hang on, it's called the Scottish Masters now."

Indeed. The phrase "polishing a turd" comes to mind.

[RabidAI]

I have this idea that, because most clubs are within the lowland area, the Lowland champions could be automatically promoted to the SPFL with the LL being the de facto national tier 5. 

Highland area clubs could always have sort of branch-line access via a play-off with SPFL Club 41, but there would generally be a smooth main-line transition of one lowland-based SPFL Club 42 being automatically replaced by the LL winners most seasons.

[ftk]

Rightly or wrongly Scottish Football is all about the 'old firm'. It HAS to be 4 old firm games, nothing else!

Instead of creating bigger leagues with stupid splits just leave them too it. Have a top league of 10 teams play each 4 times. 1 down. Could still have playoffs.

Then below that we can have 2 leagues of 18 teams adding in some of the better highland/ lowland league teams.

Advantages of this are that probably all the bigger city teams will be in the Premiership playing each other. Then most of the larger town teams that are full time will be in the Championship and all of the best part time teams in League 1. Overall should see more teams of a similar level being in the same league.

Only downside I see is ambitious Championship teams complaining that its too tough to get into the Premiership and stay there. But that probably is the case just now anyway.

[grazza]

Top flight with 12 works well enough obviously the dominance in the last couple years of 2 clubs that is likely to continue means at the top end your limited in what you can do.  While Scotland has 5 clubs in Europe a euro play off could be good. So teams  6th v 7th in semi and then 5th  plays at home to the winner in the final. Creates meaningful matches for teams at top end of bottom half post split

2nd tier - My goal is to keep this as much as possible a full time league but allows ambitious part time clubs to compete and potentially aspire to full time. A small increase to 12 teams with same split as premiership. I would however say there needs to be 2 automatic relegation places. 

3rd tier - 12 teams, champions promoted, runners up in play off final, 3rd  v 4th in semi. Bottom 2 go down automatically. 

4th tier - 18 team league, top 2 automatically promoted then play offs , Bottom 3 automatically relegated,  team 15 in play off with 3 of Tier 5 runners up

5th tier - Lowland becomes, (Western and Eastern Leagues), Highland (3 champions are all promoted, runners up in play offs) Each of these league with 14 teams. 

6th Tier- Highland should try to establish a strong feeder to the highland league so the 4 teams we take out of the current highland league joined by the highest ranked  the current feeder league. Might need to consider a conference style system where there is a north and south split and you play own conference more times than other conference and fixtures planned to limit cross conference travel when weather is at its worse. 

Highland Championship North - Lossiemouth, Turriff, Invergordon, Banks Of Dee, Bridge of Don Thistle, Hermes

Highland Championship South - Fort William, Strathspey, Carnoustie, East Craigie, Lochee Utd, Broughty Athletic

Western Championship and Eastern Championship feed into their leagues. Teams on getting to tier 6 have 3 years to become licensed or be demoted if no evidence of sufficient progress to be licensed. 

7th tier  - Glasgow West (renfrewshire / Argyll), Glasgow East(lanarkshire), Ayrshire, Dumfries and Galloway, Midlands Grampian, Tayside, Highland, Lothians, Fife & Central, Borders 

8th Tier - Developmental like current WOSL division 4. Would be good if these clubs were invited into regional cups with 7th tier clubs in their region. 

Scottish cup - Round of 64 would be great for when the last teams enter. All tier 6 teams can get a temporary licence to enter however will have a cut taken from prize money placed in a bond they get back when licensed. Non league/ junior cup and amateur cup winners invited 

League cup. Assuming 5 teams in Europe and 11  places to join them in last 16. Tier 1-3 all get straight in group = 31 clubs. Joined by 5 highest ranked teams from tier 4. 36 teams - 6 groups. Group winners go into last 16.  Runners up and best 4 3rd places teams go into a play off round to get 5 other teams 

Challenge cup - Winners of non league (junior cup) get invite to this, goes to runner up if they got promoted anyway

junior cup / non league cup -  tier 5 downwards. Possibly early rounds could double up with regional cups if fixture congestion and travel require. 

 

 

 

 

[Stag Nation]

9 hours ago, grazza said:

Top flight with 12 works well enough obviously the dominance in the last couple years of 2 clubs that is likely to continue means at the top end your limited in what you can do. 

"Couple of years"?

It's been won exclusively by Celtic and Rangers/Sevco since 1986.

[grazza]

Well aye but just using existing clubs so last couple years covers Sevco. Could have got rid of 11-1 vote system but Aberdeen ruined that. 

[footnotes]

Another possibility would be to expand the Premiership to 14 teams, split after 26 games into top 8 and bottom 6.

Divide the top 8 into two groups, but for their fixtures only - 1st, 2nd, 7th, 8th and 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th - with the league table remaining a top 8.

Teams play at home and away against those in their fixture group (6 games), and at home or away against those in the opposite fixture group (4 games).

That gives a broadly fair way to reach 36 games and retains the four old firm matches whilst enabling more teams to be involved.

The bottom 6 would play home and away to avoid two direct and one play off relegation place (36 games per team).

I realise it may be fairest to divide the fixture groups into 1, 4, 5, 8 and 2, 3, 6, 7, but that leaves us one old firm match shy - which may have to be part of some pre-season "masters" competition or some such lunacy.

(A further way would be for the top 6 to carry on to 36 games, with the bottom 8 dividing into two groups with fixtures organised broadly in line with the above).

Edited April 10, 2022 by footnotes

[RabidAI]

It's not lunacy to try to retain your elite fixtures in order to facilitate league expansion.  Or to showcase those best v best fixtures in the summer, when other leagues have shut down.  That's probably an improvement.

I see you've reduced the fixtures burden to a 36-game season, so that would give more freedom for a wee elite tournament, perhaps across July weekends.

[footnotes]

Understood!  I was just pulling yer leg.  

I quite like the idea actually as something to whet the appetite on Saturdays/Sundays for the season immediately ahead, and it might gain attention whilst the main European leagues are having a rest.  I don't know if having our European teams playing in it in a league cup style of group would be as appealing as a knock out version, though.  And even though a 36 match day season might only begin mid August, big clubs would still want their glamour friendlies on some of those July and August weekends.  Nevertheless, such a high level of head to head competition isn't something our game has and could well improve the European performance of our teams.

Back to expanding the league.  16 teams splitting after 30 games, could give a top 8 and bottom 8 whose fixtures could be as I described in my previous post, giving a fair 38 game season per team yet retaining 4 old firm matches.

Edited April 10, 2022 by footnotes
Are you Darren?

[Donathan]

16 with a 4-8-4 split is a way of keeping a 36 game season with four OF games but still expanding the league.

 

Double round robin = 30 games.

 

Then split into:

 

Group A - 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th

Group B -  5th, 8th, 9th and 12th

Group C - 6th, 7th, 10th and 11th

Group D - 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th

 

Each group plays another double round robin for 36 games total.

 

Group A are playing for the title.

 

Group D are playing to stay up.

 

Groups B and C are playing for European places. The winners of each group will enter into European playoffs with the bottom side from Group A.

 

Only question I’d ask is to what extent should the points carry over after the split? Ideally I’d want to give everyone something to play for post split but without making the regular season totally meaningless. 

[Andy groundhopper]

Christ, everyone has a passion for the splits - wouldn't make the blindest of difference with the OF, can't see anyone getting close for a few years - and TV deals are all about them. My biggest hope is to make lower divisions competitive, and to make the jump from the HL and LL easier - both champions straight up. Clubs 41 & 42 stop moaning, you're down there for a reason. OR you increase the bottom division ?

[RabidAI]

16 hours ago, footnotes said:

Understood!  I was just pulling yer leg.  

I quite like the idea actually as something to whet the appetite on Saturdays/Sundays for the season immediately ahead, and it might gain attention whilst the main European leagues are having a rest.  I don't know if having our European teams playing in it in a league cup style of group would be as appealing as a knock out version, though.  And even though a 36 match day season might only begin mid August, big clubs would still want their glamour friendlies on some of those July and August weekends.  Nevertheless, such a high level of head to head competition isn't something our game has and could well improve the European performance of our teams.

Back to expanding the league.  16 teams splitting after 30 games, could give a top 8 and bottom 8 whose fixtures could be as I described in my previous post, giving a fair 38 game season per team yet retaining 4 old firm matches.

Yeah, that would be 40 games each you twit.

I'd be happy enough with 16 teams, playing home and away to split at 30 games into a top 6 and bottom 10.

Top 6 do the elite thing, home and away (40 games each); bottom 10 play again at home or away (39 games each).  With the battle up to the split and plenty of relegation places (2.5?), and possibly involving 7th in a play-off for Europe then it could be decent.

Or maybe just 18 teams playing home and away for 34 games each, with the top 4 going on to play home and away in a m*****s series, with 5th-8th in Euro play-offs.

Edited April 11, 2022 by RabidAI
Not Darren

[Donathan]

IMO:

 

Premiership: 16 with a 4-8-4 split. Everyone plays 36 games and then there’s European playoffs at the end.

 

Championship: 16 with an 8-8 split. 44 games total.

 

Then I’d go regional below that. Tier 3 would be 3x16 split North/East/West. 
 

I’d design it so that teams are married to a particular rung on the pyramid rather than a particular region. So tier 3 is three leagues of 16, but the exact nature of promotions/relegations might necessitate moving teams between regions like what happens down south.

 

Tiers 4-7 would work in exactly the same way as tier 3 (except that tier 7 would have 7 fewer clubs, so leagues of 13-14 instead)

 

Tiers 3 and below is a 30 game season plus involvement in the newly designed SFA Vase Trophy and a qualification tournament for the Scottish cup. 

 

Tiers 1 and 2, 36/44 games respectively plus involvement in the league cup and direct qualification to the Scottish cup proper. 
 

Promotion/relegation - Apart from between tiers 2 and 3, it would be a straight 3 up/3 down from all leagues. 3 automatic relegation spots, with 2 automatic promotion and then playoffs 3v6 and 4v5 with single leg, neutral ground finals.

 

From tier 2, 3 automatic relegation spots plus 1 relegation playoff spot. From tier 3, the three league winners automatically promoted to the championship, and the three runners up go into a playoff with the 13th placed club from the championship.

 

Colt teams punted altogether however I’d scrap the exemption that clubs playing in Europe get from the league cup group stages (and replace the current 8 groups of 5 playing four games, with 8 groups of 4 playing six). This would force the old firm and other clubs playing in Europe to get creative and field their colts sides in the league cup group stages because their first XI are playing in Slovakia or Hungary. 

[RabidAI]

On 10/04/2022 at 16:55, Donathan said:

16 with a 4-8-4 split is a way of keeping a 36 game season with four OF games but still expanding the league.

 

Double round robin = 30 games.

 

Then split into:

 

Group A - 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th

Group B -  5th, 8th, 9th and 12th

Group C - 6th, 7th, 10th and 11th

Group D - 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th

 

Each group plays another double round robin for 36 games total.

 

Group A are playing for the title.

 

Group D are playing to stay up.

 

Groups B and C are playing for European places. The winners of each group will enter into European playoffs with the bottom side from Group A.

 

Only question I’d ask is to what extent should the points carry over after the split? Ideally I’d want to give everyone something to play for post split but without making the regular season totally meaningless. 

More points before the split could convert to a home advantage for group games.  Or perhaps a small head-start (3 points, 2 points, 1 point, 0 points to start each group).  I'd maybe add in a semi-final knock-out stage.

Or the middle eight teams could just carry on with their 8-team mini-league, playing each other once more for 37 games per team.  The top 2 in a European play-off, possibly with the team finishing bottom of the elite group depending upon who wins the Scottish Cup.

[footnotes]

Better or worse?

12 team Premier.  Double split at 33 games into top 4, middle 4, bottom 4.  All points carry over to after split sections.

Teams in top 4 play one another again to settle title and European places.  36 game season.

Teams in middle 4 play one another again to settle the final European place, or earn an away play off against 4th for final European place.  So - 36 games each plus potential play off match for 5th placed team.

Bottom 4 play one another again to settle relegation places.  36 games each plus potential relegation play off matches.

Improves upon current system by 

- keeping more teams in hunt for Europe for longer (top 8 could still qualify after the split rather than the current top 6)

- ensuring more teams are safe from relegation sooner (top 8 could be safe at split rather than current top 6)

- reduces fixture congestion with a slightly shorter season (36 games rather than 38)

- fewer meaningless games, on average, because there is more to aim for and because of a shorter after split phase

- more excitement generated by additional goals to aim for (upper and lower split plus potential play off for Europe)

- tidier fixtures / fewer imbalances after split due to fewer fixtures to plan for.

The same system could be used in a second division of 12 teams - if second to fifth qualified for the promotion playoffs, which would require 2 directly relegated from the Premier.

Edited April 14, 2022 by footnotes

[RabidAI]

Better

A 36-matchday season in the Premiership would make fixture scheduling easier next season, and in other Euro/World Cup years, without the need for restructuring the league.

A 36-matchday season in the Premiership would also enable relegation play-offs with a 10-team Championship to be the same as the play-offs in the rest of the divisions.

Worse

A top 4 rather than a top 6 would mean fewer head-to-heads between the biggest clubs.

It would also mean fewer clubs would be able to have four home games against the Old Firm.

Therefore...you will never see it in action!

[Unknown Fan]

Can see it being tough for the Premier league to vote for a change to the 12 team league, 11-1 voting system, 3/4 visits of the auld firm...

 

More so thinking that how and in the future with Cove, Kelty, Bonnyrigg, Talbot... there aim is now to get into League one.  Though clearly in Coves placing 90 minutes away from the Championship.

 

My thoughts then turn to the traditionally full time, 2nd tier Clubs, 3rd tier in terms of Falkirk and how they can mitigate against this influx and more competition for tier 2 & 3 places.

Would the likes of Falkirk, Queen of the South, Ayr & Dunfermline be trying and pushing for an 18 team Championship instead?  That being a straight home and away 34 game season, no splits.  Gives a bit more room for the above clubs to ride out a lean season or 2.

3 teams relegated, maybe the 3rd bottom playoff in the same style that is in in place at the moment,  clearly promotion to the premier as before, until there is change from the top tier.

 

Then that would leave a 12 team 3rd tier, keeping the 42 clubs in the league system, though if anything that league could be added to, up to 18 teams I suppose.

I'm not going to get into any Colts chat.

To increase the number of clubs in the national league system above 42 probably something that the SFA would discourage.  Though on the other hand I can't see the national league set up being reduced below 42.

In a handful of years both the lowland and Highland league will be very competitive leagues  nevermind the division their Champions be getting promoted into.

So an 18 Club 2nd Tier, think it has any traction?  A self preservation for the current Championship teams, otherwise I could see a Falkirk or a Dunfermline playing Lowland league football in a handful of years.  Or how long will Falkirk be sitting in League one for, can see a few of these bigger clubs finding it hard too make their way back up with the more competitive League One.

Cove and Queens Park maybe taking 2 of the 2 championship places for next season, with Queens now not amateur with a strong youth set up, they will be looking for Championship football their main stay at least.  Has been near 40 years since they were last in tier 2 I think.

I think an 18 club Championship would be pragmatic for all clubs, I welcome differing thoughts for discussion.

[Donathan]

It’s interesting, go back 5 or 6 years and everyone was saying that there are too many clubs playing at the national level and it should just be 2x16 or 12-10-10 and then regional after that. The emergence of Cove, Kelty Hearts, Bonnyrigg etc has created more demand to play in national level leagues not less.

 

If there’s to be an insistence on a 12 team top tier, then I’d prefer the 12-12 (8-8-8) structure that was mooted years ago. You play 22 games and then the top two leagues merge into top 8, middle 8 and bottom 8 for the last 14 games. The top 8 play for the title and European spots, the middle 8 play for promotion/relegation and the bottom 8 play to avoid relegation from the championship.

 

The one issue I can see with this structure is that the points are reset to 0 after the split so once it becomes apparent that a team will be in a particular section, there might be some dead rubbers towards the halfway point. 
 

 

However, I think you could have a 24 team premiership (split into divisions 1 and 2) and then a 24 team Scottish conference league that consists roughly of the current league one teams (apart from Cove Rangers and Airdrie), league two teams and the top 3 from each of the HL and LL. This league would play a 46 game season. 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Donathan

[footnotes]

22 hours ago, Unknown Fan said:

Can see it being tough for the Premier league to vote for a change to the 12 team league, 11-1 voting system, 3/4 visits of the auld firm...

 

More so thinking that how and in the future with Cove, Kelty, Bonnyrigg, Talbot... there aim is now to get into League one.  Though clearly in Coves placing 90 minutes away from the Championship.

 

My thoughts then turn to the traditionally full time, 2nd tier Clubs, 3rd tier in terms of Falkirk and how they can mitigate against this influx and more competition for tier 2 & 3 places.

Would the likes of Falkirk, Queen of the South, Ayr & Dunfermline be trying and pushing for an 18 team Championship instead?  That being a straight home and away 34 game season, no splits.  Gives a bit more room for the above clubs to ride out a lean season or 2.

3 teams relegated, maybe the 3rd bottom playoff in the same style that is in in place at the moment,  clearly promotion to the premier as before, until there is change from the top tier.

 

Then that would leave a 12 team 3rd tier, keeping the 42 clubs in the league system, though if anything that league could be added to, up to 18 teams I suppose.

I'm not going to get into any Colts chat.

To increase the number of clubs in the national league system above 42 probably something that the SFA would discourage.  Though on the other hand I can't see the national league set up being reduced below 42.

In a handful of years both the lowland and Highland league will be very competitive leagues  nevermind the division their Champions be getting promoted into.

So an 18 Club 2nd Tier, think it has any traction?  A self preservation for the current Championship teams, otherwise I could see a Falkirk or a Dunfermline playing Lowland league football in a handful of years.  Or how long will Falkirk be sitting in League one for, can see a few of these bigger clubs finding it hard too make their way back up with the more competitive League One.

Cove and Queens Park maybe taking 2 of the 2 championship places for next season, with Queens now not amateur with a strong youth set up, they will be looking for Championship football their main stay at least.  Has been near 40 years since they were last in tier 2 I think.

I think an 18 club Championship would be pragmatic for all clubs, I welcome differing thoughts for discussion.

Yes I think it does. 

For the reasons you've stated.  Traditionally bigger clubs like Airdrie, Falkirk, Partick, Dunfermline, nearly St Mirren being displaced into the third level by better organised smaller clubs Arbroath, Cove, Queens Park erodes the logic for keeping the second level playing opponents four times - as bigger away supports are no longer in the division.  Sensible to then have a bigger second level to give more teams a run at the Premier and a better mix of opponents.  Might need to relegate 2 directly from the Premier to keep second division interesting with playoffs down to 5th.  But as you say the Premier ain't for changing.

Good post.

[Sergeant Wilson]

13 hours ago, Donathan said:

It’s interesting, go back 5 or 6 years and everyone was saying that there are too many clubs playing at the national level

Everyone?