League reconstruction: Let's hear your view

[Oldster]

On 11/03/2021 at 11:13, SecretCEO said:

That's right, mate. Sorry for the confusion.

Yeah, my fault too etc etc.

I think it's pretty funny that at the top of page 61 you're suggesting a 14 team top division that has TWO splits, and now you're suggesting a 16 team bottom division where teams can also earn points by beating non-pyramid colt teams!

You do realise Scottish football is a Conservative place, right?

Kevin only knows what you want for the middle tier...

[Sergeant Wilson]

13 minutes ago, Oldster said:

Yeah, my fault too etc etc.

I think it's pretty funny that at the top of page 61 you're suggesting a 14 team top division that has TWO splits, and now you're suggesting a 16 team bottom division where teams can also earn points by beating non-pyramid colt teams!

You do realise Scottish football is a Conservative place, right?

Kevin only knows what you want for the middle tier...

I suspect many of the radical suggestions are from the same guy with multiple accounts. (Maybe you're one and he's created someone to argue with, but let's not go there)

He/them and a few others are hobbyists, cutting bits out the Shoot or the paper, sticking them into jotters. Then doing it again next week.

None of them have been near a football ground.

[St-ow!]

3 hours ago, Oldster said:

Yeah, my fault too etc etc.

I think it's pretty funny that at the top of page 61 you're suggesting a 14 team top division that has TWO splits, and now you're suggesting a 16 team bottom division where teams can also earn points by beating non-pyramid colt teams!

You do realise Scottish football is a Conservative place, right?

Kevin only knows what you want for the middle tier...

Rubbish!

It's less than ten years since the introduction of the pyramid, changes to the league cup and, least conservative of all, the new challenge cup format.

I'm sure you can remember the '90s when the league seemed to be restructured every other season. Forgive a bit if caution rather than go back to a state of continual flux.

Or maybe you only look old because you've smoked so much...

[Oldster]

1 hour ago, St-ow! said:

Rubbish!

It's less than ten years since the introduction of the pyramid, changes to the league cup and, least conservative of all, the new challenge cup format.

I'm sure you can remember the '90s when the league seemed to be restructured every other season. Forgive a bit if caution rather than go back to a state of continual flux.

Or maybe you only look old because you've smoked so much...

I do remember the nineties you cheeky tart. I also remember the long, long time it took to discover the pyramid. Never heard of this "challenge cup" that you speak of. Now get lost for a bit while I have my napnap.

 

 

[theboke]

Someone earlier mentioned our national team's performance versus that of a less populous country, Croatia. In my view they have the best players in terms of technique in world football. 

So I think we can either copy their league structure wholesale and hope it improves our national team performance, or we can send our young coaches out their to learn how it's done.

 

@Crawford Bridge You missed this one!

Edited April 4, 2021 by theboke

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Someone earlier mentioned our national team's performance versus that of a less populous country, Croatia. In my view they have the best players in terms of technique in world football. 
So I think we can either copy their league structure wholesale and hope it improves our national team performance, or we can send our young coaches out their to learn how it's done.

One problem with this line of thinking is that there is a massive lag between making the change and seeing the results.

Had you been asked 8 years ago which small country we should copy you wouldn’t say Croatia who’d just gone out in the first round in Brazil after squeezing past Iceland in the playoffs to qualify and hadn’t even gone to South Africa.

One would probably have said the Netherlands but 8 years earlier it would have been Greece and 8 before that Denmark would be the obvious model

8 years before that and other countries would be choosing Scotland

[Sergeant Wilson]

44 minutes ago, theboke said:

Someone earlier mentioned our national team's performance versus that of a less populous country, Croatia. In my view they have the best players in terms of technique in world football. 

So I think we can either copy their league structure wholesale and hope it improves our national team performance, or we can send our young coaches out their to learn how it's done.

Can we copy their weather, geography, diet and attitude to alcohol? Can we then dismantle 150 years of our league structure and get clubs to accept regional football below a certain level?

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Can we copy their weather, geography, diet and attitude to alcohol? Can we then dismantle 150 years of our league structure and get clubs to accept regional football below a certain level?

I’ve only skimmed this report in the finances of Croatian football so far

http://www.ijf.hr/upload/files/file/ENG/FISCUS/1.pdf

But one point to take away is that the other revenue streams of the game are sufficiently weak elsewhere that developing young players for the export market is pretty fundamental to Croatian clubs’ business models.

If Dinamo Zagreb get 4,000 through the gate that’s a good day and tickets are dirt cheap

As a relatively low wage economy inside the EU Croatia is well placed to compete in this market. Basically the Croatian league is to Série A what Škoda is to Volkswagen

[theboke]

Maybe we're too well off in this country then. Good info, ta.

6 hours ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

 

One problem with this line of thinking is that there is a massive lag between making the change and seeing the results.

Had you been asked 8 years ago which small country we should copy you wouldn’t say Croatia who’d just gone out in the first round in Brazil after squeezing past Iceland in the playoffs to qualify and hadn’t even gone to South Africa.

One would probably have said the Netherlands but 8 years earlier it would have been Greece and 8 before that Denmark would be the obvious model

8 years before that and other countries would be choosing Scotland

 

I would have said Croatia because I've had a bit of a thing for them since France '98, so not a recent conversion for me.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

2 minutes ago, theboke said:

Maybe we're too well off in this country then. Good info, ta.

I would have said Croatia because I've had a bit of a thing for them since France '98, so not a recent conversion for me.

I think everybody* fell for the picnic blanket jersey's in 1998 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* apart from Bosnians and Serbs obviously

[theboke]

23 hours ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

I think everybody* fell for the picnic blanket jersey's in 1998 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* apart from Bosnians and Serbs obviously

Their technique was outstanding even then. I couldn't believe how good they were, and yet they were only this wee nation.

I'd still like to see us give young Scots coaches a broader education, if we can. Send them round various countries to learn what they can, maybe as part of an SFA apprenticeship scheme.

That sort of experience should help them improve our young players (because we don't want to rest on our lauras from just one qualification), as one of a number of strands aimed at sustaining a higher standard of player (maybe including restructuring the league to give development teams real opposition, quotas of teens in first teams, etc as discussed on the preceding page).

Because I've read that to make a system resilient, it needs to have various routes to success. Like the multiple fibres needed to make a strong rope, rather than trying to rely on a single magic silver bullet approach.

Edited March 14, 2021 by theboke
Prattle

[Darren44]

Keep the  premier League as 12 teams. But have the top four play against each other for the Champions league and Europa League.

Teams 5-8 enter Relegation Group A

Teams 9-12 Enter Relegation Group B

The bottom Three teams in each group are relegated and replace by the top six in an expanded championship.

Merge League one and the Championship to twenty teams with the top six promoted.

League 2 increase to 18 clubs have seven premier reserve teams( Celtic B, Aberdeen B)

 

[Jacksgranda]

5 minutes ago, Darren44 said:

Keep the  premier League as 12 teams. But have the top four play against each other for the Champions league and Europa League.

Teams 5-8 enter Relegation Group A

Teams 9-12 Enter Relegation Group B

The bottom Three teams in each group are relegated and replace by the top six in an expanded championship.

Merge League one and the Championship to twenty teams with the top six promoted.

League 2 increase to 18 clubs have seven premier reserve teams( Celtic B, Aberdeen B)

 

That's only two...

[theboke]

11 hours ago, Darren44 said:

Keep the  premier League as 12 teams. But have the top four play against each other for the Champions league and Europa League.

Teams 5-8 enter Relegation Group A

Teams 9-12 Enter Relegation Group B

The bottom Three teams in each group are relegated and replace by the top six in an expanded championship.

Merge League one and the Championship to twenty teams with the top six promoted.

League 2 increase to 18 clubs have seven premier reserve teams( Celtic B, Aberdeen B)

 

So divide the Premiership into 3 at 33 games? 

And round the fixtures up to 36 games each, by playing once more against the other teams in every group of 4?

Your top 4 would guarantee the necessary Old Firm games for TV.

Instead of the way you've described the other two groups of 4, I'd draw them evenly into the groups something like 5, 8, 9, 12 (a) and 6, 7, 10, 11 (b). 

Then have the winners of each group play off for the final European place. And relegate the two groups' bottom teams.

But I don't really like splits so maybe not!

[theboke]

Now and then I see the idea mentioned of regionalising the SPFL's lower levels to save money or increase attendances.

So I did a bit of distance calculating, comparing over a 36 game season the current Leagues One and Two versus the same teams divided into parallel Conferences East and West. 

The surprising result was that dividing into conferences saves about 17,944 miles of traveling, but that this only saves between £10,197 and £20,393 in aggregate travel costs across all 20 clubs.

 

I found the total mileages to be as follows:

17,384 for Conference West,

29,232 for Conference East,

29,824 for League One,

34,736 for League Two,

66,364 for a National League of 18 teams - i.e. 3,687 miles travelled on average per team.

(For average mileages per club, just divide by 10 for the leagues of 10, and 18 for the league of 18.)

 

So while there's a huge saving to be made in terms of travel distances (about 28%) both for clubs and their supporters, the low cost of fuel seems to soften the expense of playing nationwide.

 

(For travel costs, I estimated 5-10 mpg for a bus with diesel costing about £1.25 per litre at Tesco.)

 

Fig. 1. Mileages from town to town for SPFL's 20 lower league clubs, plus part time Alloa and Arbroath.

 

Fig. 2. Mileages added per club per opponent for one single journey. Leagues One and Two.

 

Fig. 3.  Mileages added per club per opponent for one single journey. Conferences East and West.

 

Fig. 4.  Mileages added per club per opponent for single journeys. National League of 18. Initial mileage in the hundreds is carried over from earlier Conferences calculations, with mileages against either Falkirk or Partick deducted as appropriate as they are not included in this hypothetical nationwide league of 18 teams.

 

https://www.driving-distances.com/uk-route-planner-mileage.php

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by theboke

[realmadrid]

On 18/03/2021 at 07:54, Darren44 said:

Keep the  premier League as 12 teams. But have the top four play against each other for the Champions league and Europa League.

Teams 5-8 enter Relegation Group A

Teams 9-12 Enter Relegation Group B

The bottom Three teams in each group are relegated and replace by the top six in an expanded championship.

Merge League one and the Championship to twenty teams with the top six promoted.

League 2 increase to 18 clubs have seven premier reserve teams( Celtic B, Aberdeen B)

 

The number of promotion and relegation places in that proposal is mental.

All players would end up on 1 year deals, no stability at all

With 5 European places a team could go into the last game of the season knowing if they win they are in Europe and if the draw or lose they are relegated 

[Crawford Bridge]

On 13/03/2021 at 09:59, theboke said:

Someone earlier mentioned our national team's performance versus that of a less populous country, Croatia. In my view they have the best players in terms of technique in world football. 

So I think we can either copy their league structure wholesale and hope it improves our national team performance, or we can send our young coaches out their to learn how it's done.

 

@Crawford Bridge You missed this one!

I don't care.

What part of that do you not understand?

You are an oddball.

[theboke]

11 hours ago, Crawford Bridge said:

I don't care.

What part of that do you not understand?

You are an oddball.

Yes I am, thank you. I am also stupid, smelly, ugly and stupid.

The key point, though, is that loaning players to the Scottish lower leagues doesn't produce much in the way of international-class players. And neither do colts or B teams. 

The best players we have tend to break through as teenagers at their club, at whatever level, stay in that nurturing environment for a couple of seasons, then move on up. Clubs should be using them or releasing them, not turning them into loanee journeymen.

So I wonder if we shouldn't be looking at increasing the number of full time clubs, so that these youngsters can play and train day-to-day full time alongside senior pros, in first team rather than development squads.

How to increase the number of full time clubs?

A league structure that enables more part time clubs to play more regularly against full time clubs, earning money from their travelling supporters? A bigger second tier, then?

Or simply corral the prize money the Old Firm don't seem to need, going by their colts proposal, over the next 5 years. And redistribute it lower down?

I think full time clubs maybe add something to their communities, too, in terms of the local employment they support.

Edited April 5, 2021 by theboke
And stupid.

[DiegoDiego]

Well Armenia beat Iceland last week so we should clearly stop funding youth coaches and indoor facilities and instead copy their model of a second tier comprised predominantly of colt teams.

[Crawford Bridge]

6 hours ago, theboke said:

Yes I am, thank you. I am also stupid, smelly, ugly and stupid.

The key point, though, is that loaning players to the Scottish lower leagues doesn't produce much in the way of international-class players. And neither do colts or B teams. 

The best players we have tend to break through as teenagers at their club, at whatever level, stay in that nurturing environment for a couple of seasons, then move on up. Clubs should be using them or releasing them, not turning them into loanee journeymen.

So I wonder if we shouldn't be looking at increasing the number of full time clubs, so that these youngsters can play and train day-to-day full time alongside senior pros, in first team rather than development squads.

How to increase the number of full time clubs?

A league structure that enables more part time clubs to play more regularly against full time clubs, earning money from their travelling supporters? A bigger second tier, then?

Or simply corral the prize money the Old Firm don't seem to need, going by their colts proposal, over the next 5 years. And redistribute it lower down?

I think full time clubs maybe add something to their communities, too, in terms of the local employment they support.