Ginaro Posted June 27, 2018 Share Posted June 27, 2018 1 hour ago, anonanist said: The justification for any challenge - legal or otherwise - is that both the SPFL document quoted above and page 22 of the Scottish Lowland Football League Constitution and Rules only state the criteria as 56 45 13 N. So, any club who can prove that they meet that definition, by referring to Ordnance Survey or World Atlas or any other reputable source, are entitled to be admitted to the league that they apply to (providing they meet the other necessary criteria). http://slfl.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Scottish-Lowland-Football-League-Rules-Version-8.pdf In the event of Club 42 losing the Pyramid Play-Off Match, it will be relegated to the SHFL League if its Registered Ground is located North of Degree of Latitude 56,4513N or to the SLFL if its Registered Ground is located South of Degree of Latitude 56,4513N and it shall thereafter comply with the rules and regulations of the relevant league. Those are the LL rules - you've added spaces into the latitude where none exist as it is a decimal number. Here's a handy map to help you visualise the HL/LL dividing line: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1k4xWEiA6DvPhdnfOqT835ybt52xQ4Grr&ll=56.40407684855002%2C-3.218008210546941&z=10 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shugs Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Premier League - 12 teams Championship - 10 teams League 1 (North) - 10 teams League 2 (South) - 10 teams *Last placed teams in League 1 North & South playoff against each other then against the team who won the Lowland/Highland League playoff. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DARREN38 Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 Scottish Premier League- 14 Teams Format: Top four play for European places including the Title. Middle 8 play for another Europa League place. And the bottom team relegated while the 13th plays 4th, 3rd and 2nd placed teams in the Championship. Championship- 14 Teams Format: 1st Automatically Promotion to Premier. While 2nd, 3rd and 4th placed teams play each other. with the winner facing the 13th from the premier League. Bottom Four Relegated to Sem- Pro First Division. Semi-Pro First Division: 12 or 14 teams Format: Top four promoted. With the bottom four relegated to North and South Amatuer Leagues First Amatuer League North Format Winner Promoted and teams 2nd to 10 th play for Second promotion spot. Bottom Two Relegated. First Amatuer League South Format: Same as North Second Amatuer League: Four Groups of 12 or 14 Teams. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted June 28, 2018 Share Posted June 28, 2018 (edited) On 19/06/2018 at 15:28, anonanist said: You are probably referring to East Stirlingshire, and regression to the mean. Dundee United are an order of magnitude larger than East Stirlingshire in terms of their support, and significantly more successful, although East Stirlingshire are also a venerable institution. Regression to the mean in this context would see Dundee United promoted, and take their place in the top six more often than not. Yes, in the late 50's Dundee United were competing at a similar level to East Stirling, Jacksgranda might remember, I'm younger but I did know they finished below East Stirling in the late 50's. Regression to the mean would only see them promoted if you ignored their 1st 37 years, even then it is only an average of 10th. Who knows where you'll be this time next season if you fail to get promoted again. Karma for Conway? Edited June 28, 2018 by ayrmad 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonanist Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 (edited) On 27/06/2018 at 10:58, FairWeatherFan said: There's no way a legal challenge would get off the ground on the basis of uncertainty over what method was used. The leagues created the boundary, they knew what was being done. The only time it has been an issue in a playoff so far was in year one with Montrose, who showed no confusion over the fact they would be relegated into the highland league. Also I'm pretty sure It's the Lowland league document that uses a comma instead of the decimal point when writing it out, not just spaces. On 27/06/2018 at 11:24, craigkillie said: You seem to be getting confused about a lot of things here. Both of my posts are correct and do not disagree with each other. The River Tay is not the boundary, and never has been the boundary. The boundary is a straight line which starts at the mouth of the Tay and follows an exact line of latitude across Scotland, whereas the river meanders north and south as it weaves its way across most of the country. For example, Scone is north of the River Tay, but is south of the Lowland League boundary line. As I mentioned in the post which you went to the effort of quoting, but didn't seem to go to the effort of understanding, the River Tay doesn't extend into the Western part of the country, and therefore wouldn't be useful for classifying places like Oban. You are also making a crucial error in your reading of the SPFL rules. The rules, as quoted in my previous post, list the boundary as "56,4513N", not "56 45 13N" as you keep suggesting. The lack of spacing is crucial here - it shows that the boundary is represented by decimal degrees (ie 56.4513N or 56,4513N depending on personal style), rather than being 56 degrees, 45 minutes, 13 seconds (56° 45' 13"). Using council regions would be an alternative way to do things, but it would cause problems with Perth and Kinross and Argyll and Bute in particular. For the likes of Jeanfield Swifts or Scone (or St Johnstone), it would obviously make sense to be in the Lowland League, but it's much less obvious for places like Pitlochry or Blairgowrie. Likewise, obviously Helensburgh and Dunoon are in the Lowland League are, but what about Tobermory? You might then end up having to draw a line through those regions anyway. On 27/06/2018 at 12:33, Ginaro said: In the event of Club 42 losing the Pyramid Play-Off Match, it will be relegated to the SHFL League if its Registered Ground is located North of Degree of Latitude 56,4513N or to the SLFL if its Registered Ground is located South of Degree of Latitude 56,4513N and it shall thereafter comply with the rules and regulations of the relevant league. Those are the LL rules - you've added spaces into the latitude where none exist as it is a decimal number. Here's a handy map to help you visualise the HL/LL dividing line: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1k4xWEiA6DvPhdnfOqT835ybt52xQ4Grr&ll=56.40407684855002%2C-3.218008210546941&z=10 Thank you all, for my education; I do apologise for my mistakes. Having searched World Atlas for the latitude of the 'Tay Road Bridge, Scotland', it returns a result of 560 27' N; converting this using the Australian Antarctic Data Centre website, it gives rise to a latitude of 56.450000 - which, I agree, is (all-but) 'as advertised' in both the SPFL and the Lowland League criteria. My ignorance: my error. Brechin, Scotland returns a result of 560 44' N, which converts to a decimal 56.73333 - placing it outwith the Lowland League's remit. But I may be wrong (again)... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_degrees https://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/findlatlong.htm https://data.aad.gov.au/aadc/calc/dms_decimal.cfm Good to have these things out in the open, even if it does mean a red face for me! 13 hours ago, ayrmad said: Yes, in the late 50's Dundee United were competing at a similar level to East Stirling, Jacksgranda might remember, I'm younger but I did know they finished below East Stirling in the late 50's. Regression to the mean would only see them promoted if you ignored their 1st 37 years, even then it is only an average of 10th. Who knows where you'll be this time next season if you fail to get promoted again. Karma for Conway? For the record, i'm not a United supporter; otherwise, I refer you to my previous answer from which I do not resile. Edited June 29, 2018 by anonanist 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted June 29, 2018 Share Posted June 29, 2018 5 minutes ago, anonanist said: Thank you all, for my education; I do apologise for my mistakes. Having searched World Atlas for the latitude of the 'Tay Road Bridge, Scotland', it returns a result of 560 27' N; converting this using the Australian Antarctic Data Centre website, it gives rise to a latitude of 56.450000 - which, I agree, is (all-but) 'as advertised' in both the SPFL and the Lowland League criteria. My ignorance: my error. Brechin, Scotland returns a result of 560 44' N, which converts to a decimal 56.73333 - placing it outwith the Lowland League's remit. But I may be wrong (again)... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_degrees https://www.worldatlas.com/aatlas/findlatlong.htm https://data.aad.gov.au/aadc/calc/dms_decimal.cfm Good to have these things out in the open, even if it does mean a red face for me! For the record, i'm not a United supporter; otherwise, I refer you to my previous answer from which I do not resile. In the past year gossip went around here that the boundary had been quietly changed and moved north. The fact the two approaches result in a seemingly planned boundary 'mouth of the tay' or 'mouth of the esk' gave it some traction. But it was just a misunderstanding and its the same its always been. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonanist Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 (edited) Yep, those two possibilities are an odd coincidence so I can see why that one gained credence. The outstanding issue appears to be that the notation used in the SPFL, Highland League and Lowland League documents (downloaded today, attached) state the criteria using a comma after the '56' - which is not an accepted format for geographic coordinates according to these sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographic_coordinate_conversion https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Geographic_coordinate_conversion In which case the use of 56,4513N (SPFL, p.226; Highland League, p.23; Lowland League, p.22) appears to be: - at best: ambiguous, since it possibly could refer to any of the accepted formats for latitude (including DMS - degrees, minutes, seconds - which would put the cut-off point at the River North Esk); - at worst: meaningless, since 56,4513N in this format, that is not accepted, would literally mean nothing at all. This being the case, their 'criteria' would seem to be entirely subjective, open to interpretation, and as such would be open to challenge. If football and sporting appeals processes were exhausted - for example, by a clutch of clubs who were denied entry to the 'lowland' area on the basis of such seemingly ambiguous/meaningless criteria - I wonder if a civil action could indeed be brought, on the principle of something like 'unreasonable exclusion/bias' leading, in practice, to financial detriment through denial or loss of earnings. Just speculating, really. I'm also aware that many countries do use the comma in place of a decimal point for mathematical notation but the UK don't seem to do this, and I can't seem to find any reference to that comma being used in any geographical notation at all. But I could well be wrong. https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/778613/what-does-the-comma-notation-mean https://www.esri.com/arcgis-blog/products/arcgis-solutions/defense/converting-and-displaying-coordinates-in-arcgis-10/ 067_324__rulesofthespflasat19_january_2018_1518083042.pdf Scottish-Lowland-Football-League-Rules-Version-8.pdf SHFL Constitution & Rules 2018-19.pdf Edited July 2, 2018 by anonanist 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclizine Posted July 2, 2018 Share Posted July 2, 2018 I really don't think there's any chance of a legal challenge here. All the affected clubs are aware of the Tay Bridge boundary. The slight inconsistencies in the notation don't change this - it's always been the Tay Bridge. The North Esk rumour started on here and was only ever a rumour! The discussion was done to death months ago (you'll easily find it on the search function) and @FairWeatherFan posted a copy of the confirmation message he got from the Lowland secretary. I'd forget this argument now, it's making you look a bit obsessed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonanist Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 Thank you for the advice. Can you confirm where it is officially stated that the Tay Bridge is the boundary? The notation used is consistent, but it simply does not appear to bear any relation to any accepted notation for stating latitude; this would seem to make it either completely ambiguous or utterly meaningless - thus open to challenge. If you're setting out criteria, then the onus is on you to be absolutely clear and accurate about it, or you can expect to have it challenged at some stage. (You'll note that I've posted a variety of comments on different aspects of league restructuring, including on how to make a 16-team top league viable, the benefits of an 18-team top league, why further regionalisation may benefit smaller clubs currently playing at a national level, and on integration of/fewer clubs; therefore, i'm not so much obsessed as willing to state/discuss ideas on a variety of aspects. You'll also note that my posts on the highland/lowland boundary have been quoted, and so have been part of a conversation.) However, i'll make this the last one... ...unless someone can rebut my previous post, which showed that 56,4513N appears to be a fictional criterion, since it bears no relation to any accepted geographical notation for latitude. The implication of this seems to be that there is not, and has never been, a dividing line between 'highland' and 'lowland' areas - i.e. any club is entitled to play anywhere since the criteria is, functionally, non-existent. In terms of any potential challenge, legal or otherwise... ...if the geographical criteria is meaningless in this way - which it appears to be - then it is unreasonable for a league body to accept some clubs yet exclude others on the basis of their geographical location. On the other hand, if we accept that 56,4513N does at least refer to latitude in some vague, non-professional way - and so is ambiguous and open to interpretation - then it is unreasonable for a league body to exclude a club that meets any of the professionally accepted interpretations of that criterion (e.g. DMS), whilst this same league body is simultaneously including other clubs based of one of the other accepted interpretations - seemingly, a double standard. Either way demonstrates bias/unreasonable exclusion on the part of the league bodies. As a result of being unreasonably excluded in this way, clubs would seem to be denied the opportunity to compete in an environment in which their income would be enhanced - through, for example, missing out on their fair share of a larger sum of commercial revenues from playing in a more lucrative league. Similarly, unreasonable exclusion could lead to the financial detriment of a club being forced to participate in a league that requires them to spend larger sums of money on travel costs - again, a monetary loss arising from a decision by the league bodies to exclude them based on either ambiguous or entirely fictitious criteria. To me anyway, it appears like the league bodies have made a boob with their 'criteria' and that it does, indeed, appear to be wide open to challenge. I'm just reasoning to/from the evidence (deduction/induction); if i'm wrong, you know that i'll say so - but show me how. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairWeatherFan Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 There's a 'contact us' page on the Lowland league website. They were rather prompt when I contacted them previously, maybe you'd like to point this out to them & they can change the comma to a decimal point. The updated constitution must be out soon anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclizine Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 On 26/03/2018 at 14:46, FairWeatherFan said: The reply I got was the following: " The boundary between SHFL and SLFL has been set as the midway point on the Tay Bridge " from David Baxter the secretary of the Lowland League. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclizine Posted July 3, 2018 Share Posted July 3, 2018 A club would have to prove on the balance of probability that they had been unfairly discriminated against. I think it'd be pretty difficult to do that. The 'ambiguous' latitude isn't really ambiguous anyway, clubs have always known the boundary and the typo could be corrected easily, it's similar to the slip rule in court. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonanist Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 On 03/07/2018 at 12:46, FairWeatherFan said: There's a 'contact us' page on the Lowland league website. They were rather prompt when I contacted them previously, maybe you'd like to point this out to them & they can change the comma to a decimal point. The updated constitution must be out soon anyway. Could do, but i'd prefer to remain anonymous (as I am a coward) and it doesn't look like a typo - see below... On 03/07/2018 at 15:22, Cyclizine said: A club would have to prove on the balance of probability that they had been unfairly discriminated against. I think it'd be pretty difficult to do that. The 'ambiguous' latitude isn't really ambiguous anyway, clubs have always known the boundary and the typo could be corrected easily, it's similar to the slip rule in court. ...I'm not sure that the 'slip rule' would apply since a specific phrase or criteria repeated in 3 different documents by 3 different league bodies looks more like deliberate intention than simply a typographical mistake. However, set against this I suppose is the 'Tay Bridge' evidence that you (both) have provided. But, again, that was (presumably) private correspondence; meanwhile, the published criteria from all 3 league bodies looks to be either ambiguous or meaningless. I think I covered the potential proof of unfair discrimination in my previous post, but maybe not. Will try to leave this one alone now! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclizine Posted July 6, 2018 Share Posted July 6, 2018 1 hour ago, anonanist said: Will try to leave this one alone now! Sounds like a plan to me, mate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdTheDuck Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 I see the Danish Superliga is cutting back from 14 to 12 teams in a couple of years. Whether that means they're going back to a single season X3 33 game season or keeping their 'split 6-6 as opposed to the 6-4-4 thingy they currently have I don't know. https://www.sportbusiness.com/sport-news/danish-club-football-system-set-major-reform 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DA Baracus Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 I'd love to see this legal challenge in court. First question from the defence: "Please detail when and how you sought clarification of the boundary." Prosecution: "....." Judge: "Get out." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DARREN38 Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 (edited) Scottish Premier League of 18 Clubs. 34 Games and then The top 16 clubs form four groups of four with the winners and runners-up qualifying for the quarter finals and so forth. The bottom team is relegated to the championship Scottish Championship also of 18 Clubs. Using the same as the Scottish Premier League. The final two teams. One is the the champion and promoted automatically. With the runner up then playing the 17th club in the Premier League for a place in the top league Bottom team is relegated to District/Regional Leagues Semi-pro/Amateur Regional Leagues could contain fourteen teams each with play offs between them to decide who replaces the bottom team of the championship. This format would add interest in all leagues and league to strong Premier and Championship Edited July 30, 2018 by DARREN38 -5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyclizine Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 8 hours ago, DARREN38 said: Scottish Premier League of 18 Clubs. The top 16 clubs form four groups of four with the winners and runners-up qualifying for the quarter finals and so forth. The bottom team is relegated to the championship Scottish Championship also of 18 Clubs. Using the same as the Scottish Premier League. The final two teams. One is the the champion and promoted automatically. With the runner up then playing the 17th club in the Premier League for a place in the top league Bottom team is relegated to District/Regional Leagues Semi-pro/Amateur Regional Leagues could contain fourteen teams each with play offs between them to decide who replaces the bottom team of the championship. This format would add interest in all leagues and league to strong Premier and Championship I'm out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScarf Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Leagues that half play offs after the league are fucking shite. The team who finishes top of the league is the best team, therefore the champions. Leave the knockout stuff for the cups where it belongs. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merkie84 Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 (edited) Regardless of what format we all think is best, can we please get calling the division below the top flight the "Championship" into the sea. Edited August 15, 2018 by Merkie84 Spelling 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.