League reconstruction: Let's hear your view

[effeffsee_the2nd]

You say expelled like they would be banished to playing non league football forever more which wouldn't be the case with a pyramid. Also the overwhelming majority on these boards are scunered with small leagues double round robin format , so with bigger leagues all round you have to decide how many tiers of national is too many? 32 does seem pretty small but then 48 seems a lot giving that many of the potential 3rd tier clubs would have very small away supports. As it stands many bigger and better run non league and junior teams don't want to burst a gut going thro all the promotions just to end up in league 2.

If it is true that there are better teams with better players playing outside the spfl than those in league 2 then that is absolutely fucking mental in this day and age. You build strength in you're league from the bottom up so it makes sense to have the best players playing at as high a level as possible. As had been said before we have one of the most fragmented and disorganised footballing systems in Europe. For a footballing nation of 5 million our national side is fucking gash. Something is far wrong when countries like Slovakia and Slovenia are better sides than us.

suppose the point I'm making is that whatever happens there will have to be a couple of losers in the process, but we can't halt progress because the likes of Montrose and east Stirlingshire don't want to lose their national status "because theyv always been there"

[BFTD]

You say expelled like they would be banished to playing non league football forever more which wouldn't be the case with a pyramid. Also the overwhelming majority on these boards are scunered with small leagues double round robin format , so with bigger leagues all round you have to decide how many tiers of national is too many? 32 does seem pretty small but then 48 seems a lot giving that many of the potential 3rd tier clubs would have very small away supports. As it stands many bigger and better run non league and junior teams don't want to burst a gut going thro all the promotions just to end up in league 2.

If it is true that there are better teams with better players playing outside the spfl than those in league 2 then that is absolutely fucking mental in this day and age. You build strength in you're league from the bottom up so it makes sense to have the best players playing at as high a level as possible. As had been said before we have one of the most fragmented and disorganised footballing systems in Europe. For a footballing nation of 5 million our national side is fucking gash. Something is far wrong when countries like Slovakia and Slovenia are better sides than us.

suppose the point I'm making is that whatever happens there will have to be a couple of losers in the process, but we can't halt progress because the likes of Montrose and east Stirlingshire don't want to lose their national status "because theyv always been there"

No, not expelled forever more; they'd have the same chances of return as the Highland/Lowland sides do, which is the same chance as they have in the current pyramid. So...no difference, other than ten teams seemingly being expelled for the sake of it (or a possible extra fifteen grand to do something with).

When you say that the better-run non-SPFL teams don't want to bust a gut to work their way past the smaller SPFL teams, you're coming very close to saying they should be parachuted in, as they'd be working their way past the other teams either way. I don't recall that being dreadfully popular when it was done recently, or when it was suggested for other clubs in the recent past. I also don't recall anyone other than possibly Brora complaining about having to work through the leagues like everyone else anyway, but I could be wrong. I don't suppose anyone at any level would turn down a wee hand up the pyramid if it was offered.

Are the players outside the SPFL better than in League Two, other than at clubs being unsustainably bankrolled by sugar daddies? Your point about the national side seems very 'something must be done; this is something, therefore we must do it', as I can't see how changing the designation of the SPFL's worst ten clubs and upwardly redistributing a wee bit of money from them would make any difference to that whatsoever.

I think that's it. TL;DR

[SpoonTon]

For a moment, I thought you were doing a Brookes Mileson and saying that Brora should be parachuted directly into League One My bad.

They'd still be having to work their way past these teams anyway, so I really don't see what kind of difference that makes. The same 'prize' is still there at the end of it. f**k Brora, as they'll end up going down the same route as Gretna eventually anyway, but their reticence towards promotion didn't seem to be coming from having to play Montrose and East Stirlingshire for a season, but was more to do with the board enjoying their time as a big fish in a small pond. Possibly taking a year less to travel towards being walloped by Raith, Morton, and St Mirren doesn't seem like any kind of incentive to a club that thinks along those lines.

Have any other Highland/Lowland sides expressed displeasure at the thought of rubbing shoulders with Clyde on their way to potential glory? Well, more so than everyone else

My point was that the Junior teams would see this in the same way as Brora. I'm sure Pollok or Linlithgow would love a shot at Clyde or Stirling, but I'm not so sure they would fancy the trip to Stranraer one week and Elgin the next (unless the league had sufficient pull - more teams, more money, a shot at some bigger teams, etc).

I think if we were to go down that route, it would be better to have a more attractive Lowland League below a more attractive bottom national tier. You'd need a Lowland League which was attractive enough to pull the East and West Juniors out of their top league, and the incentive at the end of it would need to be good enough to encourage growth and development of clubs.

In this scenario I'd put forward the idea of having 2 parts of a national conference: a Lowland League with 2.5 promotion places and a Highland League with 0.5 promotion places.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

No, not expelled forever more; they'd have the same chances of return as the Highland/Lowland sides do, which is the same chance as they have in the current pyramid. So...no difference, other than ten teams seemingly being expelled for the sake of it (or a possible extra fifteen grand to do something with).

When you say that the better-run non-SPFL teams don't want to bust a gut to work their way past the smaller SPFL teams, you're coming very close to saying they should be parachuted in, as they'd be working their way past the other teams either way. I don't recall that being dreadfully popular when it was done recently, or when it was suggested for other clubs in the recent past. I also don't recall anyone other than possibly Brora complaining about having to work through the leagues like everyone else anyway, but I could be wrong. I don't suppose anyone at any level would turn down a wee hand up the pyramid if it was offered.

Are the players outside the SPFL better than in League Two, other than at clubs being unsustainably bankrolled by sugar daddies? Your point about the national side seems very 'something must be done; this is something, therefore we must do it', as I can't see how changing the designation of the SPFL's worst ten clubs and upwardly redistributing a wee bit of money from them would make any difference to that whatsoever.

I think that's it. TL;DR

well not exactly, certainly not direct parachuting anyway. It seems we have an appetite for bigger leagues all rounds, we also have an appetite in principle for a pyramid althou not with continuation of more and more levels of 10 or 12 teams, Il say again if were going to have bigger division then we'd get back to the same stumbling block when it comes to how many national leagues. Is 3 too many or is 2 not enough? Would the non league junior teams be interested in spfl 3 with 16 teams? Who knows. TBH tho you and DA barracus ' attitude seems to be "naw we were here first".

I get your point about corruption in the juniors , if what you hear sometimes is true then all you'd need is the weather and you'd be in Italy. But that can be dealt with better under a pyramid. The most corrupt of them all wont sign up and they will lose in the longer term. Perhaps not everything in the spfl is kosher but you don't see clubs social clubs burning down the week before the books get audited.

[BFTD]

My point was that the Junior teams would see this in the same way as Brora. I'm sure Pollok or Linlithgow would love a shot at Clyde or Stirling, but I'm not so sure they would fancy the trip to Stranraer one week and Elgin the next (unless the league had sufficient pull - more teams, more money, a shot at some bigger teams, etc).

I think if we were to go down that route, it would be better to have a more attractive Lowland League below a more attractive bottom national tier. You'd need a Lowland League which was attractive enough to pull the East and West Juniors out of their top league, and the incentive at the end of it would need to be good enough to encourage growth and development of clubs.

In this scenario I'd put forward the idea of having 2 parts of a national conference: a Lowland League with 2.5 promotion places and a Highland League with 0.5 promotion places.

I'm not sure why there's a desperation is to get the Juniors into the SPFL structure anyway TBH. Fine if they want to be, but it doesn't seem like either side is missing out on a lot. I'd have thought that the idea of leaving their own structure would be even less appealing if their prospects of ever becoming an SPFL member club were reduced by about 25%.

Regionalisation is it's own issue, and it's easily answered: are fans of current League One/Two clubs looking forward to a day when they'll only be playing team from their own area? If the answer's yes, then get it done. Can't say I'm convinced that would be the answer, going by how many people seem to enjoy away trips, but that's what it should come down to.

Why does the Lowland League get 2/3 promotion places, with only 0 or 1 going to the Highland League, BTW? Just to fast-track the Juniors into the SPFL?

[BFTD]

TBH tho you and DA barracus ' attitude seems to be "naw we were here first".

Can't speak for the DA, but naw, it's really not! Don't know where you're getting that from.

I get your point about corruption in the juniors , if what you hear sometimes is true then all you'd need is the weather and you'd be in Italy. But that can be dealt with better under a pyramid. The most corrupt of them all wont sign up and they will lose in the longer term. Perhaps not everything in the spfl is kosher but you don't see clubs social clubs burning down the week before the books get audited.

I never said anything about corruption in the Juniors

Did you mean to reply to someone else's post?

[effeffsee_the2nd]

Your point about sugar daddy bankrolling teams with nae support

[BFTD]

Your point about sugar daddy bankrolling teams with nae support

I dont think that counts as corruption, surely. I don't think anyone should be stopped from spooging their money away on a football club if they want, other than that some assurances should be in place to ensure the club is able to cover its debts and go back to normal once the backer has died, or become bored with their plaything. Just because a club has few supporters doesn't mean someone should be allowed to use it like a toy, then break it when they've had their fun. But then, that would be the job of the authorities to sort out and, well...

Are there really Brora-style sugar daddies in the Juniors?

[SpoonTon]

I'm not sure why there's a desperation is to get the Juniors into the SPFL structure anyway TBH. Fine if they want to be, but it doesn't seem like either side is missing out on a lot. I'd have thought that the idea of leaving their own structure would be even less appealing if their prospects of ever becoming an SPFL member club were reduced by about 25%.

Regionalisation is it's own issue, and it's easily answered: are fans of current League One/Two clubs looking forward to a day when they'll only be playing team from their own area? If the answer's yes, then get it done. Can't say I'm convinced that would be the answer, going by how many people seem to enjoy away trips, but that's what it should come down to.

Why does the Lowland League get 2/3 promotion places, with only 0 or 1 going to the Highland League, BTW? Just to fast-track the Juniors into the SPFL?

Not if they have no interest in that 25%.

The Lowland League represents the vast majority of population, even if its less than half of the landmass. If it doesn't become significantly stronger and deeper than the Highland League then it will have been a resounding failure. But I agree that there are significant limits to the will for regionalisation from current national level clubs, so there's no need to do anything apart from taking away the longest journeys. 2.5 to 0.5 would maintain a level of fairness from a population point of view without the need for small regions.

[HTG]

Your point about sugar daddy bankrolling teams with nae support

Like Ross County do you mean? Having just been there it's a fantastic wee set up and what they have achieved is marvellous. But it wasn't achieved on good intentions and elbow grease alone. They've got people putting good money in there but they're not corrupt.

Nothing will happen without baby steps first. Scottish football has too much vested self interest to even take baby steps.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

Like Ross County do you mean? Having just been there it's a fantastic wee set up and what they have achieved is marvellous. But it wasn't achieved on good intentions and elbow grease alone. They've got people putting good money in there but they're not corrupt.

Nothing will happen without baby steps first. Scottish football has too much vested self interest to even take baby steps.

thats what ive been saying all along, someones got to lose out of it, nothing against the clubs but what exaclty do we owe bottom half league 2 teams? we've seen some clubs finish bottom with embarassing points totals and nothing happens. theres no incentive for them to get off the arse and improve.

[HTG]

thats what ive been saying all along, someones got to lose out of it, nothing against the clubs but what exaclty do we owe bottom half league 2 teams? we've seen some clubs finish bottom with embarassing points totals and nothing happens. theres no incentive for them to get off the arse and improve.

Well that's one element and I don't disagree with you. There very much needs to be greater reward for effort and consequence for failure.

But consolidating into the top few is unlikely to make a huge impact either. We all know that Celtic and the club formerly known as Rangers have had access to massive amounts of wealth by comparison to the rest. But they've done f**k all with it in relative terms. The addition of an extra pittance across say another 15 or 16 clubs won't matter - they'll just pay a half decent player more money.

In fact, the more money is constrained within the hands of the few, the worse things get one could argue. Look at the EPL. What is the percentage of English players plying their trade at the sharp end of that league (and even Leicester might not skew the numbers)?

Money isn't really at the heart of this. It's important in the sense of ensuring we have clubs that can be sustained but you won't make Scotland any better at international level. We'll just see more hired assassins being catapulted into the game.

Developing young Scottish talent and league structures are not terribly strong bedfellows in my view. But to go back to Ross County, I really like the infrastructure they're putting together and their community engagement seems excellent. It would be as easy for a sugar daddy to stick all of his cash into players. These lads in Dingwall get a good wage to go and play there but that's not the whole story and fair play to them. I could say the same about the set up at Forfar - excellent and feels community focused. I wouldn't want them cut adrift on a point of principle over numbers.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

I know it sounds far fetched about improving the top level but as i say build stregnth from the bottom up. a promoted team should bring more to the division if theyv had to fight hard against better teams to win promotion rather than skooshing it against dross.

now can we please stop all talk of "banished expelled or whatever been over this enough times bigger leagues = fewer leagues, you cant put 16 or 18 into 42 and get a whole number, you have to make the cut off somewhere, your club will still be playing at the same level of the pyramid, it will just look a bit different

lastly for all the lowland league will in time end up far stronger than the highland 2.5 - 0.5 promotion places is going to leave the highlands isolated and they might well just tell the sfa to ram it. its better to have 3 promotion spots, both champions go up , 2nd place play each other and the winner goes up. if the lowlands raly are that much stronger then they should win the play off most years

[10menwent2mow]

Not if they have no interest in that 25%.

The Lowland League represents the vast majority of population, even if its less than half of the landmass. If it doesn't become significantly stronger and deeper than the Highland League then it will have been a resounding failure. But I agree that there are significant limits to the will for regionalisation from current national level clubs, so there's no need to do anything apart from taking away the longest journeys. 2.5 to 0.5 would maintain a level of fairness from a population point of view without the need for small regions.

As has been said 2.5 - 0.5 in favour of the LL which has been on the go for what 3 or 4 years is ridiculous. Elgin are the only former HL side to be admitted to the league that have struggled, there are 2 (ok ICT were created) in the Prem, Peterhead at the top end of Lge 1 and even Elgin might get promoted this season. Half the teams in the Premiership are from Perth or North.

Just because the central belt contains most of the population, we should structure our football around that, utter nonsense in my book. If football is not going to be meritocratic and based on something as loose as population then the whole thing is a bogey.

Edited February 23, 2016 by 10menwent2mow

[itzdrk]

12 team league. No promotion or relegation, kick all they wee Diddy teams out IMO.

Sent from my iPhone using Pie & Bovril

[Burnie_man]

Just because the central belt contains most of the population, we should structure our football around that, utter nonsense in my book. If football is not going to be meritocratic and based on something as loose as population then the whole thing is a bogey.

Let's not base it on population, let's base it on clubs. there are three times as many clubs in the LL catchment area than the HL, there should be more opportunity in the LL area than the HL area.

The easy answer is a three region solution mirroring the Juniors, HL, LL (East), LL (West).

[SpoonTon]

As has been said 2.5 - 0.5 in favour of the LL which has been on the go for what 3 or 4 years is ridiculous. Elgin are the only former HL side to be admitted to the league that have struggled, there are 2 (ok ICT were created) in the Prem, Peterhead at the top end of Lge 1 and even Elgin might get promoted this season. Half the teams in the Premiership are from Perth or North.

Just because the central belt contains most of the population, we should structure our football around that, utter nonsense in my book. If football is not going to be meritocratic and based on something as loose as population then the whole thing is a bogey.

The ratio also works if you're looking at current SPFL clubs. 33 to 9 of you include the Angus clubs as Highland, 37 to 5 if you don't. And my numbers were based on a model which would involve all Junior teams in the set-up. The alternative in that scenario would be to make the Highland region one of three or four sperate regions at that level.

Just to be absolutely clear, in no way was I advocating 2.5 places to the current Lowland League set-up - that would be silly, and not what i said. And population is simply an indicator, as pointed out I also could have said number of clubs.

[Dunning1874]

Okay, fans of current Lowland League clubs. What's your view on the LL being split into East and West if enough clubs outside the pyramid are willing to join to give both leagues a viable number of clubs?

Do you feel that's worth doing to ensure Junior clubs come on board and we have a fully integrated pyramid, or is it a case of tough shit, they had their chance when it started and if/when more clubs join they'll just have to live with the regional set-up being two leagues rather than three immediately below the national level?

[SandwedgeSammy]

I would think the Lowland League clubs would rightly object to the formation of an East and West league split if there were clubs joining it who did not have a licence. To form two workable leagues you would need 32 licensed clubs. There are currently 22 across the Lowland catchment area with a few clubs looking to gain a licence soon. I think 32 is attainable with some form of encouragement. This is where I think the ‘commitment to the pyramid’ requirement is confusing. It was rushed in when Linlithgow Rose and Banks O’Dee were pursuing a licence so it does, on the face of it, look like a clause to discourage more Junior involvement. I would think if an East and West league split was desired then clarification would be helpful. I think if the SFA stated that clubs in the Juniors could obtain a licence, play in the Scottish Cup but remain in the Juniors then you might get more takers. The ‘commitment to the pyramid’ would be that as soon as there are 32 licensed clubs across the Lowland area then they all have to join it or they lose the licence.

This is all on the assumption that the SFA/SPFL/SLFL would countenance another league. However, it does seem logical to me based on the number of teams across the Lowland area compared to the Highland area to have a North/East/West split at tier 5.

[Pride_of_the_Clyde]

I agree, Sammy, that the non-SPFL tiers should be organised on a West, East & North basis. And I don't think you'd find many around these parts who'd disagree.

However, the realisticness of it aside, I want it on the basis that it is tier four. We only need three SPFL divisions, regardless of how you want to number them. The reason I say that, other than to make SPFL membership more appealing to the non-s, is that you'd then need a bigger league to promote teams to if it's three regions below. And how do you do that fairly if not a straight one up from each region?

The main problem to this, more so than the cop the juniors' administrators get for their reluctance to join senior teams, is that SPFL administrators could not care less about the setup below the Championship, never mind below League 2.