HibeeJibee Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Still perpetuating this nonsense about summer football? There is no reason, with a bare minimum of intelligent scheduling, that league games would have to be played in December or January, or February/November for that matter. As things stand a 2016 'summer' season here would run January 16th (first LC group games) to December 17th (Scottish Cup Final). That's using every date allowable, including midweeks of EL & Supercup finals, and weekend of CL final. Make it January 9th if you didn't want to play 2 league rounds during the knockout stages of Euro 2016 (i.e. QF & Final weekends). Unless you're suggesting regular Friday-Monday cards, or playing during international breaks - neither of which are realistic propositions. Even some 'trimming' won't get you out of January & December. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyrshireTon Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 So since it was two big leagues, we've had: 10-14-14 (the 14s played each other 3 times and no one batted an eyelid) 12-12-14 (to save Motherwell) 10-14-14 (Motherwell saved, and the big clubs didn't like playing more games) 10-10-10-10 (an almighty clusterfuck to create it, with 5 down & 1 up between the two 14s) 12-10-10-10 (with top flight split and later, bonus playoffs all over the place) And now we're looking at 14-14-14 with some insane top flight splitting and no mention of what the other two leagues will do. Get these c***s hunted out of our game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 You've missed that we went from 10-14-14 to 12-12-14 twice, before changing to 10-10-10-10 (at which time 3pts for a win started)... First time it changed was part of a deliberate process: 2-up-2-down out of 10 clubs was seen as too cut-throat, so it was agreed to move to 12 clubs for 2 seasons then reduce back to 10 clubs but with only 1-up-1-down. Second time it was a "permanent" decision to have 2 more clubs in the top level and restore 2-up-2-down. However, 44-games proved excessive, moreso when CL began/etc. Also, in the first year of 10-14-14 the 14s only played each other twice - and there was a disastrous Spring Cup to make up the program. Playing thrice was seen as a lesser evil. Of course 10-10-10-10 involved a 9th v 2nd playoff between the Premier and First divisions, until SPL was formed, acting as a comprise between 2-up-2-down and 1-up-1-down. Finally the move to 12-10-10-10 was necessitated by SPL founder clubs needing to win the vote to let them break away without given X years notice: they had to buy-off some tier 2 clubs by agreeing to expand the top level back to 12 clubs after 2yrs. Hence the 'split' to avoid having to go back to an unmanageable 44 games, although it has proven effective in giving mid-table clubs something to play for and generating lots of big matches in the run-in. System which has operated since 2000 is the second or third most durable in our history - currently in its 16th season. It's surpassed only by 18-20 (1955-1975: 20 seasons), and 20-20/18 (1922-1939: 17) if you only look at its top tier and discount the short-lived Division 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miguel Sanchez Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 There hasn't been a meaningful backlog - i.e. delays / congestion - since 2007-08?But the rain last weekend and the League Cup restructuring in the subsequent week is proof that Scotland should embrace summer football, because nobody wants to go to the football in this weather - if it's even on! - when they can go when it's sunny. Plus, when games are postponed it creates all these problems later on in the year. Look at Fir Park. It's a sandpit! There you go, you've just read every Daily Record article about league reconstruction over the past decade. Presumably they think if it's repeated often enough it'll all become true, oblivious to any tangible returns which support literally anything they have to say on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Btw, having mentioned the infamous 'Spring Cup', who could forget such successes as... ... and... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 The idea of playing Cup Finals in August genuinely makes me feel sick and uneasy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 How's it so different from playing one in May? Think people need to realise that times change and games get called off much more easily now than they used to and fans are not quite so eager to watch games when the weather is at its worst as they used to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 How's it so different from playing one in May? Think people need to realise that times change and games get called off much more easily now than they used to and fans are not quite so eager to watch games when the weather is at its worst as they used to be. It just feels unnatural to me. The rest of your post is mindless drivel tbf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenrothes 1884 saint Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 It just feels unnatural to me. The rest of your post is mindless drivel tbf ------------------- No it's not,we've had a game off because of a car park,games are getting cancelled for fan safety,either travelling or because of structural damage,these reasons didnt exist 20 years ago.We have a nanny state probably started to protect folk who get "genuinely uneasy and sick" at cup final date changes,FYI the league cup final was always before christmas years ago,but we accepted change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted December 10, 2015 Author Share Posted December 10, 2015 Sure whatever on the mindless drivel thing. The Drybrough Cup was a glorified preseason tournament, so really isn't relevant anyway. The League Cup sections worked quite well until league reconstruction ended the need to generate some extra fixtures. I don't see why it would be brought back unless reconstruction to a format with fewer league fixtures is imminent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crilly Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Plus, when games are postponed it creates all these problems later on in the year. Look at Fir Park. It's a sandpit! Really? When did you last visit Fir Park - presumably not this season. There are far worse pitches than Fir Park at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomGuy. Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 ------------------- No it's not,we've had a game off because of a car park,games are getting cancelled for fan safety,either travelling or because of structural damage,these reasons didnt exist 20 years ago.We have a nanny state probably started to protect folk who get "genuinely uneasy and sick" at cup final date changes,FYI the league cup final was always before christmas years ago,but we accepted change I was on about "mindless drivel" as it seemed to be suggested that we should switch to Summer football as a couple of games get cancelled every season, regardless of the negative impact of the switch. FWIW I've been retching for the past day at the thought of starting a season in January, might go to the doctors soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunning1874 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Still perpetuating this nonsense about summer football? There is no reason, with a bare minimum of intelligent scheduling, that league games would have to be played in December or January, or February/November for that matter. You're saying it would only take the bare minimum of intelligent scheduling to fit the full season into March - October, and it's nonsense to suggest otherwise. Please show your working. The full UEFA calendar is available, show us where we fit all the league and cup dates in if we have a summer season. Anyway, I've always believed that if you were creating a league system from scratch, ignoring what we have now and how clubs would respond, the ideal size of league would be 16 teams playing each other once at home, once away for a total of 30 games, with the bottom three automatically relegated. I think that's a good number of games and a good size of league, keeping the number of meaningless games as low as realistically possible. Unfortunately, we don't have the opportunity to create a system from scratch and disregard what's currently in place. Clubs aren't going to accept going from 18/19 home league games to 15, even accounting for being able to play the League Cup at weekends rather than midweek if we had such a league system. You could mitigate that with a split after the 30, but really there's no balanced way of splitting a 16 team league: if you split 8-8 and play once teams have an uneven number of home & away games, split 8-8 and play twice you've got too many games, while it's impossible to split one league into three groups without either having a completely pointless group or being absolutely batshit mental like Belgium. Splits with a 14 team league are even worse, as proved by the abject nonsense being introduced in Denmark. Far more pertinently, we don't have enough clubs big enough to have a 16 team top flight. It wouldn't be a problem for the top flight itself: the 12 currently there are obviously all big enough, while almost everyone in the Championship has the support base and infrastructure to be competitive in a 16 team top division. The problem is that you'd have a massive gap between the first and second tiers, which would make relegation a massive financial hit for anyone dropping from the top flight. If you're going from a league where you regularly have travelling supports of over 1000 and far bigger sponsorship revenue to one where no one brings a travelling support greater than 500 and the prize money, sponsorship revenue etc is all far smaller, you're in trouble. Again, this problem is going to be worse if you have an 18 or 20 team top flight to resolve the number of games problem of a 16 team top flight. That could possibly be mitigated by a ten team second tier rather than another 16 but even then it would still be a problem, or all clubs in the top flight agreeing on a far more equitable distribution of prize money to the second tier through realising this would be best for them as a safety net, but that isn't likely. All things considered, while I would like a 16 team top division I'm pragmatic about it and can accept that with all those potential problems, what we have now is probably as good as we can get unless there's a resolution to that second tier problem. Yes, playing each other four times can get stale, but it's better than just having a ten team league and the split we have is at least simple, with an even number of games for each team and no overly convoluted Belgian nonsense. While I would fully support a change if it was demonstrated how it would create more excitement or higher standards, changing from 12 to 14 with a more complicated split would just strike me as change for change's sake with no thought put into how it would actually improve anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenrothes 1884 saint Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 I was on about "mindless drivel" as it seemed to be suggested that we should switch to Summer football as a couple of games get cancelled every season, regardless of the negative impact of the switch. FWIW I've been retching for the past day at the thought of starting a season in January, might go to the doctors soon. ---------------- I can recommend 101 's psychiatrist,did a decent job for him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m4rko1981 Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 They should pick three setups and rotate them season on season, so each season is a different challenge. 10-12-18 [1 down and 3 up], going to 12-12-16 [2 down and 4 up], going to 14-10-16 [5 down and 1up] which would be a mad scramble to avoid dropping down to 10-12-18 again.... then repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Van Dyke Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 18 teams, play each other twice.boom! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloPerth Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 fans are not quite so eager to watch games when the weather is at its worst as they used to be. I'm afraid I think this is makey uppy pish as well. Happy to be proven wrong. Would like to see the football authorities do some research into this. Would like it to be slanted towards canvassing opinions of those who go to matches on a regular basis. My feelings are that those who go to a couple of games a season (and not criticising those folk here) like the idea of rocking up in a t-shirt on a nice sunny afternoon after a couple of pints in a beer garden and look forward to doing it again in a couple of months. Those who go most weeks, for whom attending games on a regular basis is part of their routine throughout the winter, want folk to leave it as it is and stop trying to change things for the sake of a change. There is such a misconception amongst the people who run our game that if you make a big announcement and fanfare about a change, give it a fresh new name, then it means sponsors and new supporters will come rushing in to back our game, regardless of whether the change makes any tangible improvements. A far higher standard of pitches the whole season, cheaper entry to games, safe standing areas and less unhelpful stewarding to improve atmosphere, better standard of facilities at grounds. Just some simple improvements for starters that would make a difference rather than constant turd polishing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insert Amusing Pseudonym Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 I'm afraid I think this is makey uppy pish as well. Happy to be proven wrong. Would like to see the football authorities do some research into this. Would like it to be slanted towards canvassing opinions of those who go to matches on a regular basis. My feelings are that those who go to a couple of games a season (and not criticising those folk here) like the idea of rocking up in a t-shirt on a nice sunny afternoon after a couple of pints in a beer garden and look forward to doing it again in a couple of months. Those who go most weeks, for whom attending games on a regular basis is part of their routine throughout the winter, want folk to leave it as it is and stop trying to change things for the sake of a change. There is such a misconception amongst the people who run our game that if you make a big announcement and fanfare about a change, give it a fresh new name, then it means sponsors and new supporters will come rushing in to back our game, regardless of whether the change makes any tangible improvements. A far higher standard of pitches the whole season, cheaper entry to games, safe standing areas and less unhelpful stewarding to improve atmosphere, better standard of facilities at grounds. Just some simple improvements for starters that would make a difference rather than constant turd polishing. While there's large parts of this I agree with, it's the folk who don't go every week you need to appeal to. Folk who go every week will no be put off by it being during, relatively, better weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 18 teams, play each other twice.boom!That would've worked when you were in Mary fucking Poppins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pride_of_the_Clyde Posted December 11, 2015 Share Posted December 11, 2015 Hello. Read the thread with interest. My comments: Fairly content with the system as is in all four divisions, it makes sense. My main criticism is that we have four divisions, though. A promotion from League 2 at present is promotion to a barely more glamorous league. Three tiers makes it more possible for ambitious, able lower league sides to aim for the Premiership. Three tiers though means a move away from the current, okay, set up. Easiest way to do that is 3x 14. And if you're realistic enough to accept that four OF games are a requirement of any set up, a split is needed. Again easiest way to do that is 7-7. What's the big deal about a team in each 7 having a bye week? Nothing major, the proviso of this being that there are set fixtures and the teams in 7th and 8th at the time of split have their week off in the final week of the season as probability states they're least likely to be in a match of consequence for them. It's all really quite simple: Gives bigger leagues which the fans apparently want, Retains same amount of games for Premiership sides, gives four OF games, gives lower leagues sides an extra home gate, everyone plays everyone an even home and away slate and there's one less level of tier to go through to reach the Premiership. Bigger league probably increases the likelihood of more promotion/relegation places between the leagues however you feel you'd like that done. Simple? Yes. Await your agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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