14 team "Premiership" next season

[glasgow-sheep]

Seems to be the most recent "reconstruction" thread so will post this here:

 

http://www.donssupporterstogether.com/images/LeagueReconstructionSurveyReport.pdf

 

 

DST report shows that the majority (of 800+ that responded) want a bigger league.

 

Be careful what you wish for.

[craigkillie]

Seems to be the most recent "reconstruction" thread so will post this here:

 

http://www.donssupporterstogether.com/images/LeagueReconstructionSurveyReport.pdf

 

 

DST report shows that the majority (of 800+ that responded) want a bigger league.

 

Be careful what you wish for.

 

 

Obviously some real rocket scientists filling out that survey.

 

46% of them want a 16 team league, but only 15% of them want a 30 game season.

[Mr Bairn]

Obviously some real rocket scientists filling out that survey.

 

46% of them want a 16 team league, but only 15% of them want a 30 game season.

 

 

Whilst I personally favour the 16 team, 30 game model, it's fairly possible to have a 16 team league with more than 30 league games.

 

A simple 8-8 split is unlikely because 44 games is far too many and 37 would lead to a home/away imbalance, but perhaps a 4-6-6 would be possible with teams playing 35/36 games

 

Reset the points to 0 after 30 games

 

Top 4 play home and away for the title and 2 European spots, 3rd place and 4th place enter a EL playoff

 

Middle 6 play 5 games (5-7 get 3 at home) and the top 2 from this group enter the EL playoff

 

Bottom 6 play 5 games (11-13 get 3 at home) with the bottom side relegated and 2nd bottom dropping in to the playoffs

[LongTimeLurker]

There are many possibilities with 16, like the Polish model:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2%80%9315_Ekstraklasa#League_table

[SilverWolfe]

Whilst I personally favour the 16 team, 30 game model, it's fairly possible to have a 16 team league with more than 30 league games.

 

A simple 8-8 split is unlikely because 44 games is far too many and 37 would lead to a home/away imbalance, but perhaps a 4-6-6 would be possible with teams playing 35/36 games

 

Reset the points to 0 after 30 games

 

 

 

If you're going to reset to 0 after 30 games, you'd be better off having American style playoffs (which I would personally love)

[Enigma]

There are many possibilities with 16, like the Polish model:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2%80%9315_Ekstraklasa#League_table

I'd go for that but have the 'spare' teams each week play each other in a bonus fixture to keep it all even.

[Ross.]

There are many possibilities with 16, like the Polish model:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2%80%9315_Ekstraklasa#League_table

 

The only thing I am taking from that is that Flavio Paxiao finished second top scorer in that league. That is reason enough to ignore them as some kind of model to start our improvement.

[Nightmare]

Obviously some real rocket scientists filling out that survey.

 

46% of them want a 16 team league, but only 15% of them want a 30 game season.

 

I'm possibly being too generous here, but maybe they're just aware that there are alternative ways of structuring a 16-team league to the standard 'play everyone home & away' model.

 

I think 16 teams would be ideal, and while 30 league games will be too few for the clubs to get on board with such an idea, there are plenty of ways to work around that, such as the aforementioned Polish Ekstraklasa.

[HibeeJibee]

Basically it highlights the perils of surveying on the basis of separate, unrelated questions.

 

 

Dons fans (or more accurately: those who completed the survey) prefer a 16-team top division... but they want 36 or 38 games... but they don't want to play people 3 or 4 times, going by 2 separate questions.

 

They'd 5 options regarding the priorities for any restructuring... and said all 5 were 'Very Important' .

 

Of those 5 they included European performance, national team performance, increasing attendances and increasing TV money, all of which would not be expected to improve with a bigger top division (certainly not the last pair).

 

They prefer 3 nationwide divisions... but they want the lower leagues (plural) regionalised. Not that it affects Aberdeen at all, of course, but nevermind.

 

Most of them voted for a League Cup format (explicitly that being introduced with a 5-round groupstage before a Last 16)... and half of them also voted for a cross-border cup... having also voted for 36 or 38 league games. Maybe the half would abolish the Scottish Cup, tbf.

 

 

To be fair their comments section at the end is quite balanced.

 

Nevertheless there is the usual "no-one else in Europe has a split!!" numpty...

 

... actually, about 1 in 4 have a split.

[hk blues]

Whilst I personally favour the 16 team, 30 game model, it's fairly possible to have a 16 team league with more than 30 league games.

A simple 8-8 split is unlikely because 44 games is far too many and 37 would lead to a home/away imbalance, but perhaps a 4-6-6 would be possible with teams playing 35/36 games

Reset the points to 0 after 30 games

Top 4 play home and away for the title and 2 European spots, 3rd place and 4th place enter a EL playoff

Middle 6 play 5 games (5-7 get 3 at home) and the top 2 from this group enter the EL playoff

Bottom 6 play 5 games (11-13 get 3 at home) with the bottom side relegated and 2nd bottom dropping in to the playoffs

Seems 'wrong' to reset to zero albeit if everybody knows the rules before why not but perhaps give 'starter points' to teams based on position before split i.e. 4 points for 1st;2 points for 2nd;1 point for 3rd;Nil points for 4th?

[RedLichtie86]

I have been working away at making a new league setup on Football Manager. ( yes i know, its not perfect but it does the job.)

With the introduction of group stages in the league cup next season, having only 30 league games would be offset by having these extra games in the cup.

I have made a setup of a 16 team top flight.

20 team championship.

With the third tier with a North/East/West leagues.

And so forth downwards.

Top 36 teams are split up into 6 groups of 6 in the league cup group stages. Best 16 teams go onto knockout stages.

30 game league season with a minimum 5 league cup group matches.

Ran the leagues for 20 years. Not many problems. I did have a good chuckle when Inverness CT won the league and Sevco got relegated.

[sergie's no1 fan]

16 team top league.

 

Splits into 4 groups of 4 after 30 games. Each team plays each other home and away therefor 36 games are played.

 

Imagine there is hardly any points between Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen and they play each other twice to decide the title? The tv companies would love that.

 

Or the 2nd group all fighting it out for a European place.

 

The bottom group all trying to avoid the relegation places.

 

Only problem would be the 3rd group but they could use it as a chance to blood in some youngsters ect.

 

Probably a load of nonsense but I think it could create a bit of excitement. Would also take the split to a new level!

[Free Agent]

I have been working away at making a new league setup on Football Manager. ( yes i know, its not perfect but it does the job.)

With the introduction of group stages in the league cup next season, having only 30 league games would be offset by having these extra games in the cup.

I have made a setup of a 16 team top flight.

20 team championship.

With the third tier with a North/East/West leagues.

And so forth downwards.

Top 36 teams are split up into 6 groups of 6 in the league cup group stages. Best 16 teams go onto knockout stages.

30 game league season with a minimum 5 league cup group matches.

Ran the leagues for 20 years. Not many problems. I did have a good chuckle when Inverness CT won the league and Sevco got relegated.

I'm sick of hearing that these extra League Cup games could offset and allow for fewer league fixtures.

The League Cup has had poor attendances compared to league matches.

The games will be played at a time of year we haven't played games before (or recently) - who can forecast what the uptake will be from fans.

The format means half of the smaller teams in a group won't get a home game against a Premiership team.

We don't know how gate receipts will be split, though perhaps the clubs do.

Half of the ties will be played midweek, such matches tend to lower crowds and less revenue from other income streams.

You can't just make the statement that these fixtures offset. While I won't say categorically they won't, I highly highly doubt they're going to offer equivalent income to league matches. And that's before you get to the fact that this League Cup change was brought to supplement matches and income to clubs!

[Free Agent]

When I consider the league format issue, there is one thing I think you have to achieve for it to be approved: minimal change in the face of the self-interest.

The other tenant is that attendances increase when matches have more at stake.

So:

PREMIERSHIP: 12 teams. 32 games.

Same format except every team play H&A and split at 22 games. Top six and bottom six play H&A for a further 10 games. I'd relegate two automatically but would accept a change to 11th joining a playoff in the same format as League 1 and League 2.

CHAMPIONSHIP: 12 teams. 32 games.

Format as above. One automatically promoted and either 2-4 or 2-5 in playoffs. 11th either automatically relegated (my preference) or enter playoff in format of current League 1/2.

LEAGUE ONE/NATIONWIDE LEAGUE: 18 teams. 34 matches.

However you want to brand it. Each team plays H&A. One up automatically, 2-4 or 2-5 in playoffs. 18th relegated and 17th into playoff in current HL/LL playoff format.

HL/LL: 18 and 16 teams. 34 and 30 matches.

Current formats remain. League winners playoff with winner up. Loser plays off against 17th from League 1/Nationwide with winner up.

(HL has talked about 2x divisions of ten - happy to go with a top tier of ten if that's what they want).

HL East and North/LL East and West:

Further regionalisation comes with incorporation of Junior regions, Caledonian League, SoS and EoS. These divide in numbers and sizes of league as makes sense to them along line of East and West in the Lowlands and East and North in the Highlands. If the juniors still don't want to come then we can do all of the above without them and keep EoS and SoS as the tiers below LL.

So there you have it. Quite simple and won't be radical enough for some malcontents but it's realistic as it doesn't greatly change much for any team. It does reduce the number of league games but encourages more matches with greater incentives which should stimulate attendance.

Happy to take on any feedback.

[Desp]

16 team top league.

 

Splits into 4 groups of 4 after 30 games. Each team plays each other home and away therefor 36 games are played.

 

Imagine there is hardly any points between Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen and they play each other twice to decide the title? The tv companies would love that.

 

Or the 2nd group all fighting it out for a European place.

 

The bottom group all trying to avoid the relegation places.

 

Only problem would be the 3rd group but they could use it as a chance to blood in some youngsters ect.

 

Probably a load of nonsense but I think it could create a bit of excitement. Would also take the split to a new level!

 

We only get 4 Euro places I believe? 

Your scenario would then give a European place to the team finishing 5th but nothing to the team finishing 4th. 

[HibeeJibee]

We get 4 CL/EL slots, but 1 of those is assigned to the Scottish Cup.

 

So basically:

 

1st = CL

2nd, 5th, Cup Winner = EL

 

 

FreeAgent absolutely nailed it on LC sections, btw. Bravo.

 

EDIT: Oh dear, then suggests splitting after 22 games and playing only 10 more. Everyone loses 6 games, and lots of meaningless Bottom 6 games. It was going so well .

[Ya Bezzer!]

In an ideal world I'd like a 16 team league structure because nobody wants to see their team playing the same opposition at least 3 and possibly 6 or 7 times in a season.

 

However we do not live in an ideal world and I think the current situation is just about the best we can hope for, certainly the top and bottom 6 has created something for mid table clubs to play for and the play off system has been a great feature.  Almost all the clubs in the current league set up have something to play for, even, ultimately, a team marooned at the bottom of the league structure.

 

I don't think clubs can really afford the reduction in the number of matches but my main objection with the 16 team league structure is that I don't think we have enough teams with big enough supports to make it viable.  Any team being relegated, for example lets say Dundee Utd since they are bottom of the league, would then go down into what would effectively be a bottom of the Championship and League One.  Dumbarton's, Alloa's, Brechin's.  No offense to any of those teams but it would make it very difficult for a medium sized professional club to survive down there.  Also there would probably be a much bigger gap in quality between the two leagues than there is now between the top league and the one below it.  Most likely you'd see the same four or five yo-yo clubs going up and down with smaller clubs that are currently down the league structure being unable to compete. 

 

For me the 12-10-10-10 needs to be left alone.  It would be great if we had a situation like in England where they have 50, 60 clubs that get good attendances and can generate income and therefore competition but we don't have that.  

[sergie's no1 fan]

We only get 4 Euro places I believe?

Your scenario would then give a European place to the team finishing 5th but nothing to the team finishing 4th.

Yeah it's skewed a bit. Maybe to make it fairer 4th v 5th can have a one off match to determine who gets the Euro spot. Again add a bit of spice to the tv and would guarantee a big crowd at a neutral venue.

[Mr Bairn]

16 team top league.

 

Splits into 4 groups of 4 after 30 games. Each team plays each other home and away therefor 36 games are played.

 

Imagine there is hardly any points between Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Aberdeen and they play each other twice to decide the title? The tv companies would love that.

 

Or the 2nd group all fighting it out for a European place.

 

The bottom group all trying to avoid the relegation places.

 

Only problem would be the 3rd group but they could use it as a chance to blood in some youngsters ect.

 

Probably a load of nonsense but I think it could create a bit of excitement. Would also take the split to a new level!

 

 

I'm sure one of the European countries have a 4-8-4 split

 

Top 4 obviously playoff for the title and the bottom 4 for survival

 

Middle 8 are split into two groups, 5/8/9/12 and 6/7/10/11, the winners of each group go into an EL playoffs with the two teams from the top 4 that finish bottom of the final table

 

So essentially you end up with

 

Top 4

1 Champions

2 EL slot

3 and 4 into EL playoffs

 

Middle 8

Two group winners into EL playoffs

[lubo_blaha]

In an ideal world I'd like a 16 team league structure because nobody wants to see their team playing the same opposition at least 3 and possibly 6 or 7 times in a season.

 

However we do not live in an ideal world and I think the current situation is just about the best we can hope for, certainly the top and bottom 6 has created something for mid table clubs to play for and the play off system has been a great feature.  Almost all the clubs in the current league set up have something to play for, even, ultimately, a team marooned at the bottom of the league structure.

 

I don't think clubs can really afford the reduction in the number of matches but my main objection with the 16 team league structure is that I don't think we have enough teams with big enough supports to make it viable.  Any team being relegated, for example lets say Dundee Utd since they are bottom of the league, would then go down into what would effectively be a bottom of the Championship and League One.  Dumbarton's, Alloa's, Brechin's.  No offense to any of those teams but it would make it very difficult for a medium sized professional club to survive down there.  Also there would probably be a much bigger gap in quality between the two leagues than there is now between the top league and the one below it.  Most likely you'd see the same four or five yo-yo clubs going up and down with smaller clubs that are currently down the league structure being unable to compete. 

 

For me the 12-10-10-10 needs to be left alone.  It would be great if we had a situation like in England where they have 50, 60 clubs that get good attendances and can generate income and therefore competition but we don't have that.  

 

Definitely agree with this. As much as people say the standard of the Championship is an argument to expand the Premiership, I think there it is important to maintain a strong second tier, largely made up of professional clubs. As it stands, relegation is not as catastrophic as in other countries as the income gap is much smaller an there are increased opportunities to get promoted with the inclusion of play-offs. As you said, I think if a reasonably sized professional club went from having a Premiership levels of income to playing in a league where at least half of the teams are part-time with some having attendances of under 1000, it would be too big of a financial jump. That isn't a slight on part-time teams, I just feel that the current league system works well in that respect.