Alex Salmond.

[thepundit]

You can forgive my misunderstanding, I'm sure, based as it was on:

"You're doing nothing to disprove the belief of many that no matter how useless the SNP are people will still vote for them"

For what it's worth, I'll vote SNP until such a time as Scotland is independent (and as long as it's the party best places to deliver it). After that, I'd be voting for a party which has a more radical platform that that envisioned by the SNP.

The comment you quoted is separate from my initial question. Apologies for any confusion caused.

If you want to continue voting for the SNP for one reason and one reason only, that's fair enough. I think such narrow minded voting will hold the country back though. Just my opinion. I'd rather Scotland had 2 or 3 parties with enough support to hold each other to account and ensure whoever is in power will deliver on their promises, which would have to be significant if they're to win an election.

[Antlion]

The comment you quoted is separate from my initial question. Apologies for any confusion caused.

If you want to continue voting for the SNP for one reason and one reason only, that's fair enough. I think such narrow minded voting will hold the country back though. Just my opinion. I'd rather Scotland had 2 or 3 parties with enough support to hold each other to account and ensure whoever is in power will deliver on their promises, which would have to be significant if they're to win an election.

I have already offered reasons why I'm voting SNP in addition to their belief in Scotland's future. I'm not sure how such a view can "hold the country back" - it's the SNP (and the Greens, and RISE) who want to make Scotland a country. It's the regionalist parties and their supporters who fought tooth and nail to prevent Scotland being a country, and instead to remain an incorporated region of a larger one. I'm afraid the nature of the Treaty of Union is what it is - it made one single country out of several, retaining "Scotland" and "England" as regional territories of the United Kingdom of Great Britain (and later Northern Ireland).

I would like a decent opposition to the SNP, but there simply isn't one in Scotland the region. Perhaps in an independent Scotland there would be (after all, other democratic sovereign states seem to manage, albeit the UK is struggling a great deal). I'd certainly hope so, and ideally a party that would challenge the SNP from the left.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Antlion

[MarkoRaj]

If you want to continue voting for the SNP for one reason and one reason only, that's fair enough. I think such narrow minded voting will hold the country back though. Just my opinion. I'd rather Scotland had 2 or 3 parties with enough support to hold each other to account and ensure whoever is in power will deliver on their promises, which would have to be significant if they're to win an election.

What difference does it actually make? No matter who is in charge, their budget is decided by someone else. Scottish politics will always be one big blame game until we get independence.

[MarkoRaj]

No i will take the UK just as it is if the price of administrating the oil industry is creating a new independent nation.Seems a bit of a leap just to control an ailing industry.To be fair there are times im sympathetic to some of the arguments about independence but some of the Fantasy Island stuff in the White Paper regarding finance and revenues just makes me think NO.

You are an idiot

[thepundit]

I have already offered reasons why I'm voting SNP in addition to their belief in Scotland's future. I'm not sure how such a view can "hold the country back" - it's the SNP (and the Greens, and RISE) who want to make Scotland a country. It's the regionalist parties and their supporters who fought tooth and nail to prevent Scotland being a country, and instead to remain an incorporated region of a larger one. I'm afraid the nature of the Treaty of Union is what it is - it made one single country out of several, retaining "Scotland" and "England" as regional territories of the United Kingdom of Great Britain (and later Northern Ireland).

I would like a decent opposition to the SNP, but there simply isn't one in Scotland the region. Perhaps in an independent Scotland there would be (after all, other democratic sovereign states seem to manage, albeit the UK is struggling a great deal). I'd certainly hope so, and ideally a party that would challenge the SNP from the left.

You seem to think Scotland can only improve if it's independent. It can improve as part of the United Kingdom too, you know. Even more so, in fact, as it has a more stable economy thanks to the No victory in the referendum.

Not sure what all the "Scotland the region", "regionalist parties", "prevent Scotland being country" patter is all about.

[1320Lichtie]

You seem to think Scotland can only improve if it's independent.

Because that IS the ONLY way we can improve.

After last years embarrassment and us being utterly hopeless at the only thing we care about and compete at on a national stage, I think we should just call it quits as a 'country' anyway tbh.

[Snakebite]

Here's the bold yin in all his glory.

[doulikefish]

You seem to think Scotland can only improve if it's independent. It can improve as part of the United Kingdom too, you know. Even more so, in fact, as it has a more stable economy thanks to the No victory in the referendum.

Not sure what all the "Scotland the region", "regionalist parties", "prevent Scotland being country" patter is all about.

Stable economy lol Gideons borrowing left right and centre to keep his nose above the water,i know the sayings neck above but gideon and chums have made a bigger arse of it than tony and friends

[Fide]

Thepundit got his arse handed to him on a plate. Pleasing.

I can't believe anyone still genuinely thinks Scotland can prosper and thrive as part of the UK.

The utter disdain in Westminster for Scotland since the only show in town rolled in is proof of this.

[Antlion]

You seem to think Scotland can only improve if it's independent. It can improve as part of the United Kingdom too, you know. Even more so, in fact, as it has a more stable economy thanks to the No victory in the referendum.

Not sure what all the "Scotland the region", "regionalist parties", "prevent Scotland being country" patter is all about.

Scotland can improve as long as we prevent it from being able to choose its own sovereign governments? Don't pretend you actually believe that. It's an abdication of responsibility based purely on belief in the British state (which has, in recent decades, an appalling track record).

[Antlion]

Thepundit got his arse handed to him on a plate. Pleasing.

I can't believe anyone still genuinely thinks Scotland can prosper and thrive as part of the UK.

The utter disdain in Westminster for Scotland since the only show in town rolled in is proof of this.

To be honest I'm not sure many people do think Scotland can "prosper and thrive" as part of the U.K. Their reasons for objecting to independence are that they have even less faith in Scotland as a nation (after decades of being told we're too small, poor and incompetent to govern ourselves) or that they are simply loyal to British state as an ideological and political project.

[mjw]

or that they are simply loyal to British state as an ideological and political project.

Rangers fans then.

[Ira Gaines]

Litchie really is a crybaby. Wish he would just f**k off.

[Fide]

To be honest I'm not sure many people do think Scotland can "prosper and thrive" as part of the U.K. Their reasons for objecting to independence are that they have even less faith in Scotland as a nation (after decades of being told we're too small, poor and incompetent to govern ourselves) or that they are simply loyal to British state as an ideological and political project.

I can understand the latter, to an extent. Some people, weirdly and quite perversely have a real affinity with the "United Kingdom". I get that.

What I don't get is anyone who thinks we'd be worse off running our own affairs than the absolute clusterfuck consecutive Westminster governments have made of running Scotland.

[Antlion]

I can understand the latter, to an extent. Some people, weirdly and quite perversely have a real affinity with the "United Kingdom". I get that.

What I don't get is anyone who thinks we'd be worse off running our own affairs than the absolute clusterfuck consecutive Westminster governments have made of running Scotland.

Agree with this entirely. I have no problem with people who out-and-out see themselves as British first - that's their right. It's the ones who feel the need to claim that they're proud Scottish patriots whilst actively fighting tooth and nail to prevent Scotland's sovereignty that I have little time for. It would be like a proud and patriotic Briton wanting Westminster to be a devolved parliament and for the UK's sovereign parliament to be relocated to Paris, Berlin or Madrid.

[kevthedee]

Because that IS the ONLY way we can improve.

After last years embarrassment and us being utterly hopeless at the only thing we care about and compete at on a national stage, I think we should just call it quits as a 'country' anyway tbh.

No last year was not an embarrassment,it was a fantastic show of democracy in action by the scottish people and yes scotland as part of the can improve.

[Fide]

No last year was not an embarrassment,it was a fantastic show of democracy in action by the scottish people and yes scotland as part of the can improve.

You're not even trying any more Kev.

You are now clearly trolling.

[BerwickMad]

Because that IS the ONLY way we can improve..

That's absolute nonsense really. You may think it has a better chance of improving through independence, but to claim Scotland can't improve as part of the union is untrue. It has improved during numerous periods over the past 300 years.

[renton]

That's absolute nonsense really. You may think it has a better chance of improving through independence, but to claim Scotland can't improve as part of the union is untrue. It has improved during numerous periods over the past 300 years.

In this case, past performance (patchy even though that was) is no indicator of future performance, so when Lichtie says it can't improve in the Union, he's clearly speaking in a contemporary sense, and while that view may be poorly quantifiable, pointing to the Scottish enlightenment or the industrial revolution doesn't actually negate his point.

[RiG]

Oiii oii Kev!

ImageUploadedByPie & Bovril1448561434.514028.jpg

The lass behind looks like an absolute 'wid' BTW.

Here's the bold yin in all his glory.

I'm pretty sure that's not a picture of Salmond. I think you've just taken a picture of his head and put it on a picture of someone else.