Alex Salmond.

[RedRob72]

Britain is the name of the island, ergo you can still be British in an independent Scotland.

" You can still be British in an Independent Scotland"!!

I'll wait and see if that's a Yes campaign slogan for the next ref if it comes then Strich, I'm sure we'll be flocking in droves.

[Antlion]

" You can still be British in an Independent Scotland"!!

I'll wait and see if that's a Yes campaign slogan for the next ref if it comes then Strich, I'm sure we'll be flocking in droves.

It's a not a "can", it's a "will". The BritNats will still be British, but they'll be national Scottish citizens rather than UK citizens (which is what they apparently object to, because independent UK good, independent Scotland bad).

However, I'm fairly sure that citizens in the Republic of Ireland could apply for dual citizenship for decades, and are still not considered "foreign" under the 1949 Nationality Act. Would this happen in the event of Scotland's independence? I don't know (and hardly fucking care); but there's the only precedent for what happens to nationality and citizenship when a constituent region of the UK achieves independent sovereignty.

[RedRob72]

I'm afraid that the geographical situations are entirely analogous. The Scandinavian countries each retain Scandinavian identities without having to engage in the type of centralised political union the British nations entered into. The UK does not have a monopoly on "British" identity - British identity predates it by centuries. You might equate Britishness with being governed from London and being an incorporated region of your favoured nation state, but that doesn't somehow erase or efface the history of geographical Britishness long predating the formation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

When you say you don't want to lose British identity, you mean you don't want to lose Westminster's rule over Scotland by dint of Scotland being a region/territory of the UK. That's the all of it. That's fair enough - you see yourself as a UK citizen first and foremost. If you became a Scottish citizen first and foremost (just try and beat with that horrific image), you'd still be "British".

Frankly, you'd be better off explaining why you don't want Scotland to be a sovereign state in terms of what's so jolly good about the UK rather than airings nebulous fears about the loss of an identity that was around before the UK was even a glint in either James VI's or Queen Anne's eye (under whom it actually came to pass).

You're just not getting this, I am a British Scottish citizen within a Union of English, Welsh and Northern Irish Countrymen, fine with it and quite content, I have no fears. My Identity is not in question at all. Yours is and I completely understand that.

[Antlion]

You're just not getting this, I am a British Scottish citizen within a Union of English, Welsh and Northern Irish Countrymen, fine with it and quite content, I have no fears. My Identity is not in question at all. Yours is and I completely understand that.

No you are not - you are a UK citizen. You rejected Scottish citizenship. I'm not criticising you for that; some Scots want to be Scottish citizens first and foremost, some want to be UK citizens first and foremost. But it shows an astonishing ignorance (in the pure sense of the word) to claim that you are a British Scottish citizen. There is no such dual citizenship here - you're a UK citizen who wants "Scottishness" to have the same weight in terms of citizenship as being Glaswegian or Cornish.

For such a stalwart support of the UK, you seem unwilling to acknowledge what it is: the union created a new nation, extinguishing the citizenships and national sovereignties of the old nations which were absorbed into it. You're no more a "British Scottish citizen" than Dawn French is a British Devonshire citizen: like me and you, she is a UK citizen who is British by dint of being born in the region of Devonshire, Great Britain, just as we were born in the region of Scotland, Great Britain. This is not difficult stuff.

[1320Lichtie]

Why is this so hard for you to get Rob?

[MassiveFanDan]

Turns out Salmond was meeting with servicemen and veterans at an event organized by the War Memorials Trust while Cameron was making his statement on Syria.

Y does he hate are brave boys, eh?

So in an independent Scotland will I still get a "British" passport ?? What a waste of time then.

You would literally still be a British citizen. The UK Government conceded this was the case during the ref (after a few months of Better Together saying the opposite).

In its latest analysis of the consequences of independence, focusing on borders and citizenship, it says it is likely that Scots would be able to hold dual Scottish and British nationality.

The next generation of Scots would also be British, the paper suggests, as children inherit citizenship under present UK rules...

As British citizens, Scots would keep their existing passports and continue to qualify for UK consular help abroad.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13142102.Scots_to_stay_British_despite_vote/

[RedRob72]

No you are not - you are a UK citizen. You rejected Scottish citizenship. I'm not criticising you for that; some Scots want to be Scottish citizens first and foremost, some want to be UK citizens first and foremost. But it shows an astonishing ignorance (in the pure sense of the word) to claim that you are a British Scottish citizen. There is no such dual citizenship here - you're a UK citizen who wants "Scottishness" to have the same weight in terms of citizenship as being Glaswegian or Cornish.

For such a stalwart support of the UK, you seem unwilling to acknowledge what it is: the union created a new nation, extinguishing the citizenships and national sovereignties of the old nations which were absorbed into it. You're no more a "British Scottish citizen" than Dawn French is a British Devonshire citizen: like me and you, she is a UK citizen who is British by dint of being born in the region of Devonshire, Great Britain, just as we were born in the region of Scotland, Great Britain. This is not difficult stuff.

Deary me, for a start, wasn't Dawn French born in North Wales!? Jeez just how far do you want to go back, the Romans perhaps? The Antonine wall!? I'm a British Scot, that's it !! It's always been this way for us and for many generations before. I'm sure that most Englishmen, Welsh and Northern Irish are equally comfortable describing themselves as British, the majority certainly.

Please can you let Fide back in from the shed outside btw, he's a far more palatable spokesman for the Nationalist cause?

[RedRob72]

Why is this so hard for you to get Rob?

It's not Lichtie, British & Scottish it's easy, I've been with it for as long as I can remember. I take no preference over either, just embrace both.

[Antlion]

Deary me, for a start, wasn't Dawn French born in North Wales!? Jeez just how far do you want to go back, the Romans perhaps? The Antonine wall!? I'm a British Scot, that's it !! It's always been this way for us and for many generations before. I'm sure that most Englishmen, Welsh and Northern Irish are equally comfortable describing themselves as British, the majority certainly.

Please can you let Fide back in from the shed outside btw, he's a far more palatable spokesman for the Nationalist cause?

And you'd be a British Scot if the teat of the UK government was plucked from your lips. What you might not be is a UK citizen. It's fine to affiliate yourself primarily with the unitary UK state (in the way many US citizens affiliate themselves strongly with the USA, which was created in the same century as the UK); but let's not pretend that the UK allows for the retention of the citizenships of the states which its creation was predicated upon extinguishing.

I would imagine that most proponents of Scottish independence are unhappy with the way the UK functions, and want an out. The fact that Scotland is in a position, as a signatory of the original Treaty of Union which created the UK (and now possessed of a devolved parliament) to achieve that, is simply something that isn't going to go away. People are not going to be fooled into believing that a clearly unitary state - the UK - is somehow a happy multinational family which encompasses a host of recognised citizenships. It isn't. Just as a US citizen doesn't have Texan or Georgian citizenships, and Germany doesn't have Bavarian citizenship.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Antlion

[Antlion]

It's not Lichtie, British & Scottish it's easy, I've been with it for as long as I can remember. I take no preference over either, just embrace both.

And so you'd be happy with independence and a geographical rather than a political British identity? After all, you have no preference.

[Romeo]

Im not reading through the entire thread, has someone posted the gif of him walking into the wrestling thing, if not get it done now.

[RedRob72]

And you'd be a British Scot if the teat of the UK government was plucked from your lips. What you might not be is a UK citizen. It's fine to affiliate yourself primarily with the unitary UK state (in the way many US citizens affiliate themselves strongly with the USA, which was created in the same century as the UK); but let's not pretend that the UK allows for the retention of the citizenships of the states which its creation was predicated upon extinguishing.

I would imagine that most proponents of Scottish independence are unhappy with the way the UK functions, and want an out. The fact that Scotland is in a position, as a signatory of the original Treaty of Union which created the UK (and now possessed of a devolved parliament) to achieve that, is simply something that isn't going to go away. People are not going to be fooled into believing that a clearly unitary state - the UK - is somehow a happy multinational family which encompasses a host of recognised citizenships. It isn't. Just as a US citizen doesn't have Texan or Georgian citizenships, and Germany doesn't have Bavarian citizenship.

You continue to use examples that have no relevance or comparison with the U.K. I don't think people (Scots) will be fooled either, it will still be a No whether the next Ref is in 5 years or 10. If the majority do decide to leave the UK, I'll go with it. I'm not sure that will be reciprocated though, if we remain. Like it or not there are millions of us still to be convinced it's the right way to go.

[RedRob72]

Just checked it btw, Dawn French was born on Anglesey in 1957, Mon mate get yer research done!!

[Antlion]

You continue to use examples that have no relevance or comparison with the U.K. I don't think people (Scots) will be fooled either, it will still be a No whether the next Ref is in 5 years or 10. If the majority do decide to leave the UK, I'll go with it. I'm not sure that will be reciprocated though, if we remain. Like it or not there are millions of us still to be convinced it's the right way to go.

Of course they do (albeit the examples of the US and Germany actually grant MORE autonomy to their constituent regions than the UK does, as they are federal unions rather than incorporating ones). Your adoration of the UK is all the less understandable because you seem to know very little about how it was formed, how it functions and what it is. But putting your fingers in your ears and pretending that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland somehow uniquely amongst unitary states offers Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish and English citizenships doesn't make it so.

If this is the level of misunderstanding amongst pro-UK Scots, it's small wonder that the referendum campaign saw them consistently lose support. Hardcore British Nationalism is dying out, and much more quickly than I would have thought.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Antlion

[RedRob72]

Of course they do (albeit the examples of the US and Germany actually grant MORE autonomy to their constituent regions than the UK does, as they are federal unions rather than incorporating ones). Your adoration of the UK is all the less understandable because you seem to know very little about how it was formed, how it functions and what it is. But putting your fingers in your ears and pretending that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland somehow uniquely amongst unitary states offers Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish and English citizenships doesn't make it so.

If this is the level of misunderstanding amongst pro-UK Scots, it's small wonder that the referendum campaign saw them consistently lose support. Hardcore British Nationalism is dying out, and much more quickly than I would have thought.

A dwindling support that still secured 55% of the electorate, despite an acute misunderstanding of how the Union was originally formed!!

The nights must fly by eh!?

(It's much appreciated how sorry you feel for us btw, your patronising drawl has no boundaries)

[doulikefish]

A dwindling support that still secured 55% of the electorate, despite an acute misunderstanding of how the Union was originally formed!!

The nights must fly by eh!?

(It's much appreciated how sorry you feel for us btw, your patronising drawl has no boundaries)

55% of the people that were allowed to vote ,next time round it's a scots only thing and same rules as the forthcoming euro ref

[RedRob72]

55% of the people that were allowed to vote ,next time round it's a scots only thing and same rules as the forthcoming euro ref

Oh that's all good then, we wouldn't want any of they f*ckin foreigners (particularly the English bassas) who live and work here having a say, smashing!!

Jesus Christ!

[Mr Rational]

A bit like all these bloody Poles, 2 minutes in the country and they think they can vote us in eh?

[ScotSquid]

The correct terms are Unionist and Nationalist.

I wouldn't agree with this. I voted Yes but certainly am not a Nationalist.

I think its a lot more complex than a decision you can ascribe two labels to.

[ScotSquid]

55% of the people that were allowed to vote ,next time round it's a scots only thing and same rules as the forthcoming euro ref

I sincerely hope that's not the case.

It would be disgraceful if the SNP did that. We can and will win the next referendum without resorting to disgusting tactics such as that.