Cornishman Posted November 18, 2015 Author Share Posted November 18, 2015 The evidence for this is what? I doubt the full-time clubs ever give this issue much thought and they probably have the biggest say on this within the SPFL. Since the emergence of the fifth tier and the merged SPFL, the mechanism of the pro/rel playoff is now agreed upon between the SFA and the SPFL executive board, which is dominated by the top two tiers. The SFL may have opposed three-way regionalisation when the smaller part-time clubs held the majority of the votes in the context of an SFL AGM. In an SPFL context it's not clear that they hold anything like the same voting clout on this issue. I suspect the bigger issue would be the attitude of the nonleague seniors to losing the phoney barrier between junior and senior clubs and the financial subsidies that go with it. They form a large voting block at SFA AGMs, so licensing has been implemented in a way that first and foremost accomodates the existing full-members through the provision of grants for ground improvements, and when junior clubs did start to apply the progression clause was soon added to try to scare any gate crashers away. I agree your first point. It may no longer be as clear cut, however there's a helluva lot of inertia against 'League' teams having to drop out of 'national competition' if relegated... and I recall much ado five or more years past about this, basically becoming one of the founding precepts for forming a semi-national division akin the HFL to accommodate those relegatees for whom the HFL would not be 'a fit'. I'm afraid I'm unable to quote chapter and verse, sorry. Your second point may well be valid, but it's palpably not the only 'scuttling measure' in town; naming no names. I strongly suspect that despite these spiking-guns attempts, the SFA will eventually prove to have almost all such parties/cliques over a proverbial barrel before too long. I do not think the SFA is prepared to be long thwarted in their organisational plans. I have no illusions that progress will be made at any rapid pace, surely it will be a long drawn out attrition. I DO think that if not very careful, the SJFAs might well achieve the Pyrrhic victory of retaining their own largely unaltered structures - but doing so will see these slowly slipping down the reorganised levels of the game, not because there'll be any tacit punishment for failure to engage, no. Rather, the available players of particular levels of skill, until recently happy to ply their trade in the Juniors, will now find more opportunities to do so within the slowly expanding ranks of the evolving Senior Pyramid. If Junior clubs don't begin to fill the LFL (Premier Division, we'll call it.), then it'll be the BSC Glasgow & Edusports Academy clones plus Cumbernauld Colts & East Kilbride wannabes who will begin filling the inevitable LFL West & LFL East feeder divisions... taking away yet more players from the not infinite pool that the Juniors depend upon! It's simply all about better mousetraps in the end. Mark me, writing has been writ deep upon the wall. Remember: I'm apologist for neither side, Junior or Senior. This is just my predictive opinion on how I perceive the situation to be actively evolving. True, my OP model IS an 'utopianist' dream, hoping for a 'best possible compromise' between all parties - it's also attempting to be reasonably realistic, too. I've tried to put as much careful thought and willingness to compromise into the idea as I can - but I DO hear and respect others opinions upon mistakes/improvements... and will always try to respond creatively to solve any found. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilky1878 Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Bottom line ... you are wasting your time. We`ve been through all this with all the `authorities`, leagues, clubs, governments and their agencies, etc. SFA have NEVER organised football in this country ... it has all been sticky-plastered together, ad hoc. Ergo, we have 1.5% of clubs in voting membership and 99.4% (children, communities, players) denied access to a national league ... and the duff government support this catastrophe, which can only continue to get worse, because almost every other country is making much better efforts. What you have written might actually `progress` the rotten SFA `pyramid` ... but NOT the Scottish game. Scotland is exceptionally short of quality players and reasonable competition... which you don`t get without proper training and organisation ... which needs financed. Few clubs in SPFL, or any structure you would add, are capable of modest production or competition. We have to create capable clubs ... not by weak licencing, but by strong LEGISLATION... nothing with fewer than 1000 paying members, bringing us down to around 500 in Scotland .. and capable of reaching the top two levels. Portugal, where I spend a lot of time, are usually in all senior and age-group finals, with 122 clubs in the top three levels, compared to 32 in Scotland ... so nothing you have suggested would compete with that, or other strong countries, where most clubs are `community` type, owned by the members and well-structured. The only force that can deliver this is government ... by getting rid of SFA, SPFL and all other rotten structures. Congratulations to anyone on the forum who got that right .. I was reminded recently that Scotland gave the current game to the world (acknowledged by FIFA) and that football here pre-dates SFA, SPFL, FIFA and UEFA, as well as Scottish governments. WHO THE HELL gave them the right to stop our kids playing .. ? This post has left me pretty confused? Why is Portugal better than us just for having a shitload of teams in the top 3 levels and why have you brought youth football into this? I think if the pyramid expands it will do better for Scottish football but I also think to make the pyramid a lucrative offer we need to reconstruct our national leagues. Bigger top flight and only two or three national leagues before regional leagues. I'd have something like this: Premiership: (16) Celtic Aberdeen Hearts Dundee United Dundee Hamilton Ict Ross County Partick Thistle Kilmarnock Motherwell St Johnstone Rangers Hibs Falkirk Raith Division 1 (16) Morton St Mirren Queens Livi Dumbarton Alloa Ayr Dunfermline Stenhousemuir Albion Rovers Airdrie Peterhead Forfar Stranraer Brechin Div 2 (10) Arbroath Annan Montrose Elgin Stirling East Stirlingshire Berwick Clyde Queens Park East Fife Then Highland/Lowland league After this I don't know enough about Highland football but lowland could then go East/West and follow a structure similar to the juniors. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doonhamer doon south Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 Is that with two up two down and play off. And is that play off between div 2 and highland/lowland league as is now or would be guaranteed promotion/relegation. Certainly looks better to me than what is now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted November 22, 2015 Share Posted November 22, 2015 This post has left me pretty confused? Why is Portugal better than us just for having a shitload of teams in the top 3 levels and why have you brought youth football into this? I think if the pyramid expands it will do better for Scottish football but I also think to make the pyramid a lucrative offer we need to reconstruct our national leagues. Bigger top flight and only two or three national leagues before regional leagues. I'd have something like this: Premiership: (16) Celtic Aberdeen Hearts Dundee United Dundee Hamilton Ict Ross County Partick Thistle Kilmarnock Motherwell St Johnstone Rangers Hibs Falkirk Raith Division 1 (16) Morton St Mirren Queens Livi Dumbarton Alloa Ayr Dunfermline Stenhousemuir Albion Rovers Airdrie Peterhead Forfar Stranraer Brechin Div 2 (10) Arbroath Annan Montrose Elgin Stirling East Stirlingshire Berwick Clyde Queens Park East Fife Then Highland/Lowland league After this I don't know enough about Highland football but lowland could then go East/West and follow a structure similar to the juniors. Highland couldn't go the same route as the lowlands. Not enough teams. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornishman Posted November 23, 2015 Author Share Posted November 23, 2015 Bottom line ... you are wasting your time. We`ve been through all this with all the `authorities`, leagues, clubs, governments and their agencies, etc. SFA have NEVER organised football in this country ... it has all been sticky-plastered together, ad hoc. Ergo, we have 1.5% of clubs in voting membership and 99.4% (children, communities, players) denied access to a national league ... and the duff government support this catastrophe, which can only continue to get worse, because almost every other country is making much better efforts. What you have written might actually `progress` the rotten SFA `pyramid` ... but NOT the Scottish game. Scotland is exceptionally short of quality players and reasonable competition... which you don`t get without proper training and organisation ... which needs financed. Few clubs in SPFL, or any structure you would add, are capable of modest production or competition. We have to create capable clubs ... not by weak licencing, but by strong LEGISLATION... nothing with fewer than 1000 paying members, bringing us down to around 500 in Scotland .. and capable of reaching the top two levels. Portugal, where I spend a lot of time, are usually in all senior and age-group finals, with 122 clubs in the top three levels, compared to 32 in Scotland ... so nothing you have suggested would compete with that, or other strong countries, where most clubs are `community` type, owned by the members and well-structured. The only force that can deliver this is government ... by getting rid of SFA, SPFL and all other rotten structures. Congratulations to anyone on the forum who got that right .. I was reminded recently that Scotland gave the current game to the world (acknowledged by FIFA) and that football here pre-dates SFA, SPFL, FIFA and UEFA, as well as Scottish governments. WHO THE HELL gave them the right to stop our kids playing .. ? Egg first/chicken first? Absolutely damn right that the football itself also has to be dragged up by the bootstraps. However, if there's not a reasonably attractive local playing system in place, then it'll not matter how many UEFA A/B licensed coaches and club organisations, etc. you've got - it'll simply fail to attract/keep the actual players that are required. Remember too that Government 'interference' in football is severely sanctioned by FIFA ~ to the point of exclusion from competitions, so be realistic about what exact intervention you mean with that. Forget the Portuguese system, Scotland's closest European comparison nowadays is Iceland, who like the other Norse/Baltic nations before them, have made giant strides in progress in the last 30 years. So. Whatever league pyramid happens, or not... how would you practically, step-by-step see to those improvements you're advocating, assuming carte blanche? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilky1878 Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Is that with two up two down and play off. And is that play off between div 2 and highland/lowland league as is now or would be guaranteed promotion/relegation. Certainly looks better to me than what is now. If you're referring to me mines would be two up two down with a play off then one automatically down in division 2 with playoffs for who could come up from Highland/lowland. I think after that one automatically relegated from lowland league with playoffs in East/West then follow the juniors structure as or is just now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilky1878 Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 Highland couldn't go the same route as the lowlands. Not enough teams. Yeah, I couldn't even hazard a guess how the Highlands would go as I don't know enough about it. Remember teams down Arbroath way all the way across to oban (I think) would be Highland in the current boundaries. I'm not entirely sure how much that would change the number of teams. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doonhamer doon south Posted November 23, 2015 Share Posted November 23, 2015 If you're referring to me mines would be two up two down with a play off then one automatically down in division 2 with playoffs for who could come up from Highland/lowland. I think after that one automatically relegated from lowland league with playoffs in East/West then follow the juniors structure as or is just now. it was yes and I think that is one of the better suggestions out there, in both set up and promotions/relegation. I hope in the years to come more positive changes happen for the game 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilky1878 Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 it was yes and I think that is one of the better suggestions out there, in both set up and promotions/relegation. I hope in the years to come more positive changes happen for the game If you vote me to replace Cockwomble I will deliver this! Viva la revolution 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effeffsee_the2nd Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Why will this never happen? If its worth doing its probably not going to be easy Y'know , what is the juniors aversion to joining up? Is it that the current leagues (by that I mean what they can realistically expect to b promoted to) aren't worth their while? Would they change their tune if the current spfl 2 and ll/hl was a better structure/ better quality? To me something is wrong if stronger teams are not interested in progression and some better players are favouring the over higher levels, it can't be doing our game any favours? Do they just want a local thing for local people? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilky1878 Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Why will this never happen? If its worth doing its probably not going to be easy Y'know , what is the juniors aversion to joining up? Is it that the current leagues (by that I mean what they can realistically expect to b promoted to) aren't worth their while? Would they change their tune if the current spfl 2 and ll/hl was a better structure/ better quality? To me something is wrong if stronger teams are not interested in progression and some better players are favouring the over higher levels, it can't be doing our game any favours? Do they just want a local thing for local people? Basically for most teams spfl league 2 isn't lucrative. They'd lose money in that league each year. Infact they'd need to he promoted to league 1/championship to either make money/break even and even there, there is no guarantee. So why jump ship from somewhere cosy to somewhere that could possibly cost them existence. They also want to go from nation wide leagues to an East/West split in the Lowland catchment (I think). So basically reconstruction suits alot of nationwide teams as it stops things getting stale, it benefits junior teams and the pyramid as a whole as they would be more likely to join, it benefits the regional teams already in the pyramid as less promotions are needed if you go to something like I proposed of less national leagues. Essentially reconstruction would benefit the whole game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Basically for most teams spfl league 2 isn't lucrative. They'd lose money in that league each year. Infact they'd need to he promoted to league 1/championship to either make money/break even and even there, there is no guarantee. Calling bullshit on that one, under no circumstances should the additional travel cost more than the increased income, and to suggest that championship income vs expenditure( not inc players wages becouse that would be silly) is anything close to juniors is utterly laughable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effeffsee_the2nd Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Basically for most teams spfl league 2 isn't lucrative. They'd lose money in that league each year. Infact they'd need to he promoted to league 1/championship to either make money/break even and even there, there is no guarantee. So why jump ship from somewhere cosy to somewhere that could possibly cost them existence. They also want to go from nation wide leagues to an East/West split in the Lowland catchment (I think). So basically reconstruction suits alot of nationwide teams as it stops things getting stale, it benefits junior teams and the pyramid as a whole as they would be more likely to join, it benefits the regional teams already in the pyramid as less promotions are needed if you go to something like I proposed of less national leagues. Essentially reconstruction would benefit the whole game. Aye I kinda get that but then if the pyramid WAS split 3 ways like the juniors are at the moment would it not be more appealing to them to play along side their current rivals and the best non league sides in the area ? the stumbling block would be that you can't relay have 3 way relegation from the national league, you'd have to have a 2 way split before the national, could it then make more sense to only have 2 tires of nationwide then north and south below that then east west north below that? A bit like Englands one but with less levels between top and regional? Again it doesn't relay solve the problem of having a strong south and a weak north but its a start. If all divisions were of 16 or 18 teams then a half decent junior sides would only be 2 promotions away from the current championship level 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilky1878 Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Calling bullshit on that one, under no circumstances should the additional travel cost more than the increased income, and to suggest that championship income vs expenditure( not inc players wages becouse that would be silly) is anything close to juniors is utterly laughable. What additional revenue though? Some junior clubs have similar support to some league two clubs. And with the championship it is more likely that they'd make more money but as I said there is no guarantee, every time they go up if they want to be competitive the budget would also have to be raised. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilky1878 Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Aye I kinda get that but then if the pyramid WAS split 3 ways like the juniors are at the moment would it not be more appealing to them to play along side their current rivals and the best non league sides in the area ? the stumbling block would be that you can't relay have 3 way relegation from the national league, you'd have to have a 2 way split before the national, could it then make more sense to only have 2 tires of nationwide then north and south below that then east west north below that? A bit like Englands one but with less levels between top and regional? Again it doesn't relay solve the problem of having a strong south and a weak north but its a start. If all divisions were of 16 or 18 teams then a half decent junior sides would only be 2 promotions away from the current championship level Further up the page I outlayed my preferred 16-16-10 LL/HL EOS/SOS. One less national tier but all current national teams, for a season at least until relegation kicks in, get to keep their national status, then goes into a two way split and gets an East west the tier below that. Less promotions to reach a higher level and for the most part the season would be less stale. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
effeffsee_the2nd Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Fair enough but why stick with a 10 team tire 3? Just thinking it could be more appealing if the long distance away games only need to be once a season. The other question which I can't figure out even after reading the English system is - what happens when all the teams in the relegation zone are from the same region? Which means teams would have to play out with their area or divisions are imbalanced 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Burton Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Calling bullshit on that one, under no circumstances should the additional travel cost more than the increased income, and to suggest that championship income vs expenditure( not inc players wages becouse that would be silly) is anything close to juniors is utterly laughable. Of course it's bullshit, if it was not economically feasible for clubs in league two then reconstruction would have taken place years ago. Clyde have cleared our debts of 250k with the majority being paid off while we were in league two. The clubs in our league generally post a profit each season. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilky1878 Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 Fair enough but why stick with a 10 team tire 3? Just thinking it could be more appealing if the long distance away games only need to be once a season. The other question which I can't figure out even after reading the English system is - what happens when all the teams in the relegation zone are from the same region? Which means teams would have to play out with their area or divisions are imbalanced The 10 team tier 3 was more a stepping stone type league. A last chance for national teams to prove they deserve to be in a national league and a chance for regional teams to make a step up into a smaller league. If you look at the 10 team leagues a few wins can generally change the whole table at times. The ten team league was left in for that reason. I'm pretty sure for the English pyramid there is a limit for teams. So for example anything between 14-18 teams (just a random number) and if a league falls outwith that number borders are slightly changed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 What additional revenue though? Some junior clubs have similar support to some league two clubs. And with the championship it is more likely that they'd make more money but as I said there is no guarantee, every time they go up if they want to be competitive the budget would also have to be raised. IIRC about 50k in the bank for finishing 10th in league 2 and first round defeats in all the cups, more than enough for a bus to elgin. You say the budget must be raised to be competitive but generally thats not what clubs do, for the most part they calculate what they can afford and spend it, if its not enough then they will fail to attract good enough players, lose games and get relegated, they don't go bust. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowdenbeath Posted November 26, 2015 Share Posted November 26, 2015 What additional revenue though? Some junior clubs have similar support to some league two clubs. And with the championship it is more likely that they'd make more money but as I said there is no guarantee, every time they go up if they want to be competitive the budget would also have to be raised. You would get more money through sponsorship being the bottom side in the SPFL than you would get playing in any of the non leagues. Also you would have at least one League Cup game and one Petrofac Cup game and the sponsorship money which goes along with that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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