Change

[clash city rocker]

Especially if it doesn't even try.......

The reinstatement rule affects every single junior club in a negative way...so why is it still active ?

Years upon years clubs/fans have complained but shit all is done about it...clubs still pay the fee or take a chance, get caught,get fined lose points... Insane.

[Burnie_man]

The reinstatement rule affects every single junior club in a negative way...so why is it still active ?

Years upon years clubs/fans have complained but shit all is done about it...clubs still pay the fee or take a chance, get caught,get fined lose points... Insane.

Indeed, but it requires a club to propose its abolition in the knowledge that there is enough clubs in favour to push it through.

That said, is blows roughly a £15k hole in the SJFA finances and the heid yins wont be happy.

It needs a club with a bit of baws to run with it starting now, and gather the support. I suspect it should be straightforward to get 85 votes together to get rid of it.

[clash city rocker]

Take a look about lots of junior grounds and you will see subtle little improvements at lots of them , yes lots are common sense but lots are also aiming to comply and trust me once one club is brave enough to break away from our terribly run grade you will see lots of others doing the same.

Some people think it's pie in the sky but these will be the same people who laughed off the idea of amalgamated leagues which we have now when everything was regional in terms of only Ayrshire / central leagues back in the day.

Yer man at Beith and Allan McLuckie were the guys that pushed for amalgamated leagues. McLuckie actually put forward a proposal for an all in Scottish junior league which was defeated and it was him that advocated the strange 3 division Ayrshire league that was in competition the season before the supers began. They also got rid of one of the oldest junior cups.. The Ayrshire Junior Challenge Cup also the Irvine and District Cup yet retained the fucking Ardagh.

[clash city rocker]

Indeed, but it requires a club to propose its abolition in the knowledge that there is enough clubs in favour to push it through.

That said, is blows roughly a £15k hole in the SJFA finances and the heid yins wont be happy.

It needs a club with a bit of baws to run with it starting now, and gather the support. I suspect it should be straightforward to get 85 votes together to get rid of it.

Exactly...so easy to get enough banking but would that backing still be there when it came to the actual vote. Clubs get influenced from above.

[Burnie_man]

Exactly...so easy to get enough banking but would that backing still be there when it came to the actual vote. Clubs get influenced from above.

They do, but if its the right thing to do (and it is) and they have enough time to consider it, by and large they'll stick to their guns.

[Hertha/BJFC1938]

Yer man at Beith and Allan McLuckie were the guys that pushed for amalgamated leagues. McLuckie actually put forward a proposal for an all in Scottish junior league which was defeated and it was him that advocated the strange 3 division Ayrshire league that was in competition the season before the supers began. They also got rid of one of the oldest junior cups.. The Ayrshire Junior Challenge Cup also the Irvine and District Cup yet retained the fucking Ardagh.

And i think Beith got relegated as a direct consequence of the change so nobody can say it was selfish and out of self interest .

No doubt the angry man from largs will be on here soon commenting as he's still never forgiven the instigators of change .

[clash city rocker]

And i think Beith got relegated as a direct consequence of the change so nobody can say it was selfish and out of self interest .

No doubt the angry man from largs will be on here soon commenting as he's still never forgiven the instigators of change .

Na Beith were not in the 7 team first division...they finished 4th in the 2nd and beat Dalry for a place in the new Super 1st. Had they finished 5th it would have been the District for them.The top 6 from the 1st division qualified for Super league. Lugar were bottom of 7 team 1st and lost to Troon in play off so they were relegated from Ayrshire 1st to new Ayrshire District missing out new Super 1st altogether... effectively being relegated 2 divisions.

[honestly united]

Junior clubs will never accept being "bolted on" below the LL, that's almost a certainty.

Why not? it would be the ideal situation for all involved. Those in the Juniors that want to stay in the own leagues, could stay in West & East Region leagues, as now, and those who wanted to progress could take the chance of promotion into the Lowland League to fight it out for promotion to the National Leagues.

That way those that wanted to stay in local competition could, those that wanted to advance could, and it would be minimal impact on all involved. The SJFA should come out and support it and state they want to run all football under the LL and try and get the SoS and EoS to merge into their structure, and be advocating and East and West feeder leagues under the LL, which then split further under the top league, however West could bolt the SoS league at similar level to Ayrshire and Central Region, and the East it's a bit more tricky as there would need to be a merger of the EoS with the East Juniors but its not insurmountable.

In the North the North Juniors could just fit in under the HFL as a second division.

To be fair this thread has been a bit of an eye opener as it is beginning to look like the fans in the juniors are slowly coming round to the idea of joining in with the rest of the non league teams in one unified structure rather than being a separate entity altogether

[Bankies Alive]

The main stumbling block to your argument is that the SFA are insisting on compulsory promotion from the Juniors.

They would of course need to have the correct number of shower heads in their dressing rooms right enough.........

[The Old Northerner]

The main stumbling block to your argument is that the SFA are insisting on compulsory promotion from the Juniors.

They would of course need to have the correct number of shower heads in their dressing rooms right enough.........

It's compulsory promotion from the LL/HL for sure. Given that the idea of bolting the Juniors under the LL hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, been discussed other than on here, I'd say that compulsion into the LL from below is an open question. And there *does* need to be a level where clubs can't be compelled to move up a league

[HTG]

Why not? it would be the ideal situation for all involved. Those in the Juniors that want to stay in the own leagues, could stay in West & East Region leagues, as now, and those who wanted to progress could take the chance of promotion into the Lowland League to fight it out for promotion to the National Leagues.

There is zero chance that the Junior fraternity will accept being bolted on underneath the Lowland League. The bigger clubs simply wouldn't accept that as it would be too much loss of face. Now, in practical terms, they're already below the Lowland League and we can see that from the way that match officials are allocated where top junior teams need to do without assistants at games like Bonnyrigg v Linlithgow whilst Whitehill v Threave would be fully covered.

But it's just not going to be acceptable to those who run the Junior game to start from a league below and see themselves perhaps taking 4 seasons to secure the sort of balance that would render the LL as the premier structure.

There isn't an easy answer and I don't think any Lowland solution should be taken in isolation without asking the question about the Highland League. There's some utter shite lurking around the depths of the Highland League but a complete lack of competition in that part of the country makes a laughing stock of Tier 5 when you've got the likes of Rothes, Strathspey or Fort William perennially sitting above teams like Talbot, Irvine Meadow, Pollok or Linlithgow. The bottom teams in the HFL would get humped in the junior bottom divisions in my view.

I know I keep repeating the same message ad nauseam but Lowland and Highland just doesn't work from a demographic prespective and the only way it can at least have an appearance of working is if you shut out most of the teams in the south and then it looks balanced.

Given that the SPFL won't countenance a 3 region solution, I don't know what the answer is but that's actually where the pyramid problem starts - not with the attitude of the juniors (which isn't helpful but they do actually have the right regional model). The SPFL solution was another National Conference to cushion the blow for its shitiest teams when they fell out the bottom. That would be insane. It's bad enough that SPFL2 teams might need to trek to Inverness or Elgin but Auchinleck/Gretna to Brora for a league match is just absolutely nuts.

So, unless there is a desire for a root and branch review, the LL/HFL sub structure will never actually be an optimum solution and the "aye but we need to make it work" brigade - whilst right on the basis of what's there - will never be able to satisfy folk like me that that's enough. "We need to make it work" is not good enough. The SFA should be getting their balls chewed every day about the demographic situation.

[Hertha/BJFC1938]

You need to separate this place from reality. The reality is the bulk of junior supporters are happy with what they are.

Probably more so that the bulk of junior supporters are petrified of any sort of change .

[lithgierose]

Probably more so that the bulk of junior supporters are petrified of any sort of change .

this.

[VodkaTap]

There is zero chance that the Junior fraternity will accept being bolted on underneath the Lowland League. The bigger clubs simply wouldn't accept that as it would be too much loss of face. Now, in practical terms, they're already below the Lowland League and we can see that from the way that match officials are allocated where top junior teams need to do without assistants at games like Bonnyrigg v Linlithgow whilst Whitehill v Threave would be fully covered.

But it's just not going to be acceptable to those who run the Junior game to start from a league below and see themselves perhaps taking 4 seasons to secure the sort of balance that would render the LL as the premier structure.

There isn't an easy answer and I don't think any Lowland solution should be taken in isolation without asking the question about the Highland League. There's some utter shite lurking around the depths of the Highland League but a complete lack of competition in that part of the country makes a laughing stock of Tier 5 when you've got the likes of Rothes, Strathspey or Fort William perennially sitting above teams like Talbot, Irvine Meadow, Pollok or Linlithgow. The bottom teams in the HFL would get humped in the junior bottom divisions in my view.

I know I keep repeating the same message ad nauseam but Lowland and Highland just doesn't work from a demographic prespective and the only way it can at least have an appearance of working is if you shut out most of the teams in the south and then it looks balanced.

Given that the SPFL won't countenance a 3 region solution, I don't know what the answer is but that's actually where the pyramid problem starts - not with the attitude of the juniors (which isn't helpful but they do actually have the right regional model). The SPFL solution was another National Conference to cushion the blow for its shitiest teams when they fell out the bottom. That would be insane. It's bad enough that SPFL2 teams might need to trek to Inverness or Elgin but Auchinleck/Gretna to Brora for a league match is just absolutely nuts.

So, unless there is a desire for a root and branch review, the LL/HFL sub structure will never actually be an optimum solution and the "aye but we need to make it work" brigade - whilst right on the basis of what's there - will never be able to satisfy folk like me that that's enough. "We need to make it work" is not good enough. The SFA should be getting their balls chewed every day about the demographic situation.

I have followed this thread with great interest and there has been a lot of mature debate for a topic that has degenerated into entrenched positions in the past.

The simple fact is that there is a distinct difference, as recognised by the SFA, between the LL & the SJFA.

The LL is administered by the Professional board whereas the SJFA are administered by the Non Professional Board.

I would reckon that for the majority of junior teams they would regard the non professional board as the appropriate jurisdiction for them.

The problem would be for those clubs who rightly regard themselves as at least on a par with those teams in the LL.

If the ambitious junior teams want to progress to the next level up, by this I mean a level up as regarded by the SFA, then the only practical solution would be creation of a LL2 and this could allow the time to obtain the entry level licence needed.

The SJFA should also incorporate both the SOS & the EOS into their structures for administrative purposes, whether that as 4 regions or 3 if an amalgamation in the east could be achieved.

[HTG]

You should still have a link though. Managing through different boards should not mean there is any form of barrier.

[parsforlife]

I know I keep repeating the same message ad nauseam but Lowland and Highland just doesn't work from a demographic prespective and the only way it can at least have an appearance of working is if you shut out most of the teams in the south and then it looks balanced.

Given that the SPFL won't countenance a 3 region solution, I don't know what the answer is but that's actually where the pyramid problem starts - not with the attitude of the juniors (which isn't helpful but they do actually have the right regional model). The SPFL solution was another National Conference to cushion the blow for its shitiest teams when they fell out the bottom. That would be insane. It's bad enough that SPFL2 teams might need to trek to Inverness or Elgin but Auchinleck/Gretna to Brora for a league match is just absolutely nuts.

The 3 region solution can't reasonabley be taken to the sfa without being able to show an imbalance of licenced teams.

As it stands their isn't enough teams that meet criteria to fill 2 tier 5 leagues from the current lowland region. IIRC if all the clubs who have shown interest in getting licenced do so then we will be looking at an imbalance, progress in the number of licenced clubs looks good and maybe in 5 years time we can look at a split of the region.

[Burnie_man]

The simple fact is that there is a distinct difference, as recognised by the SFA, between the LL & the SJFA.

The LL is administered by the Professional board whereas the SJFA are administered by the Non Professional Board.

Another artificial barrier, this time created by the SFA. Fort William and BSC Glasgow are deemed professional, but Linlithgow Rose and Auchinleck Talbot are deemed non-professional? It really is a crock of sh*te.

As HTG touched on, it’s difficult to see any solution. The SFA have their pyramid and probably won’t be interested in an overhaul to LL East and LL West. The SPFL won’t entertain anything more than a two region system. The SJFA won’t entertain anything less than an equal standing with the LL. The LL clubs are quite happy with the Juniors remaining outside.

How this ever changes, I don’t know, but there is no one single Association or club who you can point the finger of blame at, they are all culpable for this dugs dinner.

[HTG]

The 3 region solution can't reasonabley be taken to the sfa without being able to show an imbalance of licenced teams.

As it stands their isn't enough teams that meet criteria to fill 2 tier 5 leagues from the current lowland region. IIRC if all the clubs who have shown interest in getting licenced do so then we will be looking at an imbalance, progress in the number of licenced clubs looks good and maybe in 5 years time we can look at a split of the region.

I completely agree there is currently a lack of teams but if the sfa allocated 2 seasons for clubs in both East and West to get themselves licenced then they could create the third strand. Teams like mine along with the likes of Bo'ness, Sauchie, Camelon could go in either direction. Then you could really start to see a merit based pyramid in the south which would show the HFL up as something of an empty house in terms of depth although the top clubs are clearly strong.

[parsforlife]

No chance of a 2 years grace period. The spfl(rightly) wouldn't accept relegation into unlicensed leagues.

[HTG]

No chance of a 2 years grace period. The spfl(rightly) wouldn't accept relegation into unlicensed leagues.

In which case carry on with current set up and allow the 2 years to ensure the thing is fit for purpose. If not then create LL2 from the newly licenced clubs along with those who still have aspirations.