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After the cream of West juniors, and possibly junior football, Auchinleck being humbled again by a team from the LL. Is there any change to thoughts of teams making the leap to this league? The talk before was no as the standard is poorer but is this really the case now?

From memory I'm sure teams in the west who expressed interest where Arthurlie, Rob Roy, Clydebank, Rossvale and St.Rochs. What about clubs with new facilities like Benburb, Renfrew, Ashfield and possibly Gartcairn. I'm also sure I read Rutherglen had now gathered local amateur and youth teams to come under their banner, possibly paving a pathway towards this too. Does anyone know the position of these clubs now?

I'm not really up to speed with the East and North regions so forgive me for lack of questions on these but feel free to add.

Edited by ollyj

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After the cream of West juniors, and possibly junior football, Auchinleck being humbled again by a team from the LL. Is there any change to thoughts of teams making the leap to this league? The talk before was no as the standard is poorer but is this really the case now?

From memory I'm sure teams in the west who expressed interest where Arthurlie, Rob Roy, Clydebank, Rossvale and St.Rochs. What about clubs with new facilities like Benburb, Renfrew, Ashfield and possibly Gartcairn. I'm also sure I read Rutherglen had now gathered local amateur and youth teams to come under their banner, possibly paving a pathway towards this too. Does anyone know the position of these clubs now?

I'm not really up to speed with the East and North regions so forgive me for lack of questions on these but feel free to add.

You may well be correct. The SJFA is slowly moving towards abolishing the junior game as we know it. Their continued method is failing to face up to the problems facing the junior game, and continuing operate on the 19th/20th century outmoded set up. This will drive the top clubs into the established lower leagues where the main aim is to draw Rangers or Celtic away and into a commercial safety for a few years. Down the scale many existing junior clubs will disappear or surface in the amateur status.

Would be interesting to see attendance figures on Saturdays Scottish ties. Few apart from Pollok would be paying the SJFA 15% gate tax. Around 12 games victims I presume of the weather. May well be cleared by Christmas with a bit of luck.

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What about the position of the fans and players of the clubs you mentioned, how many would want it with the added travel involved. A lot of guys play junior rather than senior as the travelling suits better when working full-time given its all relatively local even in the super leagues, hell of a lot of extra travel in the LL.

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What about the position of the fans and players of the clubs you mentioned, how many would want it with the added travel involved. A lot of guys play junior rather than senior as the travelling suits better when working full-time given its all relatively local even in the super leagues, hell of a lot of extra travel in the LL.

Couldn't agree more, Fab. There are many things to consider before pressing any panic buttons.

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I'm not sure the travelling issue should be played on so much. Travelling from Ayrshire to say Linlithgow these days is a simple drive, it's motorway the whole way with no breaks. For say Hurlford, Meadow etc to travel to Linlithgow takes a maximum 1 hour 20 mins by bus, it's hardly a mammoth trek! Plus a lot of the boys live in Glasgow so it's even less of a journey then.

It's different in the seniors where there is no regional split so overnight stays or 7/8 hour return journeys every second week can be the norm. I would say that anything within a 2 hour drive each way is a reasonable journey to play Semi Pro football, the rugby guys do it week in week out!

These kind of excuses is what holds Scottish football back. Look at English football in the lower semi pro leagues. Midweek games and 6 hour round trips are the norm, this is what enables the pyramid to work and operate! I would be delighted for us as a club to explore it giving the club, it's supporters and it's young players the opportunity to play at the highest level possible in our country.

By wanting to limit horizons by playing within a 45 minute radius of your house can only limit your potential as a club or a player. More importantly it will limit the potential of Scottish football to fully integrate and enable an equitable distribution of funding through the ranks.

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Rugby union has 46 clubs playing nationwide. I noticed that Orkney RFC hosted Dumfries RFC at the weekend.

Did they hang about for the buffet?

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Couldn't agree more, Fab. There are many things to consider before pressing any panic buttons.

At the risk of repeating old arguments, clubs that don't want the travel burden should prepare themselves for life at a level where football is regionalised to the extent they are comfortable with. Those who are content to travel a wee bit further need not or should not be held back because their immediate current rivals don't fancy it.

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I'm not sure the travelling issue should be played on so much. Travelling from Ayrshire to say Linlithgow these days is a simple drive, it's motorway the whole way with no breaks. For say Hurlford, Meadow etc to travel to Linlithgow takes a maximum 1 hour 20 mins by bus, it's hardly a mammoth trek! Plus a lot of the boys live in Glasgow so it's even less of a journey then.

It's different in the seniors where there is no regional split so overnight stays or 7/8 hour return journeys every second week can be the norm. I would say that anything within a 2 hour drive each way is a reasonable journey to play Semi Pro football, the rugby guys do it week in week out!

These kind of excuses is what holds Scottish football back. Look at English football in the lower semi pro leagues. Midweek games and 6 hour round trips are the norm, this is what enables the pyramid to work and operate! I would be delighted for us as a club to explore it giving the club, it's supporters and it's young players the opportunity to play at the highest level possible in our country.

By wanting to limit horizons by playing within a 45 minute radius of your house can only limit your potential as a club or a player. More importantly it will limit the potential of Scottish football to fully integrate and enable an equitable distribution of funding through the ranks.

Excellent post and totally agree.

It's about time the juniors got out their comfy wee shell and very soon.

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To be fair, over in the East the top two divisions can involve some fair travel distances. I don't think travel is a barrier to clubs wanting/not wanting to take part in LL, at least in the East anyway.

Anyway, aren't there enough threads on the go about this?

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This will drive the top clubs into the established lower leagues where the main aim is to draw Rangers or Celtic away

This is a load of shite.

Can people please stop saying this.

Cheers.

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Excellent post and totally agree.

It's about time the juniors got out their comfy wee shell and very soon.

Just out of curiosity how many fans do you think Beith would take to a league game in Dundee or whatever ?. When the super leagues started the crowds were pretty good initially but soon dropped off. Ladesides best gates are always Beith, Talbot, Cumnock etc, they would no doubt still be there but its difficult enough getting in punters against other West clubs never mind Dundee North End or somebody. So you think Beith would find it sustainable.

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Aww man hate to see folk post about Talbot being humbled but the reality is we are getting left behind to these LL teams who are really not that better. We need to address the matter by getting a shake up of the whole system from top to bottom. Am all for it and if it means my team having to start at the lowest tier then so be it.

Edited by Talbot Bing

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Just out of curiosity how many fans do you think Beith would take to a league game in Dundee or whatever ?. When the super leagues started the crowds were pretty good initially but soon dropped off. Ladesides best gates are always Beith, Talbot, Cumnock etc, they would no doubt still be there but its difficult enough getting in punters against other West clubs never mind Dundee North End or somebody. So you think Beith would find it sustainable.

I just feel that we always give the far travel issues far too much respect in terms of thinking it as we operate at the moment mate rather than how it would operate if we all got it together with floodlight grounds - hence no more 1830 kick offs - and 1945 kick offs just like the seniors .

If we all collectively chased a pyramid structure - not the way the LL is at the moment - but more so in the top junior clubs joining the top / most forward thinking LL clubs and into a structure that gives us a proper pyramid platform then it would be great for me .

We could still share local rivalry whilst trying to kick on to our maximum level . :)

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I just feel that we always give the far travel issues far too much respect in terms of thinking it as we operate at the moment mate rather than how it would operate if we all got it together with floodlight grounds - hence no more 1830 kick offs - and 1945 kick offs just like the seniors .

If we all collectively chased a pyramid structure - not the way the LL is at the moment - but more so in the top junior clubs joining the top / most forward thinking LL clubs and into a structure that gives us a proper pyramid platform then it would be great for me .

We could still share local rivalry whilst trying to kick on to our maximum level . :)

Aye am no against a pyramid but a don't think too many junior committees, your included, would vote to take the plunge as things stand. In fact no decision should ever be made without massive consultation with supporters and sponsors etc.

To be honest the chances of Beith or Ladeside ever winning a play off to get promoted into Division 3 or whatever its called noo is nope chance, struggle to compete with the top junior sides as it is fans would just have to get used to no picking up a wee trophy every blue moon and losing a few more games than usual.

Would get rid of the Ardagh Cup though so that's a plus.

Fear though that unless forced the vast majority of junior clubs will resist, its a big decision to make and a lot of guys running the clubs would need big baws to make it...nobody ever wants to make a decision that could perhap turn out to be a disaster in the long run. Preservation is a big word in junior fitba.

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I'm not sure the travelling issue should be played on so much. Travelling from Ayrshire to say Linlithgow these days is a simple drive, it's motorway the whole way with no breaks. For say Hurlford, Meadow etc to travel to Linlithgow takes a maximum 1 hour 20 mins by bus, it's hardly a mammoth trek! Plus a lot of the boys live in Glasgow so it's even less of a journey then.

It's different in the seniors where there is no regional split so overnight stays or 7/8 hour return journeys every second week can be the norm. I would say that anything within a 2 hour drive each way is a reasonable journey to play Semi Pro football, the rugby guys do it week in week out!

These kind of excuses is what holds Scottish football back. Look at English football in the lower semi pro leagues. Midweek games and 6 hour round trips are the norm, this is what enables the pyramid to work and operate! I would be delighted for us as a club to explore it giving the club, it's supporters and it's young players the opportunity to play at the highest level possible in our country.

By wanting to limit horizons by playing within a 45 minute radius of your house can only limit your potential as a club or a player. More importantly it will limit the potential of Scottish football to fully integrate and enable an equitable distribution of funding through the ranks.

The reason I brought up the travel issue is not only did it stopped me going back senior when I got the offer in my early 30s as the away days and midweek games were not sustainable in my current occupation but one of my friends playing lowland league at present is struggling with the same thing and likely to go back junior next season. I'm not saying every player is in that boat but then not every player has a cushy 8-4 Mon-Fri job, that's why I asked whats the opinion of the fans, and especially the players on here, if reality struck and their team joined the LL as it is now would it really suit their work/family life balance.

If the whole thing was properly revamped to include all junior leagues in a proper pyramid system as in England then that may make a difference but I am asking with regards the current LL set up as that's all we have right now!!

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You may well be correct. The SJFA is slowly moving towards abolishing the junior game as we know it. Their continued method is failing to face up to the problems facing the junior game, and continuing operate on the 19th/20th century outmoded set up. This will drive the top clubs into the established lower leagues where the main aim is to draw Rangers or Celtic away and into a commercial safety for a few years. Down the scale many existing junior clubs will disappear or surface in the amateur status.

Would be interesting to see attendance figures on Saturdays Scottish ties. Few apart from Pollok would be paying the SJFA 15% gate tax. Around 12 games victims I presume of the weather. May well be cleared by Christmas with a bit of luck.

Interesting post, there's already been a quieter culling of Junior in the past from those who started up and didn't last a decade to the Glasgow disappearance of Junior teams with housing redevelopment.

Bridgeton Waverley

Strathclyde

Parkhead

Shawfield

Maryhill Harp

Duntocher Hibs

Three Junior teams outside the door of Celtic Park plus Shettleston and Vale of Clyde.

Two Junior teams outside Shawfield.

I don't think it even worked in the 1950s, crowd wise.

Once asked what became of the defunct Junior teams support, did they go somewhere else when their teams disappeared.

"What support" was the answer.

Shawfield Juniors going defunct within a couple of years of a Junior Cup final was a strange one.

Their ground was still in use for the next 25 years.

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Part of the organisational thing could be that SJFA have the better regional breakdown (East/North/West, and that again subdividing e.g. Ayrshire/Central in the West). This may need some tinkering in the Angus area.

This is a far superior structure than the straight North/South split of the HFL/LL..

Almost needs the SFA/SPFL to accept the structure of a different organisation (the SJFA), and take it on before I see any major moves from Junior teams.

A triangular tier under the the SPFL would be better and should allow for promotion from below, and these regions to subdivide as they see best.

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Shawfield Juniors went out of business before my time as a junior fan, but you could walk from Rutherglen Glencairn's old ground on Glasgow Road to Shawfield Juniors' old ground in five minutes.

When you consider the number of junior teams there were around at the time, it makes it all the more remarkable that two teams so close met in the Scottish Junior Cup Final in 1939.

1939%20Scottish%20Junior%20Cup%20Final%2

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Part of the organisational thing could be that SJFA have the better regional breakdown (East/North/West, and that again subdividing e.g. Ayrshire/Central in the West). This may need some tinkering in the Angus area.

This is a far superior structure than the straight North/South split of the HFL/LL..

Almost needs the SFA/SPFL to accept the structure of a different organisation (the SJFA), and take it on before I see any major moves from Junior teams.

A triangular tier under the the SPFL would be better and should allow for promotion from below, and these regions to subdivide as they see best.

The SPFL teams won't wear it - that much is already clear hence the 2 way split. The 2 way split just doesn't work if the South incorporates the junior teams. The top league would be hellish competitive as would its feeders whilst up north you still have teams like Rothes or Strathspey in the league below the SPFL. That's just not right.

There may need to be a national conference to appease the SPFL and then a 3 way split.

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