HTG Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 I have always found the 'not enough time' line to be questionable. The prospect of a lowland league had been ongoing well before January 2013, if the junior clubs were ignoring this then can they really blame others? Alot of the time the suggestions are the juniors wanted to dictate everything, their structure, their timescale, their entry requirements, all the while not sufficiently engaging in discussions. You can blame that on the likes of Johnston if you want, but he is the guy you put forward on your behalf. Just because the junior game moves slowly doesn't mean everyone should have slowed down so you could keep up. Regardless the set-up is as it is and looks very unlikely to change, the junior game either needs to engage with it directly or alternatively have a significant block of licenced clubs (15ish) who can put themselves forward as a reason to move towards a 3-region set-up. I can't agree with this. It took a full year of negotiation at the top end of the SPFL to secure ... a play off space and change of name to SPFL. After the SPFL had agreed to the play off at the bottom there were a matter of weeks available to apply for the LL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillonearth Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 If we do eventually get a true pyramid system in Scotland will there be a statue erected to Pete Smythe? Think they're selling them already... He seems to have shut down his site - someone's set up this one though which is similar, without the added editorialising. https://scottishfootballfixtures.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 I have always found the 'not enough time' line to be questionable. The prospect of a lowland league had been ongoing well before January 2013, if the junior clubs were ignoring this then can they really blame others? Alot of the time the suggestions are the juniors wanted to dictate everything, their structure, their timescale, their entry requirements, all the while not sufficiently engaging in discussions. You can blame that on the likes of Johnston if you want, but he is the guy you put forward on your behalf. Just because the junior game moves slowly doesn't mean everyone should have slowed down so you could keep up. Regardless the set-up is as it is and looks very unlikely to change, the junior game either needs to engage with it directly or alternatively have a significant block of licenced clubs (15ish) who can put themselves forward as a reason to move towards a 3-region set-up. Well the inconvenient fact is that the 6 week timeline is entirely accurate, there was talk of delaying it until the season after which would have made complete sense, but Spartans and others pushed for it to be introduced (despite there being no promotion available, why the haste, make up your own mind on that). You don’t change 120 years of history in 6 weeks. The licensing details were at best sketchy, and the route back to the Juniors should you finish bottom was non-existent (it still is). The SJFA take a massive slice of the blame for this situation, but then so do the SFA for allowing certain clubs to set the agenda once the agreement with the SPFL was in place, they had their “pyramid” in name at least and the details were immaterial. If the SFA were genuinely interested in a pyramid that encompassed everyone, they would have put a whole lot more effort directly into engaging with the Junior clubs themselves, not TJ & Co. They could have allowed 12 months notice of the LL starting, they then would have had Junior clubs on board without a doubt. They didn’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clash city rocker Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Well the inconvenient fact is that the 6 week timeline is entirely accurate, there was talk of delaying it until the season after which would have made complete sense, but Spartans and others pushed for it to be introduced (despite there being no promotion available, why the haste, make up your own mind on that). You dont change 120 years of history in 6 weeks. The licensing details were at best sketchy, and the route back to the Juniors should you finish bottom was non-existent (it still is). The SJFA take a massive slice of the blame for this situation, but then so do the SFA for allowing certain clubs to set the agenda once the agreement with the SPFL was in place, they had their pyramid in name at least and the details were immaterial. If the SFA were genuinely interested in a pyramid that encompassed everyone, they would have put a whole lot more effort directly into engaging with the Junior clubs themselves, not TJ & Co. They would have allowed 12 months notice of the LL starting. They then would have had Junior clubs on board without a doubt. They didnt. You just can't argue with this. The vast majority of junior fans were unaware of what was happening and when club committees were asked the response was they were waiting on details. It was simply not discussed on the terraces at junior games as there really was nothing to discuss...nobody knew anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Well the inconvenient fact is that the 6 week timeline is entirely accurate, . No, the application process was around 6 weeks. This is not the same as 6 weeks to make a decision and get the various sjfa stuff together. The 6 weeks stuff should have been a case of week 1 'right guys that lowland league that has been discussed is going ahead, are we in?' Week 2/3 fan meeting. Week 4 members vote Week 5+6 apply. It was known well before then that the lowland league was a realistic prospect, the junior game had plenty of time to come up its response should it get the go ahead. We can't afford to not do anything whilst waiting on certainties, nor should we move at the pace of the slowest, given the chance Johnston etc would have delayed and delayed again. 6 different bodies got themselves ready for the pyramid beginning, And here we still waiting on the 7th Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFW Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Which ever way you look at it, had the idea been viable with even a semi decent timespan for the consultation with Junior clubs does anybody realy think if the likes of Talbot, Pollok, Clydebank, Irvine Meadow (then - not now) Linlithgow, Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg and a few others had decided to throw their hats into the ring that the league would bear any resemblance to what it is today? Not decrying the LL, fact is it's the only show in town at the moment for non league clubs to progress, but there simply isn't the quality in there in depth to make it an attractive league for clbs to want to join? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenconner Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 It's doubtful that anymore than a couple of people at each Junior club know of full membership of the SFA. Ain't we all members. Actually well no, some are full members and some ain't. How many Junior clubs are full members, two??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Three, you are probably forgetting Girvan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 No, the application process was around 6 weeks. This is not the same as 6 weeks to make a decision and get the various sjfa stuff together. The 6 weeks stuff should have been a case of week 1 'right guys that lowland league that has been discussed is going ahead, are we in?' Week 2/3 fan meeting. Week 4 members vote Week 5+6 apply. It was known well before then that the lowland league was a realistic prospect, the junior game had plenty of time to come up its response should it get the go ahead. We can't afford to not do anything whilst waiting on certainties, nor should we move at the pace of the slowest, given the chance Johnston etc would have delayed and delayed again. 6 different bodies got themselves ready for the pyramid beginning, And here we still waiting on the 7th Sorry, if you think that then you're a little deluded. You have to bare in mind that very little information was being passed to Junior clubs at the time, there was no way any club could make an informed decision as hard facts were difficult to pin down (licensing requirements and relegation back to the Juniors just being two, but two major ones). The myth of £150k toilet blocks etc was allowed to fester with no clarification or guidance from the SFA beyond a few sheets of paper. Every single person involved knew that there was no way that any Junior club would or could commit in a 6 week timespan, and out of 160+ clubs, none did. However SJFA surveys over the previous couple of years showed that there were 25+ clubs who declared an interest in being part of it (think there were 27 to be entirely accuarate). Why did none of those 27 clubs apply? You're asking many Junior clubs to abandon a long tradition (whether you think the tradition is shit or not) and therefore risk the future of the club, based on loose facts and uncertainty. Any custodian of a club would be completely irresponsible doing that. The EoS and SoS clubs has absolutely nothing to lose, they barely had to do anything different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Any lack of detail compared to info eos and sos clubs had can only be blamed on junior officials. There wasn't secret meetings where the juniors were locked out the room. Yes eos and sos clubs didn't have as much risk, but that is becouse those organisations acted reasonablely, the didn't put out thinly veiled threats about clubs not being welcome back should the lowland fail nor did they set out a position where clubs couldn't enter cups. Had the sjfa done similar we would have seen junior applicants imo. Its all good blaming the sfa for not preempting the sjfa officials and working against their self interested agenda and but had they done so it would have been very dodgy. So the sjfa famously works slower than the rest of football which itself is pretty slow at progress, how long should we have waited? 20 odd years? (As in the case of complying to bosman ruling) or perhapps 50+(as the case for floodlights) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnie_man Posted October 29, 2015 Share Posted October 29, 2015 Any lack of detail compared to info eos and sos clubs had can only be blamed on junior officials. There wasn't secret meetings where the juniors were locked out the room. Yes eos and sos clubs didn't have as much risk, but that is becouse those organisations acted reasonablely, the didn't put out thinly veiled threats about clubs not being welcome back should the lowland fail nor did they set out a position where clubs couldn't enter cups. Had the sjfa done similar we would have seen junior applicants imo. Its all good blaming the sfa for not preempting the sjfa officials and working against their self interested agenda and but had they done so it would have been very dodgy. So the sjfa famously works slower than the rest of football which itself is pretty slow at progress, how long should we have waited? 20 odd years? (As in the case of complying to bosman ruling) or perhapps 50+(as the case for floodlights) Listen, I have already said above that the SJFA are major culprits in this shambles, but the SFA were just as culpable. Nobody at all comes out of this smelling of roses. As for the last sentence, a one season notice period would have been the sensible move and may have helped get individual Junior clubs on board - 27 were interested - if the SFA looked at the bigger picture, there wasn't even any play-off on offer that first season anyway so why the rush? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fan of the juniors Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Why is there even a play off? The top highland & too lowland team should play off & the winner automatically gets into the leagues end of story Until this happens it's just a self preservation society for the spfl2 teams If for talking sake we had the English system up & running here for the same length of time then your East Stirlings & Montroses of this world would have disappeared into the wilderness many moons ago Until this happens I would be inclined not to touch it with a bargepole if I was the custodian of my club A hastily thrown together league brings nothing to the table for the bigger junior clubs as it stands pure & simple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshmallo Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 Why is there even a play off? The top highland & too lowland team should play off & the winner automatically gets into the leagues end of story Until this happens it's just a self preservation society for the spfl2 teams I completely agree that there should be an automatic relegation spot. I'd even go as far as two down and the champions of LL and HL go straight up. Alternatively they could split LL into East and West then do an open draw with semis and a final involving East/West/HL/Bottom of SPFL 2 with the winner going up. The current state is better than nothing though. Also I'm just a no mark on a forum posting about this with absolutely no input. The best way to affect change, imo, would be from within. If clubs fancy they can't wait till it looks perfect, more chance of shaping the future state by being involved in the league and leading the discussion from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fan of the juniors Posted October 30, 2015 Share Posted October 30, 2015 I completely agree that there should be an automatic relegation spot. I'd even go as far as two down and the champions of LL and HL go straight up. Alternatively they could split LL into East and West then do an open draw with semis and a final involving East/West/HL/Bottom of SPFL 2 with the winner going up. The current state is better than nothing though. Also I'm just a no mark on a forum posting about this with absolutely no input. The best way to affect change, imo, would be from within. If clubs fancy they can't wait till it looks perfect, more chance of shaping the future state by being involved in the league and leading the discussion from there. The juniors has its flaws there is no doubt From lack of a fixture list to no natural progression We could pick holes in it all day tbh But a really don't see the ll as a viable alternative Yes I think that the more junior clubs that get their full license will only be good for the game as a whole with improved facilities being the obvious benefit But I know personally that I wouldn't be travelling week in week out to some of the venues that bsc etc have to go to Think that it has to be done from scratch with all semi professional clubs working together to come up with a viable alternative Mr Johnstons junior superleague isn't workable either tbh even with a fixture list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.