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edinabear

Juniors to join Lowland League?

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My view , for what it's worth, is clubs in Scotland find their own level and tend not to punch above their weight...Ross County perhaps an exception.

Is there anything fundamentally flawed about that ?

Erm no, but given the entire point of the pryamid is to allow clubs to find their level i'm not really sure what your point is.

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I've 'watched' this forum for a while, lurked if you will, with interest.

I've also played east junior in Scotland and 'toolstation' in England (8th tier or something)

What I can't quite fathom is the infatuation with the juniors!

It's on its arse, I played in the east central, with virtually no paying punters. Yes, the big teams draw a crowd but a second tier east side? Pft!

£2,000 signing on fees and cold showers cos the plumbings been pumped for years? Jesus

The sooner the lowland / EOS / SOS teams let these 'bungs in the arsehole of progress' disappear, the better.

£2,000 signing on fees and cold showers cos the plumbings been pumped for years? Jesus

Look forward to taking in a LL game over my local junior side Hill of Beath next time I'm home.

Edited by Jeek

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I've 'watched' this forum for a while, lurked if you will, with interest.

I've also played east junior in Scotland and 'toolstation' in England (8th tier or something)

What I can't quite fathom is the infatuation with the juniors!

It's on its arse, I played in the east central, with virtually no paying punters. Yes, the big teams draw a crowd but a second tier east side? Pft!

£2,000 signing on fees and cold showers cos the plumbings been pumped for years? Jesus

The sooner the lowland / EOS / SOS teams let these 'bungs in the arsehole of progress' disappear, the better.

£2,000 signing on fees and cold showers cos the plumbings been pumped for years? Jesus

Look forward to taking in a LL game over my local junior side Hill of Beath next time I'm home.

I wouldn't say it's an infatuation. It's more a recognition that on their day, some of the top junior sides are very good teams and would be a welcome addition to a pyramid structure.

You concentrated on the East Central but Linlithgow, Bo'ness, Bonnyrigg, Kelty etc can attract crowds that are in excess of anything the LL teams can muster. And that's not even including any of the big West teams.

Why wouldn't you want them in your league?

Edited by energyzone

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'the Juniors' as a range of clubs is vast. From clubs like Pollok who will get 500+ paying punters at most games to others that as has been noted are watched by no one. I remember Pollok playing at Forth a decade ago and one of the committee saying their last gate was 8. Thing is, most of the Juniors are at that level. The teams that get a crowd are mainly in the top divisions of East and West.

Interesting to see mention of Fylde. They were originally from the small town of Kirkham and were Kirkham & Wesham FC, playing on a public park in one of the North West's top amateur leagues. Shows what cash can do.

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It's not that I wouldn't want them in the league, more that let them come if they want to. I'd love to see them come over and add strength and depth to the league, this would also strengthen the EOS / SOS.

A point that often gets missed though when talking about junior crowds, is that not all crowds are big, and there's a lot of 'one man and his dug', for every kelty, there's a Steelend (or was)

Basically I think the top juniors should be welcomed, if they want to make the move, but not begged to come over. I do also think the top juniors will need the LL more and more as the league gets stronger and the LL teams can out bid the juniors.

Will be interesting to see how the first to make the move gets on, was it Haddington looking at doing it?

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I've 'watched' this forum for a while, lurked if you will, with interest.

I've also played east junior in Scotland and 'toolstation' in England (8th tier or something)

What I can't quite fathom is the infatuation with the juniors!

It's on its arse, I played in the east central, with virtually no paying punters. Yes, the big teams draw a crowd but a second tier east side? Pft!

£2,000 signing on fees and cold showers cos the plumbings been pumped for years? Jesus

The sooner the lowland / EOS / SOS teams let these 'bungs in the arsehole of progress' disappear, the better.

£2,000 signing on fees and cold showers cos the plumbings been pumped for years? Jesus

Look forward to taking in a LL game over my local junior side Hill of Beath next time I'm home.

You even edited that :huh:

I get the impression you're a bit out of touch, these days even the lowliest of clubs have decent facilities, and Hill of Beath have a very good set-up. The game isn't "on its arse", no more so than LL, EoS or SoS.

Which LL club will you go an watch in Fife?

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I edited it cos of my paragraph structure on account of me being ever so slightly inebriated at the time.

I hope that the juniors facilities have got better. When I played (as the away team at Kiers park btw, who do have a nice set up) there were a lot of teams that were far from the lithgaes and Polloks of this world. And the LL shouldn't concern themselves with the dross.

Down here (it may be different in different regions) the money for players isn't such a big thing but having decent facilities and youth set ups is also, almost every club has at least a reserve side, most often a 3rds and occasionally a 4th.

I'm not looking to fall out with anyone as I don't hate juniors in any way. It's the frustration of watching teams, like hill of Beath, sit as big fish in a small pond.

Even if it meant a year in the EoS, would lack of away crowds really hamper all that much?

As was pointed out I'm focusing on the east, but that's what I know, or knew.

Eta, I'd go through to Edinburgh obviously.

Edited by Jeek

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There was a significant level of interest in Fife in favour of abandoning the structure in the east juniors as it is now and reverting to a Fife League. I think some HOB supporters would rather see the pond grow smaller than move into an even bigger one.

There's been a half decent thread running over on the junior forum on the need for change which has a fair bit of constructive comment - more than normal anyway!

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I've always felt the solution lies in allowing teams to turn down promotion if they are happy to stay where they are. Obviously you also need the SJFA to agree about relegation into their structure. There probably needs to be a messy compromise for the juniors to come on board, but the issues could be addressed over time. The biggest obstacle to all that is the unique situation where the lower level (juniors) expect the SFA to knock on their door and try to work things out. In most other countries it has been the bottom banging on the door demanding the right to progress.

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In most countries the lowest national division is geared towards professoional clubs that can attract well over 1000 fans to their games rather than clubs like Stranraer and Stenhousemuir.

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In most countries the lowest national division is geared towards professoional clubs that can attract well over 1000 fans to their games rather than clubs like Stranraer and Stenhousemuir.

Its not right to compare national leagues as equals, the travel distances in the national league north(seriously stupid name...) is greater than what clubs playing nationally here travel for example.

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In most countries the lowest national division is geared towards professoional clubs that can attract well over 1000 fans to their games rather than clubs like Stranraer and Stenhousemuir.

Since your assertions are usually pretty much spot on I'd be looking for something a bit more scientific than 'most countries'.

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If I was going to write that message again (done quickly on my phone) I would add that I was referring mainly to those roughly comparable in population and geography to Scotland. Austria's not a bad example of how pyramids tend to work. Two divisions of 10 then 48 clubs in three regional divisions at tier three and 140 clubs in nine regional divisions at tier four:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_in_Austria

That way the top two tiers are geared towards full time clubs with crowds in the thousands:

http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/archive/aut/aveaut15.htm

and the lower tiers with smaller part-time clubs with crowds in the hundreds are kept reasonably local. If the Austrians had our sort of set up with four national tiers there would probably be people in and around Vienna droning on and on about snowy midweek nights in Vorarlberg as the reason to stick to a more local setup.

Edited by LongTimeLurker

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SFA should look at getting as many bigger Junior clubs licensed and signed up to the commitment. Let them get fat on the Scottish cup money then a few years down the line say the LL is being divided into two 16 team Leagues, East and West. Apply or your licence is revoked. Hopefully we'll end up with most applying and those left in the Juniors previously unlicensed screaming to get in.

Edited by Enigma

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If I was going to write that message again (done quickly on my phone) I would add that I was referring mainly to those roughly comparable in population and geography to Scotland. Austria's not a bad example of how pyramids tend to work. Two divisions of 10 then 48 clubs in three regional divisions at tier three and 140 clubs in nine regional divisions at tier four:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_in_Austria

That way the top two tiers are geared towards full time clubs with crowds in the thousands:

http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn/archive/aut/aveaut15.htm

and the lower tiers with smaller part-time clubs with crowds in the hundreds are kept reasonably local. If the Austrians had our sort of set up with four national tiers there would probably be people in and around Vienna droning on and on about snowy midweek nights in Vorarlberg as the reason to stick to a more local setup.

I'd be in favour of regionalisation further up than now, but the way our population is concentrated doesn't help in this regard. Edited by bendan

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SFA should look at getting as many bigger Junior clubs licensed and signed up to the commitment. Let them get fat on the Scottish cup money then a few years down the line say the LL is being divided into two 16 team Leagues, East and West. Apply or your licence is revoked. Hopefully we'll end up with most applying and those left in the Juniors previously unlicensed screaming to get in.

Teams don't get fat on Scottish Cup money. Girvan are in it every year and are still in the bottom division of the Juniors and are not particularly wealthy even for the division they are in.

To make significant money you really need to get past 4 rounds and draw a premier league team. This won't happen every year or even every 5 years.

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Girvan were doing well at super first level when they were still getting annual SFA full membership payments. The slide down to the foot of the district level came when those sort of payments started to be linked to licensing.

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Anyone know the possibility of teams such as Benburb, Ashfield, Rossvale and Renfrew making the jump? All these teams have everything in place for a licence already now with the new facilities.

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Maryhill (obviously), Petershill, Whitletts Vics, Irvine Meadow, Auchinleck Talbot, Largs, Gartcairn (with the Airdrie groundshare), Carluke, Greenock, Port Glasgow, Sauchie, Newtongrange Star, Glenrothes, Falkirk, and Broxburn are other obvious ones in facilities terms and Kirkintilloch Rob Roy will soon be another. There's a reason why the progression clause was needed to put clubs off, because a lot of junior clubs could do the entry level thing quite easily. The clubs that appear to be on the verge of actually doing it this season where entry level licensing is concerned are Haddington and Girvan.

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