Juniors to join Lowland League?

[Simplistic]

20 odd teams expressed interest when it was first set up. All was done to put them off. From that list only 1 team is now in the LL and that's cause Spartans had a Junior team.

Having been at some of the East Region and Full set up meetings, there is no way there will be a whole move towards this. I think eventually a few teams will shift over and give it a go. Once a few make a go for it, others will come. Never will all of them, no matter what the structure

[Glenconner]

When a top LL side can't beat the Candy at their own midden in a friendly game then you question what exactly is going on.

Cumbernauld Colts 0 St Roch's 1

[gaz5]

When a top LL side can't beat the Candy at their own midden in a friendly game then you question what exactly is going on.

Cumbernauld Colts 0 St Roch's 1

:-)

I would suggest that using friendly games as a yardstick for the quality of any league is more than a little foolish.

[Mr Tee]

The argument goes on and on...

Could the juniors (and EOS etc sides who don't want to go up to SPFL 2) cope if they were promoted to the SPLF 2?! Would the costs involved for upgrading facilities, competing for players, traveling much further, no local derbies etc be a step to far for them to cope with. And if so, what would they do... Fold? Apply to go back to juniors once the damage was done? It only takes a couple of years to lose die hard fans (and the next generation of fans who accompany them to games). Many many junior clubs USED to be massive within the Junior FA but are stuck languishing in the lower leagues due to a dip in form or fortune that they never recovered from.

Take Talbot or Linlithgow. Why on earth would they want to go into LL or SPFL 2 with no guarantee of ever getting any higher, or what would happen if they finish last and get relegated. If they were not winning crowds would fall, especially if the traditional rivalries they have now disappeared. No matter the level of football - fans leave/stay away when results are bad and times are tough.

They could be stuck in the LL or SPFL 2 bobbing about middle of the table for a few years and that would severely weaken them. Would the Talbot fans fancy a midweek game at Gala or Selkirk or Whitehill if it was 8th vs 9th in a meaningless game in March?!

I must say this argument could be applied to all "non league" sides like juniors, EOS, SOS etc.

It's easy to come on here and spout crap about lack of ambition, words are cheap and easy on forums. But the people running these clubs, in their spare time and for free and without much thanks, have to do what they think is correct to keep them alive and competitive as possible.

It's very disrespectful at times I think, to suggest that just because it's what some of you lot think, that everyone else should think the same, and if they don't, they must backwards. What a load of rubbish.

For what it's worth I can't ever see the juniors joining the rest, or at least 90% of the clubs will remain in the juniors. But I can see many EOS or SOS etc teams joining the juniors if a LL2 isn't in place ASAP and plans are made to save what's left.

[newcastle broon]

The argument goes on and on...

Could the juniors (and EOS etc sides who don't want to go up to SPFL 2) cope if they were promoted to the SPLF 2?! Would the costs involved for upgrading facilities, competing for players, traveling much further, no local derbies etc be a step to far for them to cope with. And if so, what would they do... Fold? Apply to go back to juniors once the damage was done? It only takes a couple of years to lose die hard fans (and the next generation of fans who accompany them to games). Many many junior clubs USED to be massive within the Junior FA but are stuck languishing in the lower leagues due to a dip in form or fortune that they never recovered from.

Take Talbot or Linlithgow. Why on earth would they want to go into LL or SPFL 2 with no guarantee of ever getting any higher, or what would happen if they finish last and get relegated. If they were not winning crowds would fall, especially if the traditional rivalries they have now disappeared. No matter the level of football - fans leave/stay away when results are bad and times are tough.

They could be stuck in the LL or SPFL 2 bobbing about middle of the table for a few years and that would severely weaken them. Would the Talbot fans fancy a midweek game at Gala or Selkirk or Whitehill if it was 8th vs 9th in a meaningless game in March?!

I must say this argument could be applied to all "non league" sides like juniors, EOS, SOS etc.

It's easy to come on here and spout crap about lack of ambition, words are cheap and easy on forums. But the people running these clubs, in their spare time and for free and without much thanks, have to do what they think is correct to keep them alive and competitive as possible.

It's very disrespectful at times I think, to suggest that just because it's what some of you lot think, that everyone else should think the same, and if they don't, they must backwards. What a load of rubbish.

For what it's worth I can't ever see the juniors joining the rest, or at least 90% of the clubs will remain in the juniors. But I can see many EOS or SOS etc teams joining the juniors if a LL2 isn't in place ASAP and plans are made to save what's left.

Paragraph 1) yet there's been mentions of super-duper leagues where it's all in from East and west what's the difference in costs in that then from say Ayrshire to Angus ?

Paragraph 2) no guarantee of going higher isn't that what a pyramid is about so you can find your level ?

Too many junior clubs as already stated like to be the big fish in small pond and going senior finding a place in the spfl is like a rabbit in headlights to some clubs.

Paragraph 3) you seem to use Talbot fans a lot (there's a lot more junior teams than Talbot) for meaningless games. Do juniors not have meaningless games in March ?

Paragraph 4) who's mentioned lack of ambition you are absolutely correct it's ALL forms of non league clubs committees who give up their time for free LL included by the way.

This is yet another silly thread in what will turn out like all the previous ones going round in circles (check out the 1st few answers to the op). Folk are fed up and bored silly of the whole situation now.

[mrman2011]

We need to have a proper Pyramid that covers all angles of Football, Clubs will then find there level, look at England some clubs refuse to get promoted until they have the facitlies and finances to cover for it this could happen in Scotland too

3 Divisions of 14

And underneath is 3 Regionals

[Mr Tee]

Paragraph 1) yet there's been mentions of super-duper leagues where it's all in from East and west what's the difference in costs in that then from say Ayrshire to Angus ? Paragraph 2) no guarantee of going higher isn't that what a pyramid is about so you can find your level ? Too many junior clubs as already stated like to be the big fish in small pond and going senior finding a place in the spfl is like a rabbit in headlights to some clubs. Paragraph 3) you seem to use Talbot fans a lot (there's a lot more junior teams than Talbot) for meaningless games. Do juniors not have meaningless games in March ? Paragraph 4) who's mentioned lack of ambition you are absolutely correct it's ALL forms of non league clubs committees who give up their time for free LL included by the way. This is yet another silly thread in what will turn out like all the previous ones going round in circles (check out the 1st few answers to the op). Folk are fed up and bored silly of the whole situation now.

1) I think the East and West Junior super league idea is a far more exciting prospect for the Junior clubs than LL or SPFL 2, and the Juniors would buy into that. The admission price for a ticket to a top junior league game is £5. The ticket price to go to East Stirling is £12, more than double the cost. Say Bonnyrigg Rose were away to East Stirling. I would be looking at £12 to get in, £8/£10 for bus, £5 for food, £2 a programme... between £20-£30 roughly?? Do you think thats vaule for money, no chance. I know clubs when the Junior cup draw is make and they get an away draw miles away and even that one trip is a problem to them due to players working before or after, cost of the bus, committee men being available etc.In reality i think the east and west combined super league will fall through due to travel costs - two or three away games to further afield on the bounce could be a problem for some clubs.

2) You say it as if "going higher" is what every club wants! Maybe having been in the Juniors for years these clubs have "found thier level"?! Just because Whitehill Welfare have wanted to join the senior ranks for a long time, does that mean everyone else should want to.... NO! But if your asking would i rather have Bonnyrigg competing with Linlithgow, Boness, Talbot, Hurlford, Irvine Meadow orcompeting with the LL or SPLF2 teams... its a no brainer i would take the junior games every time. I know thats hard for you to accept, but thats the truth for most Junior fans and clubs.

3) I used Talbot and Linlithgow becase i keep reading that once one of the "big teams" make the move, it might open the path for the rest. The point is more relevant to "smaller" Junior teams, who have even less support and things in place to move up through the levels and therefor playing teams they have no history or rivalry against, possibly further afield than they currently have to travel and for more than double the cost to the small fan base they have would mean virtually no travelling support - people quickly find other things to do on Saturdays once they stop following a team!!

I dont know if you read Davie McQueenie in the local rag saying that Easthouses had made more income in 3/4 juniors games than they had in two full seasons at EOS level. So it cant be that backwards can it.

The product the Juniors have serves them well and they would be crazy to give that up without absolute guarantees about many things. The product the LL has suits them.

Anyway your right it does go in circles. I would love to see one "non league" body in a pyramid system but i doubt it will happen anytime soon.

[LongTimeLurker]

We need to have a proper Pyramid that covers all angles of Football, Clubs will then find there level, look at England some clubs refuse to get promoted until they have the facitlies and finances to cover for it this could happen in Scotland too

3 Divisions of 14

And underneath is 3 Regionals

The key stumbling block to a pyramid is having 42 clubs playing at a national level, because it is the bottom two tiers of the national divisions that almost all junior clubs and even most Highland League clubs have almost zero interest of ever progressing into, because they prefer a regional setup for the reasons described immediately above. Two national divisions aimed at licensed full-time clubs should be sufficient for a country of Scotland's size. After that there should be a three-way east-west-north step for two tiers, then a six-way split after that for the district level of the juniors plus EoS, SoS and NCL, then ever more subdivision for each tier down once you factor in the amateurs. Chances of this ever happening are probably zilch, because of the way the SFA is structured internally in AGM voting rights terms.

[The Old Northerner]

1) I think the East and West Junior super league idea is a far more exciting prospect for the Junior clubs than LL or SPFL 2, and the Juniors would buy into that.

This has already been voted on/discussed (can't remember which) and, as far as I am aware, firmly booted into the long grass.

[The Mantis]

The argument goes on and on...

Could the juniors (and EOS etc sides who don't want to go up to SPFL 2) cope if they were promoted to the SPLF 2?! Would the costs involved for upgrading facilities, competing for players, traveling much further, no local derbies etc be a step to far for them to cope with. And if so, what would they do... Fold? Apply to go back to juniors once the damage was done? It only takes a couple of years to lose die hard fans (and the next generation of fans who accompany them to games). Many many junior clubs USED to be massive within the Junior FA but are stuck languishing in the lower leagues due to a dip in form or fortune that they never recovered from.

Take Talbot or Linlithgow. Why on earth would they want to go into LL or SPFL 2 with no guarantee of ever getting any higher, or what would happen if they finish last and get relegated. If they were not winning crowds would fall, especially if the traditional rivalries they have now disappeared. No matter the level of football - fans leave/stay away when results are bad and times are tough.

They could be stuck in the LL or SPFL 2 bobbing about middle of the table for a few years and that would severely weaken them. Would the Talbot fans fancy a midweek game at Gala or Selkirk or Whitehill if it was 8th vs 9th in a meaningless game in March?!

I must say this argument could be applied to all "non league" sides like juniors, EOS, SOS etc.

It's easy to come on here and spout crap about lack of ambition, words are cheap and easy on forums. But the people running these clubs, in their spare time and for free and without much thanks, have to do what they think is correct to keep them alive and competitive as possible.

It's very disrespectful at times I think, to suggest that just because it's what some of you lot think, that everyone else should think the same, and if they don't, they must backwards. What a load of rubbish.

For what it's worth I can't ever see the juniors joining the rest, or at least 90% of the clubs will remain in the juniors. But I can see many EOS or SOS etc teams joining the juniors if a LL2 isn't in place ASAP and plans are made to save what's left.

I agree with most of this.

Just for the record. The top West sides seem to be charging £6 for a league game. Last week I was at Ardrossan v Irvine Vics, tier 2 v tier 3 of the Juniors and it was £6 (West of Scotland Cup First Round ).

I think it's a bit daft coming on here given that it's a LL forum and referring to 'you lot' which seems to place you in the Junior camp. If you look at the posts above you there's a good mixture of contributors. Essentially most of us seem to want the same thing and I've never had any time for the Senior v Junior tripe anyway. We're all non-league.

I believe in England the whole pyramid thing was started by the non-League who then got their act together before knocking on the League's door and demanding entry.

Maybe there's a lesson for us there.

BTW the Talbot regulars on here will remind you that there's no risk of their Billy Big Baws team ever scrapping away at 8th-9th in our diddy league

1) I think the East and West Junior super league idea is a far more exciting prospect for the Junior clubs than LL or SPFL 2, and the Juniors would buy into that. The admission price for a ticket to a top junior league game is £5. The ticket price to go to East Stirling is £12, more than double the cost. Say Bonnyrigg Rose were away to East Stirling. I would be looking at £12 to get in, £8/£10 for bus, £5 for food, £2 a programme... between £20-£30 roughly?? Do you think thats vaule for money, no chance. I know clubs when the Junior cup draw is make and they get an away draw miles away and even that one trip is a problem to them due to players working before or after, cost of the bus, committee men being available etc.In reality i think the east and west combined super league will fall through due to travel costs - two or three away games to further afield on the bounce could be a problem for some clubs.

2) You say it as if "going higher" is what every club wants! Maybe having been in the Juniors for years these clubs have "found thier level"?! Just because Whitehill Welfare have wanted to join the senior ranks for a long time, does that mean everyone else should want to.... NO! But if your asking would i rather have Bonnyrigg competing with Linlithgow, Boness, Talbot, Hurlford, Irvine Meadow orcompeting with the LL or SPLF2 teams... its a no brainer i would take the junior games every time. I know thats hard for you to accept, but thats the truth for most Junior fans and clubs.

So are you saying the Super-Duper League is a good or bad idea? You seem to be saying both

It's true that WW applied on one occasion, the time that Elgin and Annan got in, but that must have been one of Peter's regular daft turns. I don't think WW are keen at all.

The key stumbling block to a pyramid is having 42 clubs playing at a national level, because it is the bottom two tiers of the national divisions that almost all junior clubs and even most Highland League clubs have almost zero interest of ever progressing into, because they prefer a regional setup for the reasons described immediately above. Two national divisions aimed at licensed full-time clubs should be sufficient for a country of Scotland's size. After that there should be a three-way east-west-north step for two tiers, then a six-way split after that for the district level of the juniors plus EoS, SoS and NCL, then ever more subdivision for each tier down once you factor in the amateurs. Chances of this ever happening are probably zilch, because of the way the SFA is structured internally in AGM voting rights terms.

Exactly.

And according to everything I've ever heard, step 1 is to get rid of Regan who is absolutely clueless about non-league.

[Mr Tee]

I agree with most of this.

Just for the record. The top West sides seem to be charging £6 for a league game. Last week I was at Ardrossan v Irvine Vics, tier 2 v tier 3 of the Juniors and it was £6 (West of Scotland Cup First Round ).

I think it's a bit daft coming on here given that it's a LL forum and referring to 'you lot' which seems to place you in the Junior camp. If you look at the posts above you there's a good mixture of contributors. Essentially most of us seem to want the same thing and I've never had any time for the Senior v Junior tripe anyway. We're all non-league.

I believe in England the whole pyramid thing was started by the non-League who then got their act together before knocking on the League's door and demanding entry.

Maybe there's a lesson for us there.

BTW the Talbot regulars on here will remind you that there's no risk of their Billy Big Baws team ever scrapping away at 8th-9th in our diddy league

So are you saying the Super-Duper League is a good or bad idea? You seem to be saying both

It's true that WW applied on one occasion, the time that Elgin and Annan got in, but that must have been one of Peter's regular daft turns. I don't think WW are keen at all.

haha, by you lot, i mean you do have a few gentleman who are very against the Juniors. Referring to the "devils illumations" and going on about fixtures lists being published in advance even though they are then almost completely abondoned come cup time or weather issues etc. To the neutral it just seems a very definate stance, almost like it personally offends some people that the (vast majority of the) juniors are happy as they are and basically do not see the LL etc as something they wish to be involved with.

Super Duper Juniors league would be great i think, but in practical terms it would prove to be too costly with travel etc. Someone else commented that its now dead in the water anyway.

Me personally i think it should be one streamlined pyramid system with promotion and relegation from top to bottom - the juniors, EOS, LL, SOS, HL etc etc all feeding into the 4th tier (or whatever level the entry division would then sit at). Should be ran by the same association with the same rules and same laws. But i just cant see that happening because the Juniors are not intersted and many clubs at all non league level are simply just not well organised enough or have the necessary facilities in place for it to be realistic. And be honest, there is an element of being scared of change, and for some older committee men basically saying "F*ck them" out of spite or stubborness.

[newcastle broon]

1) I think the East and West Junior super league idea is a far more exciting prospect for the Junior clubs than LL or SPFL 2, and the Juniors would buy into that. The admission price for a ticket to a top junior league game is £5. The ticket price to go to East Stirling is £12, more than double the cost. Say Bonnyrigg Rose were away to East Stirling. I would be looking at £12 to get in, £8/£10 for bus, £5 for food, £2 a programme... between £20-£30 roughly?? Do you think thats vaule for money, no chance. I know clubs when the Junior cup draw is make and they get an away draw miles away and even that one trip is a problem to them due to players working before or after, cost of the bus, committee men being available etc.In reality i think the east and west combined super league will fall through due to travel costs - two or three away games to further afield on the bounce could be a problem for some clubs.

2) You say it as if "going higher" is what every club wants! Maybe having been in the Juniors for years these clubs have "found thier level"?! Just because Whitehill Welfare have wanted to join the senior ranks for a long time, does that mean everyone else should want to.... NO! But if your asking would i rather have Bonnyrigg competing with Linlithgow, Boness, Talbot, Hurlford, Irvine Meadow orcompeting with the LL or SPLF2 teams... its a no brainer i would take the junior games every time. I know thats hard for you to accept, but thats the truth for most Junior fans and clubs.

3) I used Talbot and Linlithgow becase i keep reading that once one of the "big teams" make the move, it might open the path for the rest. The point is more relevant to "smaller" Junior teams, who have even less support and things in place to move up through the levels and therefor playing teams they have no history or rivalry against, possibly further afield than they currently have to travel and for more than double the cost to the small fan base they have would mean virtually no travelling support - people quickly find other things to do on Saturdays once they stop following a team!!

I dont know if you read Davie McQueenie in the local rag saying that Easthouses had made more income in 3/4 juniors games than they had in two full seasons at EOS level. So it cant be that backwards can it.

The product the Juniors have serves them well and they would be crazy to give that up without absolute guarantees about many things. The product the LL has suits them.

Anyway your right it does go in circles. I would love to see one "non league" body in a pyramid system but i doubt it will happen anytime soon.

1) As far as I know theres only 1 LL side that charges above £5

2) food and programmes are optional

3) Most LL and prob junior most probably have a ht draw on the gate (again optional) but prob bringing cost a bit closer to the £12 mark than you think.

4) if you followed your club (amazingly amount of posters who have opinions yet not associated with a team on here) passionately it wouldn't matter what league your team was in whether £5 or £25

5)Think WW applied once for spfl and that I think was our manager at the time as we were sweeping all before us at eos level (many years ago)

6)So your happy Bonnyrigg having at least 3 trips to Ayrshire from Midlothian in your post,a fair bit costs involved there yet its a no brainer

7)Whoever said it was backwards ?

8)Personally think Easthouses are like the borders railway once the novelty factor wears of crowds will dwindle.

9)There are traditionally some well supported teams that are going well in Easthouses league are these teams "smaller" as you put it ?

10) Got to agree one non league body aint gonnae happen anytime soon so we'll leave it at that. Nae point being another junior fan having a go at the seniors set up.

[newcastle broon]

haha, by you lot, i mean you do have a few gentleman who are very against the Juniors. Referring to the "devils illumations" and going on about fixtures lists being published in advance even though they are then almost completely abondoned come cup time or weather issues etc. To the neutral it just seems a very definate stance, almost like it personally offends some people that the (vast majority of the) juniors are happy as they are and basically do not see the LL etc as something they wish to be involved with.

Super Duper Juniors league would be great i think, but in practical terms it would prove to be too costly with travel etc. Someone else commented that its now dead in the water anyway.

Me personally i think it should be one streamlined pyramid system with promotion and relegation from top to bottom - the juniors, EOS, LL, SOS, HL etc etc all feeding into the 4th tier (or whatever level the entry division would then sit at). Should be ran by the same association with the same rules and same laws. But i just cant see that happening because the Juniors are not intersted and many clubs at all non league level are simply just not well organised enough or have the necessary facilities in place for it to be realistic. And be honest, there is an element of being scared of change, and for some older committee men basically saying "F*ck them" out of spite or stubborness.

Correct me if im wrong but I think there are far more anti lowland posters on here from the junior side.

Its a LL forum yet certain posters cant keep away from it despite having hee haw to do with the LL.

Must be something in it as to why so many poke their noses in from time to time when same old crap pops up.

yer last paragraph about sums it all up

[The Mantis]

haha, by you lot, i mean you do have a few gentleman who are very against the Juniors. Referring to the "devils illumations" and going on about fixtures lists being published in advance even though they are then almost completely abondoned come cup time or weather issues etc. To the neutral it just seems a very definate stance, almost like it personally offends some people that the (vast majority of the) juniors are happy as they are and basically do not see the LL etc as something they wish to be involved with.

What Newky said plus:

Either you picked a bad example or you cannae see the irony in the phrase 'devil's illuminations' which is a joke that's been running for years.

The fixture list argument is nonsense as even clubs in the 'greatest league in the world' have cup replays and weather issues.

Yes there are a few gentlemen who want nothing to do with the Juniors but look back at the topics on this board and see how many Junior posters come on here slagging our league off. Then look on the Juniors forum and see if you can find the equivalent.

[Mr Tee]

Ha calm down gents, i never once said that once side was worse than the other, just commenting on how i see it, which is kinda the point of this forum.No doubt at all the Junior boys have a good dig and vise versa. However i happened to come across this thread, which happens to be on the LL forum!

I do have one or two issues with Newcie's answer though:

1) As far as I know theres only 1 LL side that charges above £5:

I know that, i was compairing to the SPFL 2. The point in joining the LL is to reach the SPFL 2 and above, and at that point things get more expensive for teams and fans.

4) if you followed your club (amazingly amount of posters who have opinions yet not associated with a team on here) passionately it wouldn't matter what league your team was in whether £5 or £25

Yes i have a big issue with this. I pay for Sky and BT sports, my son wants a Barcelona strip one week, Real Madrid the next, I play football myself so pay for that, I am a Rangers fan and go to Ibrox every 2nd or 3rd week. Realistically, most of my age group (25-40) have the same pressure on finances and not a single person i know would pay £25 to watch thier local team vs East Stirling (just an example!). Not a hope in hell. Even if i had the spare money and didnt mind, £25 to go and watch the lowest level of SPFL football is an absolute joke in my opinion. Yes its all optional in terms of food, how you travel to and from games and raffles etc, but say my local club went into SPFL 2, it would cost £25 or more to travel and get in to away games.

And for the record i have been to home games of Bonnyrigg x3, Nitten x2, Whitehill x2, Easthouses x1, Ormiston x2, Rangers x3 and Arniston x1 including friendlies since the begining of this season, often with some friends and occasionally with my son. However if all was equal, i was free and all were at home, i would go to Bonnyriggs game, as i am Bonnyrigg born and bread, although i am actually closer to Ferguson Park! That said, if a top English or Spanish game is on a Saturday 1pm kick off, i wouldnt go to any of them, and thats what i guess most non league sides struggle to compete with especially in winter.

Now, whos for summer football lads? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[MacGafraidh]

I am glad someone finally said "look at England" because their pyramid was a series of leagues evolving, finding their place, some leagues ended up at a grade lower than they should have due to procrastination but after probably decades of change they have a workable pyramid where a start up club like FCUM or AFC Wimbledon can go from the lowest level in their area to league football in about 10 years (in AFCW case) or be on the brink of league football (in FCUM case)

[The Old Northerner]

I know that, i was compairing to the SPFL 2. The point in joining the LL is to reach the SPFL 2 and above, and at that point things get more expensive for teams and fans.

I'd use a wider argument - the point of a pyramid is to have a clearly defined promotion/relegation mechanism, so that clubs aren't faced with a complete leap in the dark if an opportunity for promotion - at whatever level - arises.

[Grim O'Grady]

C'mon Mods can yous not merge this with all the other junior/Lowland League threads? The 1st couple of threads the debate was fresh & interesting now it's just getting tedious.

We all know the Juniors are not willing/allowed to join the LL. Until the 1st one does let's quit this daft shit.

Please try searching before restarting this topic again in a couple of months.

Grimbo

[bendan]

Surely these are the kind of discussions that need to take place if there's ever to be a genuine pyramid. I always read these threads, even though they are repetitive, and from the number of responses, lots of others do too.

As someone without a foot in either camp, I'd hope both can learn from the strengths of the other. LL has enforced higher standards on quite a few clubs and pushed them to improve, and the incentive of moving up has added interest. There's also the significant addition of 3 new teams to senior football. In time I think the LL will strengthen and at least match the HL level.

It would be silly to ignore the clear positives of the Junior setup. Not much travelling and lots of local derbies seems appropriate for teams without much money.

If the LL can establish itself at a higher level on the field to the juniors, then I think in the (distant) future it's possible to see a combined structure beneath it, but it's going to take years.

[The Mantis]

C'mon Mods can yous not merge this with all the other junior/Lowland League threads? The 1st couple of threads the debate was fresh & interesting now it's just getting tedious.

We all know the Juniors are not willing/allowed to join the LL. Until the 1st one does let's quit this daft shit.

Please try searching before restarting this topic again in a couple of months.

Grimbo

Aye cmon everybody this juniors pish means a lack of Spartans threads