Uncle Psychosis Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Oh no, we might offend 'proud Scots' who come up with any old pish to explain why their country is too wee, too poor or too stupid to conduct its own affairs. These people will never vote Yes. Give up on independence and indyref2 then, if No voters are never going to change their mind? Or perhaps admit that maybe, just maybe, if you want to convince people to swing to Yes, that appealing to some horrific "real Scots" Nationalist argument isn't going to work, because all the Nationalists already went Yes and most of the people that are left are not on board with that line of reasoning. There's a reason that Yes Scotland did everything they could to distance the Yes campaign from full-fat Nationalism and the talk was of "civic" nationalism at every possible point. Nationalism is a toxic ideal for a great many people---just ask the Greens, or the SSP or National Collective or any of the other Yes groups who wouldn't described themselves as Nats. Anyone who thinks that retreating to this nasty, vindictive "real Scots voted Yes and No voters are shitebag traitors" brand of Nationalist rhetoric may actually convince people to swing to Yes is utterly deluded. Many Yes supporters think as much, nevermind people who voted No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedRob72 Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Give up on independence and indyref2 then, if No voters are never going to change their mind? Or perhaps admit that maybe, just maybe, if you want to convince people to swing to Yes, that appealing to some horrific "real Scots" Nationalist argument isn't going to work, because all the Nationalists already went Yes and most of the people that are left are not on board with that line of reasoning. There's a reason that Yes Scotland did everything they could to distance the Yes campaign from full-fat Nationalism and the talk was of "civic" nationalism at every possible point. Nationalism is a toxic ideal for a great many people---just ask the Greens, or the SSP or National Collective or any of the other Yes groups who wouldn't described themselves as Nats. Anyone who thinks that retreating to this nasty, vindictive "real Scots voted Yes and No voters are shitebag traitors" brand of Nationalist rhetoric may actually convince people to swing to Yes is utterly deluded. Many Yes supporters think as much, nevermind people who voted No. A very good contribution indeed, hundreds of thousands in complete agreement I would imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I wasn't imposing anything. And, if you care to remember a majority were against it. Why do you think it's acceptable to ignore the wishes of the majority to hold another referendum before a reasonable time has passed? I never said the real Scot thing put me off. I am a no, and will remain so until convinced otherwise. Looking at all the nonsense posted here by yes voters probably only intensifies my belief that no was best. Define reasonable time. It'll happen when the public want it to happen, when they vote for a party standing on a platform for one in sufficient numbers for that party to put one forward. Not sure the personal opinions of a few folk on here should hold so much influence on your beliefs to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowthennowthen Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Do you two have real life teenage tantrums or just keep them in here? The lack of believe was in the SNP not Scotland. What was the SNP's strategy to combat project fear and get their message to the older voter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 That's a very negative view to take, Robert. If you mean Lambie and I are proud Yes supporters then Yes, Yes we are. Absolutely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 *Absolutely. Thunderclown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Their plan is to tell people they are not Scottish and demand the same people acquiesce to their demand for another vote. This is regardless of the public exercising their democratic voice a few short months ago. Who's the 'their' you're referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 You mean like when they voted for the SNP, then lost the referendum? The result of the referendum shows quite clearly you can support the SNP and not independence. They don't Influence me, I thought I made that clear? It also shows that they were willing to give the SNP the platform to hold it in the first place, as long as they continue to do that, another referendum is not off the table in a given time frame so long as it's clearly set out in the manifesto that is voted on. As for the second bit, you clearly suggested that the outlook of several folk on here 'intensified' your beliefs, which suggests some influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 They had the vote and lost. Do you think the vote should happen during every parliament? They sololidify my belief we were correct to vote no due to the repeated nonsense spouted by some. They don't influence my conviction due to the fact very few discuss anything. Page upon page of back slapping each other for voting yes followed by some crap about no voters being less Scottish. The articulate yes posters are drowned out in a sea of shite. ^ confused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 You're a very poor troll. And painfully dim. Run along, that's a good simpleton. Says the utter cretin that's been offering spelling and grammar lessons all day; then composes a vocabulary spurge noted above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Wipe the tears away. That's right, all better. Off you pop and practice spelling your name. ^ yawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 They had the vote and lost. Do you think the vote should happen during every parliament? They sololidify my belief we were correct to vote no due to the repeated nonsense spouted by some. They don't influence my conviction due to the fact very few discuss anything. Page upon page of back slapping each other for voting yes followed by some crap about no voters being less Scottish. The articulate yes posters are drowned out in a sea of shite. The nature of democracy suggests that if they put definitive plans for a referendum in a manifesto, that is subsequently rewarded with the representation in the parliament to bring that forward, then yes, theoretically. In reality of course, they won't - and the 2016 SNP manifesto will carefully describe certain conditions that could give rise to a second referendum quickly, but in probability will not come to pass - they cannot of course, go forward without some further commitment to Indy. The 'EU scenario' is probably the most likely, and a UK wide vote in favour is not exactly a foregone conclusion at the minute, but my own guess is the next definite commitment to a referendum will come after the 2021 election, assuming the Tories secure a third consecutive term and Corbyn implodes, taking with him any chance of a UK wide resurrection of left wing progressive government. As to the rest, no doubt emotive responses like the ones you describe are unhelpful, but then on your side the constant whinging about Yessers shutting up about indy and 'moving on' are equally so. As if the outcome of the referendum suddenly required those on the Yes side to abandon their convictions. Fact is the failure of No to keep the Yes vote low enough to marginalise it's support leaves us in a place where the constitutional question remains a central focus of our politics. failure to engage with that in a meaningful way leaves us all, Yes and No alike, 'drowning in a sea of shite'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever_blue Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Give up on independence and indyref2 then, if No voters are never going to change their mind? Or perhaps admit that maybe, just maybe, if you want to convince people to swing to Yes, that appealing to some horrific "real Scots" Nationalist argument isn't going to work, because all the Nationalists already went Yes and most of the people that are left are not on board with that line of reasoning. There's a reason that Yes Scotland did everything they could to distance the Yes campaign from full-fat Nationalism and the talk was of "civic" nationalism at every possible point. Nationalism is a toxic ideal for a great many people---just ask the Greens, or the SSP or National Collective or any of the other Yes groups who wouldn't described themselves as Nats. Anyone who thinks that retreating to this nasty, vindictive "real Scots voted Yes and No voters are shitebag traitors" brand of Nationalist rhetoric may actually convince people to swing to Yes is utterly deluded. Many Yes supporters think as much, nevermind people who voted No. Superb post , hit the nail firmly on the head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Stubbs Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Do you two have real life teenage tantrums or just keep them in here? The lack of believe was in the SNP not Scotland. What was the SNP's strategy to combat project fear and get their message to the older voter? Their plan is to tell people they are not Scottish and demand the same people acquiesce to their demand for another vote. This is regardless of the public exercising their democratic voice a few short months ago. Behave yourself. This is like something you'd expect to read on read on one of the nutty anti-SNP FB pages Kev pastes everything from, not from you. There are decent enough reasons to argue against another referendum too soon, why not use those instead of dishonest bollocks like this? They had the vote and lost. Do you think the vote should happen during every parliament? They sololidify my belief we were correct to vote no due to the repeated nonsense spouted by some. They don't influence my conviction due to the fact very few discuss anything. Page upon page of back slapping each other for voting yes followed by some crap about no voters being less Scottish. The articulate yes posters are drowned out in a sea of shite. ...and again, nonsense I'm afraid. This arguments been done plenty of times before and I'll say what I've said each of those times: there is much more debate and disagreement between Yes voters on here than No. The Yes bullies patting themselves on the back and shouting down the poor Unionist lambs doesn't stand up to one iota of scrutiny. I've had no end of disagreements with SNP/Yes posters on here. Have you ever challenged the hysterical pish that P&B's band of mostly far right wacko No voters post? Not saying you're duty bound to or anything but please, let's not have the Helen Lovejoy nasty Nat act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever_blue Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 , let's not have the Helen Lovejoy nasty Nat act. Never knew chamberlin married Tim .... Al grab my coat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 While I agree they may have something re another referendum is it not possible people vote for the SNP but don't want another vote? I hope the issue remains and is debated, I do also agree we have a shitfest on both sides. 2021 or thereabouts I think is a very reasonable timescale. Of course, but you have to put up with the bits of the manifesto you disagree with to get the bits you do agree with - assuming the public give the SNP a majority. You might get the change to income tax bands that you want, but that might trade off with their rise in VAT, or whatever. Same goes for a referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renton Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I don't disagree, I personally would like to see the SNP dedicate their term in office to running the country to the best of their ability. Then, after doing the best they can point at their record and take it from there. Who knows, they might just do a better job if not constantly firing shots across Westminster. I think that's a false premise, you can't have an independence debate on one party's record in office. Indy is about systems, not incumbents. It isn't and shouldn't be about the SNP, beyond their wishing to bring the issue forward. I also don't think you can have two different parties controlling the various devolved and reserved areas without firing shots at each other, after all, one side's budget is controlled by the other. In that instance, it's actually the correct response to shoot across the Tories bows. That's simply going to be a feature of multi tiered government, and is the world over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Stubbs Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I don't challenge the the more vociferous No voters on here because they are either at the wind up or are fucking simple. Apologies if I have missed the yes debates you have had here but I genuinely just haven't seen them. Fido is the worst for all the nonsense re no voters. I think his passion is commendable but his scattergun approach does more harm than good. Which as I said, is fair enough. I probably wouldn't have the patience for it either but wouldn't you agree that trying to draw some wider meaning out of Yes voters "slapping each other on the back" is a bit redundant then? You obviously don't feel that the comparable posters on your side of the debate speak for anyone, why does Fide and his scattergun approach prove anything about anything? And aye, no need to apologise but I'm not taking the piss, you have missed them (not for a while tbf, probably with SSI account). I think he's a good c**t overall but I've had basically this argument with Fide a few times and that complete bellend Fuzzy Afro was always getting me genuinely annoyed Yes voters who probably contributed a net vote loss for the Yes side by being obnoxious arseholes to everyone around them annoyed me more than anyone and I made that point plenty at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todders Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 After a suitable time frame I would of course be in favour of another. Not this never ending referendum nonsense tho. Say10 years. Why 10 years? Because it's a nice round number. Seems fairly arbitrary to me. Would you be against holding on each if polls show consistent and clear support for independence in 4years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todders Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 They had the vote and lost. Do you think the vote should happen during every parliament? . If it's in the manifesto of the party who wins a majority in an election, then yes I do. Anything else would be undemocratic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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