Glenconner Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 I understand that Mandela had been involved in the armed struggle, and I certainly don't agree with that, however , it's made slightly more understandable by the lack of re-dress via the ballot box. As for America pulling the plug, I don't understand what you mean by that? With the Soviet Union collapse and with it the proxy wars fought during the Cold War, certain regimes propped up by the consent of the USA well collapsed.The apartheid regime in South Africa were obviously told to wrap it by the USA after communism imploded from within. The apartheid regime were big time players in the anti communist world. And Nelson Mandela was a communist party member. A number of proxy wars ended around the same time. Btw the conflict in Northern Ireland was another that just happened to come to a stumbling halt around that period. America had/has quite an interesting line in mass murder by proxy. Their geopolitical interests come first always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotbawmad Posted August 15, 2015 Share Posted August 15, 2015 How many of today's political figures will be considered greats in 20, 50, 100 years? I think we'll be struggling, considering most frontline politicians aren't much more than corporate puppets nowadays while actual thinking minds are almost marginalised. That's because the current political setup inevitably attracts the wrong kind of people. While pushing the good people out. The media try to turn politics into a cult of personality. Mainly due to parties being broadly the same and the fact that the winning party is the one that can best capture the median voter. The other problem arises from the fact that the political and corporate class have a huge incentive to keep the public uninformed and distracted. They like things the way they are, and the last thing they want is to have their ways of doing things be challenged in any meaningful way. At least in recent times they're beginning to be challenged. Given that they can't control the narrative in the same way they used to due to the existence of social media. The biggest problem of all is that MP's come from too narrow a background. They try to distract us by saying they want more MPs from a certain ethnicity, religion, gender, age bracket or sexuality. However, they have nothing to do with background and life experiences. If most people come from an upper/middle background and go to Uni and then straight into politics, then it's inevitably going to lead to conformity and a lack of understanding in certain key aspects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Btw the conflict in Northern Ireland was another that just happened to come to a stumbling halt around that period. Gaddafi was still around to send them semtex so not sure that line of argument works. The Provos were set up with the help of the crazier portion of the Fianna Fail elite in the RoI to sideline the Marxist Workers Party types and to try to create an Algerian scenario in NI. By the 90s it was abundantly clear that was not going to happen, so it was time for a face-saving surrender with a watered down version of Sunningdale. Agree with your basic premise though. Think, the Mobutu regime in Zaire is the other obvious one beyond South Africa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenconner Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Gaddafi was still around to send them semtex so not sure that line of argument works. The Provos were set up with the help of the crazier portion of the Fianna Fail elite in the RoI to sideline the Marxist Workers Party types and to try to create an Algerian scenario in NI. By the 90s it was abundantly clear that was not going to happen, so it was time for a face-saving surrender with a watered down version of Sunningdale. Agree with your basic premise though. Think, the Mobutu regime in Zaire is the other obvious one beyond South Africa. Thanks for that, LTL. Maybe a number of points that could be debated in more detail but that would be taking the thread completely off topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 If you assume that the reformation wouldn't have happened without him then you've got a point but that's a highly questionable assumption. Unpicking the various strands of Reformation history has fueled PhD theses for decades. You also have to throw Henry 8th in to the mix along with Calvin and Knox.. My money is on Henry 8th. He effected both political and religious change in a way that no other fucker has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 My money is on Henry 8th. He effected both political and religious change in a way that no other fucker has. And only for the cause of his own fucking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 And only for the cause of his own fucking. Sure but that's cheap. Henry the 8th changed the face of Europe in a way that none of the above did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted August 17, 2015 Share Posted August 17, 2015 Unpicking the various strands of Reformation history has fueled PhD theses for decades. You also have to throw Henry 8th in to the mix along with Calvin and Knox.. My money is on Henry 8th. He effected both political and religious change in a way that no other fucker has. You should probably throw various popes into the mix as well. Henry VIII after was effectively dumped by Rome as opposed to being the one doing the dumping and his reformation was a fairly half hearted affair. He's no Cromwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 You should probably throw various popes into the mix as well. Henry VIII after was effectively dumped by Rome as opposed to being the one doing the dumping and his reformation was a fairly half hearted affair. He's no Cromwell Throwing popes sounds like fun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Henry VIII after was effectively dumped by Rome as opposed to being the one doing the dumping and his reformation was a fairly half hearted affair. You make a good point. I'd say that England's reformation was both half-hearted but about the best outcome you could get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenconner Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 You make a good point. I'd say that England's reformation was both half-hearted but about the best outcome you could get. All pretty meaningless in a post Christian society 400 odd years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 You make a good point. I'd say that England's reformation was both half-hearted but about the best outcome you could get. What we ended up with because of his sexual incontinence was a pseudo-religious conflict going on even till this day in the backward schemes, villages and gentlemen's clubs of West Scotland and North Ireland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 All pretty meaningless in a post Christian society 400 odd years later. Not really. England's reformation formed the country and it's still relevant, What we ended up with because of his sexual incontinence was a pseudo-religious conflict going on even till this day in the backward schemes, villages and gentlemen's clubs of West Scotland and North Ireland. Different strokes, chap. The Reformation in Scotland was very different to that in England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenconner Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 I'll give it 50 years and the main sky fairy grouping in England will be Islam. Henry the VIII i am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Arguably already the case in terms of active participation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 I'll give it 50 years and the main sky fairy grouping in England will be Islam. Henry the VIII i am. There is, though, a serious point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenconner Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 There is, though, a serious point. Give in, what is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Tibbs Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 In a British context, Enoch Powell. Otherwise, Kim Jong-il. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MassiveFanDan Posted August 19, 2015 Share Posted August 19, 2015 You're a Labour man through and through Terry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Craig Posted August 20, 2015 Share Posted August 20, 2015 Thatcher or Pinochet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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