Antiochas III Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Squonk said: Okay, so some other nations have a dominant team or teams. But, which other nation has seen only two teams (3 if you include 2020/21) win the past 37 consecutive top league titles between them? More importantly, which other nation's monopoly or duopoly was built on the financial benefits of pseudo-religious and Irish political bollox that should have no place in football? 1 hour ago, CoF said: This is completely wrong. There isn't a league in Europe as uncompetitive. Some might be going that way over the last 10 years, i.e. Austria and France and Germany, but it's not on the scale or longevity of what we have going on here. The Croat league since it's founding has had 4 winners. 23 titles out of 31 won by Dinamo - including 16 of the last 17. In Serbia, 29 of the last 30 have been won by either Red Star or Partizan. With whichever one that didn't win/one of them being the other being second 27 of those 30... (they also won 30 of the 32 before that) Edited July 28, 2022 by Antiochas III 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 14 minutes ago, Antiochas III said: In Serbia, 29 of the last 30 have been won by either Red Star or Partizan. With whichever one that didn't win/one of them being the other being second 27 of those 30... (they also won 30 of the 32 before that) I don't understand that last bit. The Serbian League isn't 60 odd years old, which I think you're implying. In the Yugoslavian League which preceded it, sides from Zagreb, Split and Sarajevo won from time to time. Yes, the Serbian picture looks almost as desperate as ours, but even then, they've had another winner in the period being discussed. The division of the former Yugoslavia has clearly played a huge part here. Finding another example is hardly proof that we don't have a problem. We do, and we shouldn't be looking to shoot the occasional messengers who tell us. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennie makevin Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 3 hours ago, Antiochas III said: Thing is. This is not a Scottish only issue. It's a European wide football issue. But somehow, if you listened to those who should be promoting our game it is only here that has the dominance by 2 teams (some leagues have 1 true title challenger). Of course, the classic 'why are you upset that your cat got ran over, lots of other cats get run over as well ' line of argument beloved by Old Firm apologists . 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiegoDiego Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 Thing is. This is not a Scottish only issue. It's a European wide football issue. The Croat league since it's founding has had 4 winners. 23 titles out of 31 won by Dinamo - including 16 of the last 17. In Serbia, 29 of the last 30 have been won by either Red Star or Partizan.Finding two examples out of a possible 54 (neither of which by your own evidence are as bad as Scotland) doesn't exactly prove it's a Europe-wide problem. There are a number of healthy, competitive, top-flight leagues around Europe 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 12 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said: Finding two examples out of a possible 54 (neither of which by your own evidence are as bad as Scotland) doesn't exactly prove it's a Europe-wide problem. There are a number of healthy, competitive, top-flight leagues around Europe Depends what you mean, really. Spain has had four winners since 2000, but Barca and Real have won all but six titles since 1984. Is that healthy? It had five winners in 11 years before that. The Bundesliga has Bayern at ten in a row. It had five different winners in the decade before that. Healthy? France had five different winners in five years, but since then have eight PSG wins in ten years. Ferencvaros have just won their fourth in a row in Hungary. By 12 points. The year before they won it by 20 points. The two before by 13 points each time. Dinamo have won 16 of the last 17 in Croatia. Brugge have won four of the last five in Belgium. Got a scare last year, but the two before that by 16 and 15 points. In Portugal Porto and Benfica have won all but two titles since 1982. Healthy? Olympiakos have won 16 of the last 20 in Greece. By 12 points last season. 16 points the season before. Red Bull have won nine in a row in Austria. By 15 points last season. By 16 points the season before. I'll stop there because I'm bored now, but there are more. This is unquestionably a Europe-wide problem. Just because there are some exceptions, it does not negate the fact that the league system has been broken by the structure of modern football. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiegoDiego Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 Come on, Hungary have had five winners in the last decade, hardly comparable with Scotland. There are a good many leagues in Europe with similar stats such as Albania, Estonia and, oh, England. If this discussion is still rampaging when I get some spare time I'll maybe do a proper analysis. Regardless, to deny that Scotland is that absolute poster boy for two-club dominance is laughable. We were the blueprint for these other leagues. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 1 minute ago, DiegoDiego said: Come on, Hungary have had five winners in the last decade, hardly comparable with Scotland. There are a good many leagues in Europe with similar stats such as Albania, Estonia and, oh, England. If this discussion is still rampaging when I get some spare time I'll maybe do a proper analysis. Regardless, to deny that Scotland is that absolute poster boy for two-club dominance is laughable. We were the blueprint for these other leagues. The two are not mutually exclusive. Scotland is among the world leaders in this, but to imply that Europe's league system is in good health is simple denial of reality. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 Both positions are right. League winners becoming predictable is a phenomenon seen now in many leagues. It's because of how wealth is generated and distributed. It's self perpetuating. It's especially pronounced and long standing in Scotland. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScarf Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 Yep, other leagues (Germany, France) are just catching up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VincentGuerin Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 1 minute ago, Monkey Tennis said: Both positions are right. League winners becoming predictable is a phenomenon seen now in many leagues. It's because of how wealth is generated and distributed. It's self perpetuating. It's especially pronounced and long standing in Scotland. We pioneered it in the modern era because we had a club that started Champions League-style spending before the Champions League began. Rangers were ahead of that curve in the late 80s, and it shafted the league. Ultimately, they were among the biggest victims of that. Other countries have simply followed as the CL has driven their leagues to similar inequality, while Scotland has just carried on down the path. As soon as the CL was created, this was the path. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 2 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said: We pioneered it in the modern era because we had a club that started Champions League-style spending before the Champions League began. Rangers were ahead of that curve in the late 80s, and it shafted the league. Ultimately, they were among the biggest victims of that. Other countries have simply followed as the CL has driven their leagues to similar inequality, while Scotland has just carried on down the path. As soon as the CL was created, this was the path. I suppose the hope has to be that as competition is increasingly buggered in major countries like France and Germany, then the need to look at some sort of structural change becomes more urgent. Any such moves would be wildly resisted, however, by those best served by the nonsense. Here, the press would help them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiegoDiego Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 The two are not mutually exclusive. Scotland is among the world leaders in this, but to imply that Europe's league system is in good health is simple denial of reality.I don't think anyone was implying it was in good health as a whole. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ampersand Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 On 27/07/2022 at 14:10, kennie makevin said: Thems the facts..... I wasn't taking aim at the assumption that one of the twins will win the league - more at this style of article that treats the rest of the league as a joke. I was being po-faced though, given it's supposed to be a funny article. It's just not to my taste - I should have stopped reading at 'sheer daftness'. On 27/07/2022 at 14:32, Monkey Tennis said: I'd much prefer a piece like that to one speculating about which of the sister clubs wins this time, as if it matters at all. Fair comment. Although the View From the Terrace one today managed to be light-hearted without treating anything non-OF as a figure of fun. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VictorOnopko Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 On 27/07/2022 at 13:52, Ampersand said: You know it's nearly time for the new league season when someone from the BBC files this sort of self-hating drivel... https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/61969416 The most tiresome thing about that article is that "Nick McPheat" (an AI bot?) churned out something similarly unfunny and try-hard about the wacky world of Scottish fitba this time last year too: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57821757 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted July 28, 2022 Share Posted July 28, 2022 2 hours ago, VictorOnopko said: The most tiresome thing about that article is that "Nick McPheat" (an AI bot?) churned out something similarly unfunny and try-hard about the wacky world of Scottish fitba this time last year too: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57821757 I struggle to find that piece annoying too. I quite liked it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishBhoy Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 Does the Serbian league have the same gulf in finances between the top two and the chasing pack? It’s a genuine question because I don’t know. In Scotland nobody bats an eyelid that two teams spend more money on wages in a year than some top flight teams spend in 10. Celtic spent about £20 million on transfer fees last season (admittedly they did bring in a fair wedge in sales), but teams like Aberdeen and Hearts do their best but realistically they are never going to be anywhere near that level, and with Champions League Group Stage money are getting further away. I think most non-OF fans have came to accept it, but it’s still galling that the media fawn over Rangers or Celtic winning 5 or 6 nothing against a Motherwell or St Mirren without ever mentioning the gulf between the clubs financially, but when Celtic took a pasting off PSG in the Champions League a few years ago the first thing we heard was Celtic can’t compete with them financially. It doesn’t help that the media is full of ex-OF players who are happy to go along with the story that the teams are competing against the OF on anything close to a level playing field, when in reality the difference in finances between St Mirren and the OF is larger than that between Celtic and PSG. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiegoDiego Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 Does the Serbian league have the same gulf in finances between the top two and the chasing pack? It’s a genuine question because I don’t know. I would guess its a similar gulf. In Serbia is a bit weird as all clubs were privately owned until recently. I think Čukarički are the only privately owned club in the top flight, but I could be wrong.Partizan have just come off a three-year UEFA ban for not paying tax and they've had players quit over unpaid wages.Another thing to remember about Crvena Zvezda and Partizan is that they're multi-sport organisations. Both clubs have basketball teams in the 18-strong Euroleague. Money can of course be shifted around between the various sports.Partizan were of course the army team until thirty years ago, which gave them opportunities unavailable to others. In 2019 Partizan had 75 academy graduates playing top flight football in Europe, the highest of any club in a 31-country survey conducted by a Swiss university. Presumably that's a pretty legitimate reason to have a financial advantage over other clubs, but, like Scotland, it really comes down to the fact that 90% of the population support one of the two. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 7 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said: Partizan were of course the army team until thirty years ago, which gave them opportunities unavailable to others. Shoot people? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiegoDiego Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 Shoot people?I'm not going to get in to any of that, Serbian football's a minefield. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 Just now, DiegoDiego said: 4 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said: Shoot people? I'm not going to get in to any of that, Serbian football's a minefield. I don't think it would be a big advantage as most clubs could shoot back. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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