The Terrible Journalism & Tom English Thread

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

BBC live text coverage of League Cup group games is the place to go for your Nazi puns.

[RandomGuy.]

15 hours ago, virginton said:

The season's really not 'barely underway' for a club facing its first European tie in years against some part-time, vowel-hating rabble and you made a royal c**t of it. That's a major part of your job performance for the campaign failed already. 

There's absolutely no reason why a manager shouldn't be sacked in July if they have failed at their job to a sufficient degree. There is no point in a club persisting with a terrible manager until they've 'had enough time' i.e. milling around the bottom of the table in September and leaving the new manager with a salvage operation. 

Steve Lomas lost something like his first ten games in charge of us.

By the end of the season we finished 3rd.

Sacking managers after 2 games is daft, especially when they've not even signed any players.

[Dons_1988]

Sacking a manager after two games would be absolutely ludicrous. For a journalist to be advocating that is quite incredible. The article smacks of xenophobia throughout too.

[Guest Moomintroll]

Sacking a manager after two games would be absolutely ludicrous. For a journalist to be advocating that is quite incredible. The article smacks of xenophobia throughout too.

I don't know what his issue with Killie is but he regularly puts the boot in & almost never has a good word to say about the Club. The stupid thing is that he is saying what an increasing number of fans are saying & there are disturbing stories leaking which are gathering momentum, but all he has done is shown himself up as an angry xenophobic simpleton who wants a guid honest laddie to get the job instead.

[Bairnardo]

Sacking a manager after two games would be absolutely ludicrous. For a journalist to be advocating that is quite incredible. The article smacks of xenophobia throughout too.

Aye this. There is less than 0% chance that article would have been written about a Scottish or even British manager. Rancid stuff. Whiff of a "know your place" message to Kilmarnock along with the more obvious smell of xenophobia.

[Marten]

9 hours ago, Sherrif John Bunnell said:

BBC live text coverage of League Cup group games is the place to go for your Nazi puns.

Another one on the same game, this link was already posted in "random matches you are going to", but according to the BBC the game finished 3-2 to County. I was at McDiarmid Park and I definitely didn't see more than 3 goals!

[FrankChickens1]

BBC Tweeted yesterday that Sherwin Seedorf was ready to step out of his father's shadow, in a tweet accompanying an article in which Clarence was described as possibly a distant relative.

[nsr]

Presumably they're getting him mixed up with Devante Cole.

[Swello]

2 hours ago, Dons_1988 said:

Sacking a manager after two games would be absolutely ludicrous. For a journalist to be advocating that is quite incredible. The article smacks of xenophobia throughout too.

Especially as "Scottish club makes massive c**t of it in early European game" happens literally every season - it's barely a surprise and doesn't warrant the silly-season pish in that piece...

 

[vikingTON]

2 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Steve Lomas lost something like his first ten games in charge of us.

By the end of the season we finished 3rd.

Sacking managers after 2 games is daft, especially when they've not even signed any players.

Frank de Boer lost his first five games in charge at Crystal Palace - they sacked him for being shite and finished 11th. Saint Mirren sacked Stubbs after four league games last season - one of which he actually won - and yet it probably helped them stave off relegation. While Livingston had already sacked Kenny Miller after two league games and went on to finish 9th in their first season back in the top flight. All of these were entirely justifiable decisions, despite the shrieks of outrage at the time. 

The only thing 'daft' here then is believing that terrible job performance shouldn't get a manager sacked until they reach some magical, arbitrary cut-off point either in a league campaign or in their time spent in charge. Oh and backing this up with some shite, anecdotal evidence from your boring farmer outfit, which demonstrates nothing of the sort. 

[RandomGuy.]

3 minutes ago, virginton said:

Frank de Boer lost his first five games in charge at Crystal Palace - they sacked him for being shite and finished 11th. Saint Mirren sacked Stubbs after four league games last season - one of which he actually won - and yet it probably helped them stave off relegation. While Livingston had already sacked Kenny Miller after two league games and went on to finish 9th in their first season back in the top flight. All of these were entirely justifiable decisions, despite the shrieks of outrage at the time. 

The only thing 'daft' here then is believing that terrible job performance shouldn't get a manager sacked until they reach some magical, arbitrary cut-off point either in a league campaign or in their time spent in charge. Oh and backing this up with some shite, anecdotal evidence from your boring farmer outfit, which demonstrates nothing of the sort. 

Its almost as if things should be decided on a club by club basis, isn't it?

[vikingTON]

2 hours ago, Bairnardo said:

Aye this. There is less than 0% chance that article would have been written about a Scottish or even British manager. Rancid stuff. Whiff of a "know your place" message to Kilmarnock along with the more obvious smell of xenophobia.

There is no doubt that a Scottish 'footbaw man' would be treated with kid gloves by the media in the same circumstances, and anyone who called for him to be sacked would be met with howls of derision about how unfair that would be on a guid, honest man. But that's really not an argument for all managers to be given the same fawning treatment and to have their piss-poor performance glossed over by their journalist mates. 

[vikingTON]

2 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Its almost as if things should be decided on a club by club basis, isn't it?

Except that two minutes ago you claimed that:

Quote

Sacking managers after 2 games is daft

Which is a universal statement applicable to every club; make your mind up please.

[Dons_1988]

The only way sacking a manager after 2 games would be acceptable is if there's a fundamental issue with the way the guy works.

Eg Stubbs recruitment was horrendous and had created dressing room unrest fairly early on. Kenny Miller seemingly couldn't cope with the combination of management and playing and so on and so on.

I don't think there's any argument that a terrible result alone is a reason to sack a manager. 

[Coventry Saint]

22 hours ago, CaspianChris said:

This is really a dreadful article from Gordon Parks about the Killie manager dreadful journalism and even worse decision to print it. 

The season barely underway and he wants him sacked effectively, probably upset a home grown dinosaur like McLeish, Strachan etc was overlooked for the job.

I have no idea how that guy will get on but this article is totally out of order.

 

The really weird thing is, Gordon Parks was blaming everyone but Stubbs when he got emptied by St Mirren last summer.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/oran-kearney-should-beware-st-13251847

Important to remember what a high we were on as a club when Stubbs arrived.

So Stubbs comes in, alienates everyone, buys shite and gets some really terrible results = players' fault.

Alessio does the same = Alessio's fault.

(I'm not saying Alessio shouldn't be sacked, btw - sometimes clubs make mistakes, as any St Mirren fan will know. I'm just pointing out Parks is a c**t.)

Edited July 22, 2019 by Coventry Saint

[vikingTON]

9 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

The only way sacking a manager after 2 games would be acceptable is if there's a fundamental issue with the way the guy works.

Eg Stubbs recruitment was horrendous and had created dressing room unrest fairly early on. Kenny Miller seemingly couldn't cope with the combination of management and playing and so on and so on.

I don't think there's any argument that a terrible result alone is a reason to sack a manager. 

Oh right, so now it is acceptable to sack a manager after two games but only on one set of arbitrary grounds that you've decided are legit but not another. And distinguishing a 'fundamental issue' behind the scenes from results on the park is rarely possible in practice: the results are more often than not the product of the former. 

If a player spectacularly fails to do their job on the park over just 90 minutes of football then they might never play for a club again; if a manager spectacularly fails at their job in the dugout or on the training ground or in the transfer market then they can be emptied just as easily. 

 

Edited July 22, 2019 by vikingTON

[Dons_1988]

5 minutes ago, virginton said:

Oh right, so now it is acceptable to sack a manager after two games but only on one set of arbitrary grounds that you've decided are legit but not another. And distinguishing a 'fundamental issue' behind the scenes from results on the park is rarely possible in football: the results are more often than not the product of the former. 

If a player spectacularly fails to do their job on the park over just 90 minutes then they might never play for a club again; if a manager spectacularly fails at their job in the dugout or on the training ground or in the transfer market then they can be emptied just as easily. 

 

I'm saying that results on a football pitch are an unpredictable variable, let's not forget he won his first game.

You are right in so much that results are often a product of fundamental flaws in managements performance but I would argue that to be the case over a period of time, not 180 minutes of football. IF you are to sack a manager after 2 games, bearing in mind you've gone through an extensive recruitment process and you felt that you've hired someone of real pedigree, I think you need to have significant evidence that the way they are working is significantly flawed. Otherwise, you let them get on with the job for now. If Killie hold on for a 1-0 defeat the other night we're not even having the conversation. That is football.

Alessio may be an absolute dud, who knows, but sacking him is mental unless something really significant is going on behind the scenes. 

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, Dons_1988 said:

I'm saying that results on a football pitch are an unpredictable variable, let's not forget he won his first game.

I'm sure his gold star for narrowly slithering past a part-time rabble that would struggle in Scottish League One over the first ninety minutes of the tie is in the post.

Results aren't a 'variable': they're an output. They're the product of a manager's efforts. And while results are indeed unpredictable in a low-scoring sport like football, that does not mean that you can just write them off when a club fails to meet any sort of credible benchmark for performance. 

Quote

IF you are to sack a manager after 2 games, bearing in mind you've gone through an extensive recruitment process and you felt that you've hired someone of real pedigree, I think you need to have significant evidence that the way they are working is significantly flawed.

Losing a tie over two legs to a part-time rabble from the League of Wales is indeed 'significant evidence'. It also happens to be a far more definitive and fact-based metric than either 'dressing room unrest' or 'horrendous recruitment', both of which are judgment calls and the former only ever disclosed once the decision to empty a manager is already on the cards. 

And the idea that you shouldn't sack a manager after you've just gone through a recruitment process is just a demonstration of the sunk-cost fallacy. Mistakes happen and the only logical response them is to correct them as soon as possible instead of sticking with some dud out of sheer embarrassment that you didn't get the initial pick right. 

Quote

If Killie hold on for a 1-0 defeat the other night we're not even having the conversation. That is football.

But they didn't. And the fact that Kilmarnock were even clinging on to a 1-0 home defeat to some rabble from the League of Wales simply underlines the complete failure of management that occurred. 

[Dons_1988]

2 minutes ago, virginton said:

I'm sure his gold star for narrowly slithering past a part-time rabble that would struggle in Scottish League One over the first ninety minutes of the tie is in the post.

Results aren't a 'variable': they're an output. They're the product of a manager's efforts. And while results are indeed unpredictable in a low-scoring sport like football, that does not mean that you can just write them off when a club fails to meet any sort of credible benchmark for performance. 

Losing a tie over two legs to a part-time rabble from the League of Wales is indeed 'significant evidence'. It also happens to be a far more definitive and fact-based metric than either 'dressing room unrest' or 'horrendous recruitment', both of which are judgment calls and the former only ever disclosed once the decision to empty a manager is already on the cards. 

And the idea that you shouldn't sack a manager after you've just gone through a recruitment process is just a demonstration of the sunk-cost fallacy. Mistakes happen and the only logical response them is to correct them as soon as possible instead of sticking with some dud out of sheer embarrassment that you didn't get the initial pick right. 

But they didn't. And the fact that Kilmarnock were even clinging on to a 1-0 home defeat to some rabble from the League of Wales simply underlines the complete failure of management that occurred. 

Results are variable. A manager cannot have control over the minutiae of a football match. Especially during a period of transition which Killie are going through just now.

We can agree to disagree, you would pull the trigger now if you were Killie chairman, fair enough. 

[morrison1982]

Jake Mulraney signs a new contract with Hearts.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49090296

"The Irish winger, 23, scored 30 goals for the Tynecastle side after joining from ICT last summer."

You sure about that lads?

Heart of Midlothian_ Jake Mulraney signs new deal until 2022 - BBC Sport.pdfHeart of Midlothian_ Jake Mulraney signs new deal until 2022 - BBC Sport.pdf