The Terrible Journalism & Tom English Thread

[BinoBalls]

It's something the English media don't do -- mope about and only focus on a select few clubs.

Ever listen to Radio Five Live on a Saturday?  During a throw-in at a top-level premiership game, the commentator will pipe up with (e.g.) "and Crewe have scored another at Harlepool, so they're now 2 to the good and Hartlepool's relegation worries deepen"... thus informing listeners of a minor scoreline, and passing comment on what it means, then immediately back to the game in hand.  That would never happen in Scotland.

Up here the vast majority of pundits and commentators are willfully disinterested in anything other than a handful of clubs.  Whereas in England they celebrate (e.g.) Wigan's elevation to the premiership, and they don't all cry because Villa are now a mid-table Championship club.  It's a completely different attitude.  The English are secure in their clubs and report on them all.  Even Gordon Strachan was moaning about "finding a way" to get the likes of Hibs back into the top league.  It's embarrassingly short-sighted.

It also influences the average thicko armchair football fan.  The media treat 36 Scottish Clubs with ignorance, therefore the average football fan does likewise.

[Dunning1874]

34 minutes ago, jupe1407 said:

The strongest second tier I can remember was probably 1990-1997 ish. Ourselves, Dunfermline in particular, Morton, Falkirk, St Johnstone and Airdrie all had very good sides for the majority of that time. Even the DABs side that was relegated in 1995 was pretty good.

 

It's pretty mental to look at the squad Dundee United had then and consider that they didn't win the second tier, only made second and the playoff on goal difference and were two points off fourth. Not in a sense of 'how did they struggle that much', because Dunfermline, Morton & St Johnstone were great teams too, but it's crazy to think a team with Ally Maxwell, Christian Dailly, Brian Welsh, Maurice Malpas, Steven Pressley, Dave Bowman, Craig Brewster, Andy McLaren, Owen Coyle and Robbie Winters were in the second tier and weren't out of place in terms of the general standard of the top half sides.

[RussellAnderson]

That attitude is prevalent throughout Scotland, not just in football. Constantly doing ourselves  down, comparing ourselves with our bigger neighbours. In England, they have a hype machine going, there are no 0-0 bore draws, there are 0-0 tactical battles, games aren't dour, they are intriguing. I can't think of a time that a game in England has been described as scrappy, they call it intense, or hard-fought. 

Yes this can get annoying, but you'd rather be too positive than too negative. Are casual fans going to watch  something that the presenter or pundit is describing as shit? Probably not,  they'll watch the game where the presenter is yelling to the rafters how good it is. 

But I suppose it comes from not being a proper country. I've been thinking this for a while. The sooner we cease to be a region and begin to be a country, the sooner we'll start taking ourselves seriously. 

[capt_oats]

Sticking my devils advocate hat on, I genuinely understand the logic of the "natural order" argument that the likes of Willie Miller are fond of. In an ideal world then yeah, you'd hope that the top league would have the biggest, best supported and (crucially) best sides in it. It's difficult to argue that in theory that should make the product easier to sell, promote and market. However, that's not the reality. Having Dundee United in the league didn't make the league any more competitive last season regardless of how big their stadium is or because they won the league in 1983.

And there's the rub. The attitude at the moment isn't "how do we promote what we have in a positive way", instead it becomes viewed as an inconvenience, a reason to be down on the game and becomes a case of "everything's ruined, what's the easiest way to get us back into our comfort zone.". On top of that there seems to be a genuine failure to connect the dots and understand what actually makes games appealing. Which is actually a huge problem as it suggests that those running the game in Scotland don't actually understand it. As has been pointed out, the Hibs v Dundee United game sold out because it meant something rather than simply the fact that two city clubs were playing each other.

The problem is that it's a completely myopic view. The only real frame of reference is what they know and are comfortable with and even that is a complete distortion of reality.

[RussellAnderson]

9 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Sticking my devils advocate hat on, I genuinely understand the logic of the "natural order" argument that the likes of Willie Miller are fond of. In an ideal world then yeah, you'd hope that the top league would have the biggest, best supported and (crucially) best sides in it. It's difficult to argue that in theory that should make the product easier to sell, promote and market. However, that's not the reality. Having Dundee United in the league didn't make the league any more competitive last season regardless of how big their stadium is or because they won the league in 1983.

And there's the rub. The attitude at the moment isn't "how do we promote what we have in a positive way", instead it becomes viewed as an inconvenience, a reason to be down on the game and becomes a case of "everything's ruined, what's the easiest way to get us back into our comfort zone.". On top of that there seems to be a genuine failure to connect the dots and understand what actually makes games appealing. Which is actually a huge problem as it suggests that those running the game in Scotland don't actually understand it. As has been pointed out, the Hibs v Dundee United game sold out because it meant something rather than simply the fact that two city clubs were playing each other.

The problem is that it's a completely myopic view. The only real frame of reference is what they know and are comfortable with and even that is a complete distortion of reality.

It really shows the need for an outsider to come in and contribute. 

The problem then shifts to the treatment of outsiders as shown by the Cathro appointment. 

[BinoBalls]

16 minutes ago, RussellAnderson said:

It really shows the need for an outsider to come in and contribute. 

The problem then shifts to the treatment of outsiders as shown by the Cathro appointment. 

... and as shown by Scottish media attitudes to Alex Thomson. 

[Dunning1874]

37 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Sticking my devils advocate hat on, I genuinely understand the logic of the "natural order" argument that the likes of Willie Miller are fond of. In an ideal world then yeah, you'd hope that the top league would have the biggest, best supported and (crucially) best sides in it

Going off a tangent here, but another problem with the 'natural order' argument is the notion that a club's 'natural' position is fixed in place forever. I don't want to veer too far into a what constitutes a big club debate, but there's no appreciation that clubs can grow or become lesser, and their natural position will change in line with that.

For example, if you asked a cross-section of supporters to put together a list of the biggest clubs in the country in 2004, you could be extremely confident that Dundee would be in the top 6 or 7 in almost everyone's list, and would be above Kilmarnock and Motherwell in almost everyone's list. Yet from 2005 they then spent seven seasons outside the top flight - by the time they were in their seventh season down, could you really say their 'natural' place was in the top flight and that they were a bigger club than Motherwell? They always had the potential in terms of the fanbase to return to being an established top flight club, which they've now realised, but you couldn't argue they were naturally a top flight side when they spent seven seasons out of it due to not being good enough to be promoted.

To illustrate it from the perspective of clubs becoming bigger rather than smaller, if you'd asked someone 20 years ago to list the 20 biggest clubs in Scotland, absolutely no one would have included Hamilton, Ross County or Queen of the South in that list. Now everyone would include them, because they've made themselves bigger clubs through progressing on and off the park. No one would think of Queen of the South as 'naturally' being a third or fourth tier club now as they've spent too long above it despite spending the majority of their history outside the top 20 clubs, just as no one would think of Clyde as being anything above a 'natural' fourth tier club despite spending the majority of their history above it. The natural order can change based on what happens on the pitch. If Hibs or Dundee United end up spending years outside the top flight and become smaller clubs with less potential as a result, then tough shit.

I'm not one for comparisons to England when our countries are so different in footballing terms, but it stands up here. You don't see their media bleating about how Leeds are still one of the biggest clubs in the country and their natural place is in the top flight above diddy clubs like Stoke: they've not been good enough to be promoted, that's their fault and they've no one to blame but themselves for the likes of Bournemouth and Hull overtaking them.

Edited January 9, 2017 by Dunning1874

[RussellAnderson]

The lack of financial stress in the English game means they aren't as reliant on attendances. The away supports that clubs like Hibs, Utd, even Dunfermline and St Mirren, bring to clubs can help them pay the bills. The Highland clubs, through simply being miles away, can't match these, and this probably breeds some degree of "wee team" attitude. Anyone who isn't Glasgow-centric can see that both Highland clubs have grown amazingly over the last ten-ish years and have cemented themselves as top tier, medium size clubs, akin to Killie, Motherwell, Dundee, etc. 

The fact that Hibs can pull a crowd of 30k to a semi final hasn't done them much good compared to the "smaller" sides recently (league wise, obviously they won the cup and a very well done to them)

[The_Kincardine]

23 minutes ago, BinoBalls said:

... and as shown by Scottish media attitudes to Alex Thomson. 

Eh?  I had high hopes of Alex Thomson when he stuck his neb in to matters Rangers.  I was friends with his (then) boss at C4 News and also have a friend who played rugby with him at Oxford.  He also has an estimable CV, the likes of which you and I can only dream of.

His reporting on our club was abject.  That he then hung his coat on the shoogly nail that is Phil 3 names was an embarrassment.  IMO MSM has treated him kindly.  Excoriating is too good for him.

[The Grass Is Greener.]

Most people ignore the media up here because it's a load of nonsense, why would you let these rags annoy you when they say we're Prem clubs in waiting. Most quotes like that are from ex players and it's simply to fill papers. 

 

There isn't a Hibs fan out here who feels we've been hard done by or feels sorry for ourselves. Quite the opposite actually, you just have to look how the fans are backing the club. We got relegated and we deserved to go down but we're trying to put that right, who gives a shit what's printed in a paper.

[1320Lichtie]

The only time I feel like there's been a club in a wrong league, as an example is when we finished 2nd in league one, and 1st, 3rd and 4th went up to the championship after Rangers died because 3rd and 4th reached the play off final. Understand it but it was a total piss take we were clear in second over the course of the season.

The other club that were in a wrongful position is the Newco, they should've been admitted back into the lowland league and had to work up from there.

Hibs and United are where they deserve to be just now. Hibs come up they'll do very well if they keep squad they've got. If United do they'd be battling it out with the bottom 6 to avoid relegation.

Eta: basically I wasn't basing what I said on the size of the clubs.

[Swello]

4 minutes ago, The Grass Is Greener. said:

Most people ignore the media up here because it's a load of nonsense, why would you let these rags annoy you when they say we're Prem clubs in waiting. Most quotes like that are from ex players and it's simply to fill papers. 

 

There isn't a Hibs fan out here who feels we've been hard done by or feels sorry for ourselves. Quite the opposite actually, you just have to look how the fans are backing the club. We got relegated and we deserved to go down but we're trying to put that right, who gives a shit what's printed in a paper.

To be fair, it's almost never supporters that trot out all the "premier club in waiting" pish - even Rangers fans didn't try that line much, especially after the 6-1 playoff drubbing.

[williemillersmoustache]

25 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Eh?  I had high hopes of Alex Thomson when he stuck his neb in to matters Rangers.  I was friends with his (then) boss at C4 News and also have a friend who played rugby with him at Oxford.  He also has an estimable CV, the likes of which you and I can only dream of.

His reporting on our club was abject.  That he then hung his coat on the shoogly nail that is Phil 3 names was an embarrassment.  IMO MSM has treated him kindly.  Excoriating is too good for him.

Rangers cheated at football: the fraudulent silverware must go

The STAR STAR STAR 's hatred of him is an absolute mystery. 

[The_Kincardine]

1 minute ago, williemillersmoustache said:

Rangers cheated at football: the fraudulent silverware must go

The STAR STAR STAR 's hatred of him is an absolute mystery. 

No idea if The Star hates him.  That article, though, is a parody of itself.  I'm sure it resonates with you, though.  You'[re never one to let a tawdry cliche about Rangers go by.

[williemillersmoustache]

Just now, The_Kincardine said:

No idea if The Star hates him.  That article, though, is a parody of itself.  I'm sure it resonates with you, though.  You'[re never one to let a tawdry cliche about Rangers go by.

I'll let this slide as I am about to agree with you on a different thread. 

[The_Kincardine]

Just now, williemillersmoustache said:

I'll let this slide as I am about to agree with you on a different thread. 

You generally agree with me.  We both ken this.  I'd buy you a pint or three were it not for your silly blindspot!

[DA Baracus]

8 minutes ago, williemillersmoustache said:

Rangers cheated at football: the fraudulent silverware must go

The STAR STAR STAR 's hatred of him is an absolute mystery. 

Every time Mr Black is mentioned in that article I heard this in my head;

 

 

 

[williemillersmoustache]

4 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

You generally agree with me.  We both ken this.  I'd buy you a pint or three were it not for your silly blindspot!

No thanks, I know when I'm way out of my depth  

[RussellAnderson]

1 hour ago, The Grass Is Greener. said:

Most people ignore the media up here because it's a load of nonsense, why would you let these rags annoy you when they say we're Prem clubs in waiting. Most quotes like that are from ex players and it's simply to fill papers. 

 

There isn't a Hibs fan out here who feels we've been hard done by or feels sorry for ourselves. Quite the opposite actually, you just have to look how the fans are backing the club. We got relegated and we deserved to go down but we're trying to put that right, who gives a shit what's printed in a paper.

Aye. If we're talking problems in Scottish football, the serious fans of non-OF clubs are pretty  much bottom of the list. Tap bois the lot of us.

[HibeeJibee]

Dished out 4 greenies in a page here, heady days.

It's not at the same level of those cited already, but the idea that some pundits and observers will trot-out at Scottish Cup time or when something nostalgic arises on Sportsound that Clyde are some kind of "sleeping giant" strikes me as similar. Yes, we all remember them almost getting into the SPL in the early 2000s; but since then they got double relegated and finished bottom of SFL3 - and have been in the bottom tier for something like 7yrs? Their crowds have been steadily around the 500-600 mark. I think I'm right in saying they've never played in the Premier Division? If they weren't from Glasgow - once - and good in the 1950s it wouldn't be talked about. No-one seems to hark for Airdrie, East Fife or Clydebank to return to tier 2, or Ayr or Dumbarton to grace the top division once more. Maybe St Mirren will go the same way.

Edited January 9, 2017 by HibeeJibee