When will indyref2 happen?

[DeeTillEhDeh]

On yer bike, mate...

I know - fat fingers on my tablet and predictive text. 

 

 

For some reason peddling isn't in my tablet's dictionary - Gincardine is though!!!!

 

[emoji8]

 

 

[The_Kincardine]

3 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

15 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

On yer bike, mate...

I know - fat fingers on my tablet and predictive text.

It always is...

[DeeTillEhDeh]

It always is...

[The_Kincardine]

2 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

 

 

 

 

40 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Don't engage the oblique troll.

 

[HTG]

46 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

I hear many anecdotes, Malky. This is your experience. I'd argue it certainly isn't the experience of the majority of users of the NHS here, as shown by the survey data. However, I'm not arguing this happened to you. There are a few things in your story that you describe that I suspect are not entirely accurate, but I accept what you've said is true from your point of view. I can't comment on GP waiting times, although as @Inanimate Carbon Rod, I'm married to a GP, so I can see things from her side.

I'll put some questions to you: Why do you think waiting times in general practice and hospitals are long? What could we do about this? How could we improve? What would be required for this in terms of staffing, funding, organisation etc?

This isn't a political matter, this is a societal matter. I appreciate you have some pretty entrenched views, but why don't we try to have a constructive discussion?

Thank f**k you're here. Very well said - as with your previous post. Malky is just in grievance politics mode - which is where he's been since he came on here while the only show gets on with the job whilst winning big everywhere. He's a total fucking loser. 

[Malky3]

1 hour ago, Cyclizine said:

I hear many anecdotes, Malky. This is your experience. I'd argue it certainly isn't the experience of the majority of users of the NHS here, as shown by the survey data. However, I'm not arguing this happened to you. There are a few things in your story that you describe that I suspect are not entirely accurate, but I accept what you've said is true from your point of view. I can't comment on GP waiting times, although as @Inanimate Carbon Rod, I'm married to a GP, so I can see things from her side.

I'll put some questions to you: Why do you think waiting times in general practice and hospitals are long? What could we do about this? How could we improve? What would be required for this in terms of staffing, funding, organisation etc?

This isn't a political matter, this is a societal matter. I appreciate you have some pretty entrenched views, but why don't we try to have a constructive discussion?

It is a societal matter, of course, but there are political solutions.

One of the contributing factors as far as I can see it was the introduction of free prescriptions by the SNP. Those who were low paid or unemployed already got free prescriptions so the policy benefited only those who could afford prescriptions. The SNP argued that the administrative cost of managing it meant it wasn't costing much at the time to offer free prescriptions to everyone. But what is clear today - and feel free to correct me - is that we now have many GP appointments were patients are in looking for a free prescription for medication that would be available over the counter if only the were willing to pay for it. Re-introducing prescription charges would fix that issue. 

Another issue appears to be frivolous appointments. My last GP surgery used to have a notice on the wall that showed how many "no show" appointments they had in the last  days. Now I don't want to paint a picture that I was always in, in truth I've visited the GP maybe three times in the last four years. However the worst I ever saw it was 80 missed appointments in a week. Years ago I was friendly with a former NHS manager who had spent a few years working in California. He told me that they didn't have the same problem. When people paid to see a GP they would ensure they turned up at the appointed time. That would appear to me to be one way a political solution could be implemented, either by introducing a refundable deposit system, a system of fines for those who miss appointments, or a straight forward charge to see a GP for those who can afford it.

We also clearly have fitness and dietary issues in Scotland. Finding ways to boost access to facilities to get people fit should be a driver for any government. Yet the SNP in councils that they ran implemented sharp increases in the cost of booking fees for council facilities that particularly impacted on juvenile football clubs. I also have a Vitality Health Policy - interestingly they have rewards programmes for their members who actively work out and keep fit, obviously because when their members do they are less likely to become ill and to cost them money. The Scottish Government would do well to look to see if there was a way to roll that kind of reward scheme out to the broader society. 

There's loads more but one last one for now. You talked about the student fees in England but Martin Lewis has been at pains to point out that he believes the scheme is incorrectly named and that instead of being called a loan - which many people will never pay back in full - he says it should be called a Graduate Tax. I'd agree with the principle of charging graduates a higher rate of tax as they repay the cost of their advanced education. How many nurses trained for free in Scotland by the Scottish taxpayer are now working in England or abroad? I'd have stopped that loop hole if I was in politics. After all it can't possibly be progressive, fair, or even morally right to charge bin men and care assistants for the education of solicitors, bankers and politicians. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Malky3

[Malky3]

3 minutes ago, HTG said:

Thank f**k you're here. Very well said - as with your previous post. Malky is just in grievance politics mode - which is where he's been since he came on here while the only show gets on with the job whilst winning big everywhere. He's a total fucking loser. 

Biggest losers are the Scottish Nationalists. 

What was the result in 2014?  Dreams shattered everywhere and an endless flood of tears from those who do grievance politics the best. Still Jim Sillars has called you all out. Independence isn't going to happen. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

 

So you're an oblique troll?

[emoji8]

[Cyclizine]

4 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

It is a societal matter, of course, but there are political solutions.

One of the contributing factors as far as I can see it was the introduction of free prescriptions by the SNP. Those who were low paid or unemployed already got free prescriptions so the policy benefited only those who could afford prescriptions. The SNP argued that the administrative cost of managing it meant it wasn't costing much at the time to offer free prescriptions to everyone. But what is clear today - and feel free to correct me - is that we now have many GP appointments were patients are in looking for a free prescription for medication that would be available over the counter if only the were willing to pay for it. Re-introducing prescription charges would fix that issue. 

Another issue appears to be frivolous appointments. My last GP surgery used to have a notice on the wall that showed how many "no show" appointments they had in the last  days. Now I don't want to paint a picture that I was always in, in truth I've visited the GP maybe three times in the last four years. However the worst I ever saw it was 80 missed appointments in a week. Years ago I was friendly with a former NHS manager who had spent a few years working in California. He told me that they didn't have the same problem. When people paid to see a GP they would ensure they turned up at the appointed time. That would appear to me to be one way a political solution could be implemented, either by introducing a refundable deposit system, a system of fines for those who miss appointments, or a straight forward charge to see a GP for those who can afford it.

We also clearly have fitness and dietary issues in Scotland. Finding ways to boost access to facilities to get people fit should be a driver for any government. Yet the SNP in councils that they ran implemented sharp increases in the cost of booking fees for council facilities that particularly impacted on juvenile football clubs. I also have a Vitality Health Policy - interestingly they have rewards programmes for their members who actively work out and keep fit, obviously because when their members do they are less likely to become ill and to cost them money. The Scottish Government would do well to look to see if there was a way to roll that kind of reward scheme out to the broader society. 

There's loads more but one last one for now. You talked about the student fees in England but Martin Lewis has been at pains to point out that he believes the scheme is incorrectly named and that instead of being called a loan - which many people will never pay back in full - he says it should be called a Graduate Tax. I'd agree with the principle of charging graduates a higher rate of tax as they repay the cost of their advanced education. How many nurses trained for free in Scotland by the Scottish taxpayer are now working in England or abroad? I stopped that loop hole if I was in politics. 

Free prescriptions... ah, that old chestnut. In England, over 90% of prescriptions are dispensed free of charge and it was a similar number here before free prescriptions were introduced. There is undeniably a significant financial burden in administering this system (and it's complex, with lots of exclusions).  The financial argument for free prescriptions, especially primary/secondary prevention stuff is that it reduces significant (and expensive) problems further down the line, so is actually cost effective.

Not entirely sure what you mean by "frivolous" appointments (although these are exactly what you get in fee-for-service systems like the US, where there's an incentive for doctors to see patients as they make money from them).  Charging for appointments: the answer no-one's ever thought of... I'll ask you how much you think it should cost to see a GP? How much for a hospital outpatient appointment? How will you get people to pay? How will you deal with defaulters? How will you administer the deposit system? Do you think this will be cost effective? I can tell you this has been looked at (by multiple people of different political colours) and it is not. Another issue with charging for appointments is that it becomes a disincentive to attend for some people. I'd prefer people to attend early with a significant medical problem, as it's often cheaper and more effective to get things sorted earlier.

I agree, we need to encourage people to take a bit more responsibility. Folk don't really want to do this though. This is where "Nudge" approaches have been shown to work, things like minimum-pricing on alcohol or higher taxes on refined sugar. I suspect you'd argue this is Nanny State badness, though. I think you'll find it's not just the SNP run administrations that have increased fees for sports facilities. Certainly my local Tory/Lib/Lab council has. They've even closed the swimming pool...

How exactly is your "vitality policy" going to work in the general population? Are you suggesting if you get your exercise regime signed off you get a reduction in your National Insurance contributions?

I don't know how many nurses trained for free in Scotland have moved to England, you obviously do, so tell me. I'd say the vast majority will still be in Scotland. Are you arguing that being charged £27,000 to become a nurse isn't a disincentive?

 

[The_Kincardine]

2 hours ago, Malky3 said:

Jim Sillars has always been the only Scottish Nationalist worth paying attention to - and here's what he's saying today

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/snp-deputy-leader-nicola-sturgeon-indyref-2-vote-123212249.html

 

Interesting article.  I liked:

 “That 45% can march every weekend, while the Unionist majority goes shopping and remains unpersuaded.

“We in the minority know it is those shoppers we need to discuss things with, in a civilised manner, and convert.

And, of course, I agree with him.  The indyref2 movement is left in the hands of the Glengarried-up Tartan-clad gonks with their "Tory c***s" placards.  Though that's likely the authentic voice of the Natterati.

[Malky3]

5 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Interesting article.  I liked:

 “That 45% can march every weekend, while the Unionist majority goes shopping and remains unpersuaded.

“We in the minority know it is those shoppers we need to discuss things with, in a civilised manner, and convert.

And, of course, I agree with him.  The indyref2 movement is left in the hands of the Glengarried-up Tartan-clad gonks with their "Tory c***s" placards.  Though that's likely the authentic voice of the Natterati.

i voted for Jim Sillars in Govan back in the late 1980s. I've never been a fan of Scottish Nationalism or Socialism, but Sillars was someone I could listen to all day long. Whether you agreed completely with him or not he was uttely sincere - something that has been missing from the SNP for decades. 

The Nationalist movement would do well to listen to Sillars rather than write him off as some do as an old man. In the meantime though I'll get back to my shopping 

[Malky3]

17 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

Free prescriptions... ah, that old chestnut. In England, over 90% of prescriptions are dispensed free of charge and it was a similar number here before free prescriptions were introduced. There is undeniably a significant financial burden in administering this system (and it's complex, with lots of exclusions).  The financial argument for free prescriptions, especially primary/secondary prevention stuff is that it reduces significant (and expensive) problems further down the line, so is actually cost effective.

Not entirely sure what you mean by "frivolous" appointments (although these are exactly what you get in fee-for-service systems like the US, where there's an incentive for doctors to see patients as they make money from them).  Charging for appointments: the answer no-one's ever thought of... I'll ask you how much you think it should cost to see a GP? How much for a hospital outpatient appointment? How will you get people to pay? How will you deal with defaulters? How will you administer the deposit system? Do you think this will be cost effective? I can tell you this has been looked at (by multiple people of different political colours) and it is not. Another issue with charging for appointments is that it becomes a disincentive to attend for some people. I'd prefer people to attend early with a significant medical problem, as it's often cheaper and more effective to get things sorted earlier.

I agree, we need to encourage people to take a bit more responsibility. Folk don't really want to do this though. This is where "Nudge" approaches have been shown to work, things like minimum-pricing on alcohol or higher taxes on refined sugar. I suspect you'd argue this is Nanny State badness, though. I think you'll find it's not just the SNP run administrations that have increased fees for sports facilities. Certainly my local Tory/Lib/Lab council has. They've even closed the swimming pool...

How exactly is your "vitality policy" going to work in the general population? Are you suggesting if you get your exercise regime signed off you get a reduction in your National Insurance contributions?

I don't know how many nurses trained for free in Scotland have moved to England, you obviously do, so tell me. I'd say the vast majority will still be in Scotland. Are you arguing that being charged £27,000 to become a nurse isn't a disincentive?

 

Aw, sorry! My mistake. I thought you said you wanted a constructive discussion. Instead I raise points and you take on the role of expert and write them off as ridiculous. I don't think there is much point in engaging any further to be honest with you. 

[Baxter Parp]

Malky Is really spectacularly ignorant

FTFY.

[The_Kincardine]

5 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

i voted for Jim Sillars in Govan back in the late 1980s. I've never been a fan of Scottish Nationalism or Socialism, but Sillars was someone I could listen to all day long. Whether you agreed completely with him or not he was uttely sincere - something that has been missing from the SNP for decades. 

The Nationalist movement would do well to listen to Sillars rather than write him off as some do as an old man. In the meantime though I'll get back to my shopping 

I was still in Scotland when he formed his SLP and, even if it was a busted flush, he was always worth listening to.  I bet he and Big Margo had some rammies as they could both create havoc in an empty house.

As for the Natters listening to Sillers?  Only if he has an opinion on which outfits to pull out of the dressing-up box as that is how the Natters want to conduct political discourse.

[Dan Steele]

And in the face of several excellent Cyclizine posts, oor Malky admits defeat.

[The_Kincardine]

44 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

 

I don't know how many nurses trained for free in Scotland have moved to England, you obviously do, so tell me. I'd say the vast majority will still be in Scotland. Are you arguing that being charged £27,000 to become a nurse isn't a disincentive?

I culled a lot of your post as you suffer from the same lack of brevity as my big pal Malky.

Who is being charged £27,000 to become a nurse?

[Brother Blades]

If the current Scottish administration provided gold plated limousine transportation to a fully trained, Emmy accredited surgeon to deal with an ingrown toenail, Malky & Blinky would still be raging about the NHS under the Nats! Ignore them! I plead!

[HTG]

55 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

Free prescriptions... ah, that old chestnut. In England, over 90% of prescriptions are dispensed free of charge and it was a similar number here before free prescriptions were introduced. There is undeniably a significant financial burden in administering this system (and it's complex, with lots of exclusions).  The financial argument for free prescriptions, especially primary/secondary prevention stuff is that it reduces significant (and expensive) problems further down the line, so is actually cost effective.

Not entirely sure what you mean by "frivolous" appointments (although these are exactly what you get in fee-for-service systems like the US, where there's an incentive for doctors to see patients as they make money from them).  Charging for appointments: the answer no-one's ever thought of... I'll ask you how much you think it should cost to see a GP? How much for a hospital outpatient appointment? How will you get people to pay? How will you deal with defaulters? How will you administer the deposit system? Do you think this will be cost effective? I can tell you this has been looked at (by multiple people of different political colours) and it is not. Another issue with charging for appointments is that it becomes a disincentive to attend for some people. I'd prefer people to attend early with a significant medical problem, as it's often cheaper and more effective to get things sorted earlier.

I agree, we need to encourage people to take a bit more responsibility. Folk don't really want to do this though. This is where "Nudge" approaches have been shown to work, things like minimum-pricing on alcohol or higher taxes on refined sugar. I suspect you'd argue this is Nanny State badness, though. I think you'll find it's not just the SNP run administrations that have increased fees for sports facilities. Certainly my local Tory/Lib/Lab council has. They've even closed the swimming pool...

How exactly is your "vitality policy" going to work in the general population? Are you suggesting if you get your exercise regime signed off you get a reduction in your National Insurance contributions?

I don't know how many nurses trained for free in Scotland have moved to England, you obviously do, so tell me. I'd say the vast majority will still be in Scotland. Are you arguing that being charged £27,000 to become a nurse isn't a disincentive?

 

Absolutely. Fucking. Felt.

[HTG]

4 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

If the current Scottish administration provided gold plated limousine transportation to a fully trained, Emmy accredited surgeon to deal with an ingrown toenail, Malky & Blinky would still be raging about the NHS under the Nats! Ignore them! I plead!

I suspect Blinky may have no more fo say until his next incarnation after his pish elsewhere. 

[The_Kincardine]

4 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:

If the current Scottish administration provided gold plated limousine transportation to a fully trained, Emmy accredited surgeon to deal with an ingrown toenail, Malky & Blinky would still be raging about the NHS under the Nats! 

So would we all.  That is about the shiteist post I have ever read on here.