When will indyref2 happen?

[hehawhehaw]

Why has the UK got a hard border with France?

[AUFC90]

32 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

Theresa May was saying it again today. If we are independent we won't get into to the EU. Oh and the absolute best one of the day was that we wouldn't get access to the 'UK single market'. Anyone that seriously believes that Scotland and England wont have tariff free trade with each other is off their heads or thick or a combination of the two.

 

22 minutes ago, hehawhehaw said:

Why has the UK got a hard border with France?

^^^^This guy.

[AyrExile]

1 hour ago, AUFC90 said:

Theresa May was saying it again today. If we are independent we won't get into to the EU. Oh and the absolute best one of the day was that we wouldn't get access to the 'UK single market'. Anyone that seriously believes that Scotland and England wont have tariff free trade with each other is off their heads or thick or a combination of the two.

Let's say Scotland remains in the Eu and England doesn't. By your theory Scotland will get access to the best prices in the Eu and also trade tarriff free with the Uk. Are you telling me that England will sit back and allow Eu goods to enter via Scotland thus undercutting their own companies? Fiction fit for a white paper. 

[AUFC90]

4 minutes ago, AyrExile said:

Let's say Scotland remains in the Eu and England doesn't. By your theory Scotland will get access to the best prices in the Eu and also trade tarriff free with the Uk. Are you telling me that England will sit back and allow Eu goods to enter via Scotland thus undercutting their own companies? Fiction fit for a white paper. 

That's exactly what I'm saying just as that's exactly what will happen with ROI because it's in the UK's economic interest just as much as Scotlands. I dread to think how many jobs in the north of england are reliant on trade with scotland and the thousands of lorries of goods travelling up and down the motorway every day. Please tell me what benefits there is, for either side, by making mutual trade harder ?

Edited December 20, 2016 by AUFC90

[AntonyP]

1 hour ago, Mr Heliums said:

But (a) the Scottish electorate is being ignored – we voted against exit; and (b) the manifesto clearly stated what might happen if Scotland was removed from the EU against its will.

You can argue whether we were voting as the UK or not – but we certainly didn't vote for the sort of hard brexit that's now being proposed and what the First Minister proposed today is perfectly reasonable.  It's hardly bluff and bluster – that description falls to the nonsense we were told during the Independence referendum about safeguarding our EU membership.

So the 1.6 million votes for Remain and the 1 million votes for Leave that were cast in Scotland were not counted were they? That is the only way that you would be being ignored.

You were given the equal chance to vote on it just like everyone else was, your vote was worth just as much as everyone else's. Scotland doesn't have a will, neither does England, Wales or Northern Ireland, all of us as the UK has a will, and the will of the majority is for the UK to leave the EU, even if it will cause a lot of damage to the Country.

No one, and I repeat, NO ONE, voted for what type of Brexit we should have. Everyone was asked to vote on whether they wanted the UK to remain in the EU or to leave the EU, we were not asked exactly how we wanted it happen, whether that be a 'hard', 'soft' or a 'red, blue and white brexit.

As for your Indyref and the safeguarding of the EU Membership, it did. There was no promise of guaranteed EU Membership, just a warning that leaving the UK would mean you leave the EU. If you had voted for Independence, Scotland would be out of the EU right now according to the SNP's White Paper, which penned the date on Independence as March 2016, and as of day 1 of being an independent Country, Scotland would not have been in the EU.

[AUFC90]

1 minute ago, AntonyP said:

So the 1.6 million votes for Remain and the 1 million votes for Leave that were cast in Scotland were not counted were they? That is the only way that you would be being ignored.

You were given the equal chance to vote on it just like everyone else was, your vote was worth just as much as everyone else's. Scotland doesn't have a will, neither does England, Wales or Northern Ireland, all of us as the UK has a will, and the will of the majority is for the UK to leave the EU, even if it will cause a lot of damage to the Country.

No one, and I repeat, NO ONE, voted for what type of Brexit we should have. Everyone was asked to vote on whether they wanted the UK to remain in the EU or to leave the EU, we were not asked exactly how we wanted it happen, whether that be a 'hard', 'soft' or a 'red, blue and white brexit.

As for your Indyref and the safeguarding of the EU Membership, it did. There was no promise of guaranteed EU Membership, just a warning that leaving the UK would mean you leave the EU. If you had voted for Independence, Scotland would be out of the EU right now according to the SNP's White Paper, which penned the date on Independence as March 2016, and as of day 1 of being an independent Country, Scotland would not have been in the EU.

Another one with a crystal ball. Has another country ever succeeded from an EU member ? If the answer is no then how on earth do you know what way the politics would be played. I reckon there would have been common sense everywhere and a smooth transition to EU membership but I don't know and neither do you.

[AntonyP]

1 hour ago, AUFC90 said:

Theresa May was saying it again today. If we are independent we won't get into to the EU. Oh and the absolute best one of the day was that we wouldn't get access to the 'UK single market'. Anyone that seriously believes that Scotland and England wont have tariff free trade with each other is off their heads or thick or a combination of the two.

Tariff free trade would only exist whilst Scotland remained in the UK and out of the EU, or Scotland left the UK but was not in the EU. If Scotland was in the EU and the UK wasn't, Scotland would be bound by the trade rules and tariffs put in place during the UK's exit of the EU.

[AUFC90]

8 minutes ago, AntonyP said:

Tariff free trade would only exist whilst Scotland remained in the UK and out of the EU, or Scotland left the UK but was not in the EU. If Scotland was in the EU and the UK wasn't, Scotland would be bound by the trade rules and tariffs put in place during the UK's exit of the EU.

We'll see if ROI have open trade with the UK then. UK government representatives over there discussing it all the time points to a common sense approach. 

[AyrExile]

10 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

That's exactly what I'm saying just as that's exactly what will happen with ROI because it's in the UK's economic interest just as much as Scotlands. I dread to think how many jobs in the north of england are reliant on trade with scotland and the thousands of lorries of goods travelling up and down the motorway every day. Please tell me what benefits there is, for either side, by making mutual trade harder ?

Firstly 60 percent of Scotland business is with Uk whereas the Uks trade with Scotland is very small. One country relies on this relationship far more heavily than the other. Surely then every business etc who has a presence in england or wishes to trade with them would then just relocate to Scotland getting the best of both worlds? Do you think the uk/English who left the Eu to negotiate better trade deals would then just allow a huge chunk of business to piss off to Scotland? As for these jobs at risk in the north of England that's an unfortunate side of brexit. Over time these would get replaced when new deals come on line. Hopefully as this process goes along the penny will drop for the loonys wishing independence that an initial similar outcome would occur in the event of Scotland voting yes. 

[AUFC90]

2 minutes ago, AyrExile said:

Firstly 60 percent of Scotland business is with Uk whereas the Uks trade with Scotland is very small. One country relies on this relationship far more heavily than the other. Surely then every business etc who has a presence in england or wishes to trade with them would then just relocate to Scotland getting the best of both worlds? Do you think the uk/English who left the Eu to negotiate better trade deals would then just allow a huge chunk of business to piss off to Scotland? As for these jobs at risk in the north of England that's an unfortunate side of brexit. Over time these would get replaced when new deals come on line. Hopefully as this process goes along the penny will drop for the loonys wishing independence that an initial similar outcome would occur in the event of Scotland voting yes. 

And how many billions of pounds and thousands of jobs does that 60% of trade represent to England ? This is not peanuts we're talking about here. Again I'll ask. What benefits are there to Scotland and England not having open trade with each other ?

Edited December 20, 2016 by AUFC90

[AntonyP]

3 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

Another one with a crystal ball. Has another country ever succeeded from an EU member ? If the answer is no then how on earth do you know what way the politics would be played. I reckon there would have been common sense everywhere and a smooth transition to EU membership but I don't know and neither do you.

Another one that just ignores everything he doesn't like or agree with...

It was made more than clear back in 2014 that Scotland would be outside of the EU if it left the UK as it would become a totally new Country. No amount of bluff and bluster from the SNP can change this. Continuing to bury their heads in the sand and offering the public things they cannot deliver is not going to win over the public to vote for Independence.

The common sense approach is what will happen. Scotland will leave the UK, become a new country and will then become eligible apply to join the EU, once it has satisfied the criteria to join it will become a full member. This is the standard entry process that is required of all Countries wishing to join the EU, and there is little reason for Scotland to be granted exception from this.

[AUFC90]

9 minutes ago, AntonyP said:

Another one that just ignores everything he doesn't like or agree with...

It was made more than clear back in 2014 that Scotland would be outside of the EU if it left the UK as it would become a totally new Country. No amount of bluff and bluster from the SNP can change this. Continuing to bury their heads in the sand and offering the public things they cannot deliver is not going to win over the public to vote for Independence.

The common sense approach is what will happen. Scotland will leave the UK, become a new country and will then become eligible apply to join the EU, once it has satisfied the criteria to join it will become a full member. This is the standard entry process that is required of all Countries wishing to join the EU, and there is little reason for Scotland to be granted exception from this.

Who made it clear ? Politicians during a referendum campaign ? Means absolutely noting. If you read my comment I said by this time Dec 2016 Scotland would have been independent for roughly 9 months and i firmly believe that in that timescale( Sept 2014 to now) we would have joined the EU with relative ease.So you genuinely believe that a western european country which is relatively rich and is larger than about 10 EU members would literally not be able to gain entry to the EU because it had a democratic vote to leave an EU member, with permission by said member ? Bearing in mind that Scotland has been paying into the Eu, as part of the UK for much longer than the majority of it's members. We aint Turkey and we aint on the fringes of Europe. How many countries have satisfied ALL criteria that have joined in the last 20 years ?

Edited December 20, 2016 by AUFC90

[AyrExile]

3 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

And how many billions of pounds and thousands of jobs does that 60% of trade represent to England ? This is not peanuts we're talking about here. Again I'll ask. What benefits are there to Scotland and England not having open trade with each other ?

Yes it's a lot but it's also a lot less than England will be losing by leaving the Eu anyway. If both Scotland and England are out of Eu then free trade makes perfect sense. What is the point of England/Uk setting a tariff to trade with Eu countries then letting all the goods in tariff free via the back door? 

[AntonyP]

4 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

We'll see if ROI have open trade with the UK then. UK government representatives over there discussing it all the time points to a common sense approach. 

Probably not. As an EU Member it would be bound by the trade agreements the EU had put in place with the UK.

[AyrExile]

1 minute ago, AUFC90 said:

If you read my comment I said by this time Dec 2016 Scotland would have been independent for roughly 9 months and i firmly believe that in that timescale( Sept 2014 to now) we would have joined the EU with relative ease.So you genuinely believe that a western european country which is relatively rich and is larger than about 10 EU members would literally not be able to gain entry to the EU because it had a democratic vote to leave an EU member, with permission by said member ? How many countries have satisfied ALL criteria that have joined in the last 20 years ?

With the oil price at a record low and the Snp chasing our finance industry down south would the macaroon sales be enough to balance the books and meet the entrance criteria?

[doulikefish]

1 minute ago, AyrExile said:

With the oil price at a record low and the Snp chasing our finance industry down south would the macaroon sales be enough to balance the books and meet the entrance criteria?

Eh??

[AUFC90]

3 minutes ago, AntonyP said:

Probably not. As an EU Member it would be bound by the trade agreements the EU had put in place with the UK.

We can only see if ROI will be bound by EU trade agreements then. I suspect you'll be surprised.

[AUFC90]

3 minutes ago, AyrExile said:

With the oil price at a record low and the Snp chasing our finance industry down south would the macaroon sales be enough to balance the books and meet the entrance criteria?

Oil price at a record low? Projected to make a good few billion this year due weak pound and higher oil price. Billions that Scotland will receive no benefit from either as taxes or improving a the current account deficit and keeping a good credit rating.

When are they moving down south ?

If the UK doesn't get a deal on services the financial industry will be on the next plane to hamburg but that's OK because the UK voted for it.

[AUFC90]

13 minutes ago, AyrExile said:

Yes it's a lot but it's also a lot less than England will be losing by leaving the Eu anyway. If both Scotland and England are out of Eu then free trade makes perfect sense. What is the point of England/Uk setting a tariff to trade with Eu countries then letting all the goods in tariff free via the back door? 

I'd love to see the value of the pound and the fluctuations in the FTSE if the UK government simultaneously announced a shite trade deal with the EU and Scotland. Yes it's a less than us but its tens of billions. These are peoples jobs,businesses, wealth creators. Common sense always prevails, ESPECIALLY with trade.

[AyrExile]

2 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

Oil price at a record low? Projected to make a good few billion this year due weak pound and higher oil price. Billions that Scotland will receive no benefit from either as taxes or improving a the current account deficit and keeping a good credit rating.

When are they moving down south ?

If the UK doesn't get a deal on services the financial industry will be on the next plane to hamburg but that's OK because the UK voted for it.

This was based on a yes vote being successful as you mentioned earlier. What was the oil price like 9 months ago and how would good would the trading books look for the period. The yes side also had no interest in the financial community despite us having a decent sized industry in Edinburgh. With all the uncertainty and currency nonsense the bulk of this would have vanished down south. London is also a global centre and even when business is lost through brexit I still expect it will be the biggest financial centre in Europe.