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When will indyref2 happen?

Indyref2  

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6 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Many Scottish Nationalists feel ideologically driven towards penalising the rich and taxing wealth creators heavily. Indeed the SNP has already increased personal taxation in Scotland penalising people for working in Scotland and been lauded for it by their party membership. 

Hi Malky,

Do you think people who are better off should pay the same tax as those with less?

Do you think "Wealth creators" would be able to "Create wealth" if not for the state providing education, health and social care to those same people? Should they not pay back to society what society has given them?

Can you answer any of my previous questions yet, with actual evidence?

Thanks.

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23 minutes ago, Ross. said:

No. Just stop incentivising people to move there in the first place, which is essentially what the London wage subsidy does.

It isn't just the wage subsidy that skews the market.  Help to Buy rules, ISA disparities and a million other (OK possbile exageration) policies that subsidise London and help perpetuate the situation so that it costs more to live in London than elsewhere.

Edited by strichener

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Interesting debate on Referendums (Scotland) Bill   -  Live on the Parliament channel.

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I would love to visit the planet Alex Rowley inhabits. Must be fun there... nutjob.

Interesting debate on Referendums (Scotland) Bill   -  Live on the Parliament channel.

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25 minutes ago, jakedee said:

I would love to visit the planet Alex Rowley inhabits. Must be fun there... nutjob.

 

Neil Findlay must be from that same planet.

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1 hour ago, Ross. said:

Hi Malky,

Do you think people who are better off should pay the same tax as those with less?

Do you think "Wealth creators" would be able to "Create wealth" if not for the state providing education, health and social care to those same people? Should they not pay back to society what society has given them?

Can you answer any of my previous questions yet, with actual evidence?

Thanks.

Hi Ross......again.....

First to put this into context, I think I'm a realist whilst you are a bit of a dreamer. I'm prepared to use official statistics, expert opinions, and financial models that have proven track records of success along with a wee dose of personal common sense, whilst you and your fellow Nationalists prefer to ignore official statistics and expert opinions preferring instead to quote economic luminaries like Michael Stewart off Sportscene, and you dream of a land of unicorns and fairies where nothing needs to be paid for, and a wee shake of the SNP money tree will solve all societies ills. 

You appear to think that an Independent Scotland will be able to hold on to our talent and stop them from following the lure of higher wages in London, New York, San Francisco, Dubai and Frankfurt by punitively taxing them for their success. You also seem to think that our indigenous talent will be happy with the prospect of higher taxes and lower wages whilst seeing their new Scottish Government use their taxes to offer subsidies to foreign companies trying to entice them to come to Scotland to compete with their businesses. 

So to answer your questions. 

1. Yes, those that are better off should pay more tax - as they have always done in the UK - however I would like to see the tax rate reduced so that the UK becomes one of the cheapest places to work, to set up and run businesses, and where success is celebrated rather than punished. It would also have this amazing spin off of increasing the overall tax take. (See Laffer Curve) 

2. Yes I do. That's the thing about wealth creators and entrepreneurs. 

3. I have answered this many times already. The £12.6Bn and the justification around it are contained within the Scottish Government produced GERs Report - the veracity of which is confirmed by professional standards, by financial experts, oh and also by the Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, who has previously admitted that the "deficit" as she called it would have to be cut substantially in the event of Independence, and by the Finance Minister Derek MacKay who has stated quite openly that the GERs Report is a fair and accurate assessment of Scotland's current fiscal position. I'm sure you know how to work Google. Feel free to have a shot. 

Finally can I throw in a wee question for you. 

How the hell will an Independent Scotland stop firms in London from offering incentives to anyone to go there? 

Edited by Malky3

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4 hours ago, Kuro said:

There was an interesting study done showing the amount of business cities would lose as a result of hs2.  The worst bit for whatever reason was Aberdeen, which would lose 250m per year or thereabouts.  We're literally paying billions for a railway that doesn't even come to this country that will cost us.billions in lost.business.  Yay UK.

Silly Kuro doesn't understand the Barnett Formula and consequentials. Silly Kuro. 

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1 hour ago, Malky3 said:

Many Scottish Nationalists feel ideologically driven towards penalising the rich and taxing wealth creators heavily. Indeed the SNP has already increased personal taxation in Scotland penalising people for working in Scotland and been lauded for it by their party membership. 

That's a left wing thing. Left wingers think that because people at the bottom do the actual work that they are equal wealth creators.

They are not.

Actually there are very few real wealth creators out there. Without them we'd still be living in caves because most other people lack the vision necessary to make societal change happen. On the other side of the coin, it seems that wealth creators can't help but treat their workers like shit. Neither of these attitudes are great.

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3 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Hi Ross......again.....

First to put this into context, I think I'm a realist whilst you are a bit of a dreamer. I'm prepared to use official statistics, expert opinions, and financial models that have proven track records of success along with a wee dose of personal common sense, whilst you and your fellow Nationalists prefer to ignore official statistics and expert opinions preferring instead to quote economic luminaries like Michael Stewart off Sportscene, and you dream of a land of unicorns and fairies where nothing needs to be paid for, and a wee shake of the SNP money tree will solve all societies ills. 

You appear to think that an Independent Scotland will be able to hold on to our talent and stop them from following the lure of higher wages in London, New York, San Francisco, Dubai and Frankfurt by punitively taxing them for their success. You also seem to think that our indigenous talent will be happy with the prospect of higher taxes and lower wages whilst seeing their new Scottish Government use their taxes to offer subsidies to foreign companies trying to entice them to come to Scotland to compete with their businesses. 

So to answer your questions. 

1. Yes, those that are better off should pay more tax - as they have always done in the UK - however I would like to see the tax rate reduced so that the UK becomes one of the cheapest places to work, to set up and run businesses, and where success is celebrated rather than punished. It would also have this amazing spin off of increasing the overall tax take. (See Laffer Curve) 

2. Yes I do. That's the thing about wealth creators and entrepreneurs. 

3. I have answered this many times already. The £12.6Bn and the justification around it are contained within the Scottish Government produced GERs Report - the veracity of which is confirmed by professional standards, by financial experts, oh and also by the Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, who has previously admitted that the "deficit" as she called it would have to be cut substantially in the event of Independence, and by the Finance Minister Derek MacKay who has stated quite openly that the GERs Report is a fair and accurate assessment of Scotland's current fiscal position. I'm sure you know how to work Google. Feel free to have a shot. 

Hi Malky,

1) The UK is already one of the lowest taxed countries in Western Europe for both personal and corporate taxation. What reductions would you recommend and how do you expect they would impact on the tax take? What impact do you think increases would have?

2) Please define how you "Create wealth"? Surely, at best, these people are simply "Wealth accumulators", "Wealth redistributors" or "Wealth relocators"?

3) Please provide evidence, complete with analysis and links that provide firm evidence that an independent Scotland would be facing an annual £12,6bn deficit.

Thanks.

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1 minute ago, oaksoft said:

That's a left wing thing. Left wingers think that because people at the bottom do the actual work that they are equal wealth creators.

They are not.

Actually there are very few real wealth creators out there. Without them we'd still be living in caves because most other people lack the vision necessary to make societal change happen. On the other side of the coin, it seems that wealth creators can't help but treat their workers like shit. Neither of these attitudes are great.

It's certainly a left wing thing. It's the politics of envy which really is a sad, destructive way to run a country as we've seen all across the world in history. 

Some wealth creators seem to be poor employers, I agree with that, but not all. And those who are willing to learn from history will know that there are many great examples of employers whose businesses were made even more successful because of the positive working environment they created. We've got record levels of employment in the UK currently and were probably moving towards a situation, if it didn't already exist, where good employees with a solid track record are able to pick and choose who they wanted to work for. 

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1 hour ago, Ross. said:

 

OK, I agree with your first paragraph.

Secondly, if you remove the London "subsidy" you are effecting a wage cut. Also, even without that increase in money (which disappears many times over in rent costs), you'll never stop people wanting to live amongst the energy of places like London. There is nowhere in the UK with the levels of energy found in Central London. You'll never inspire people to move to the likes of Hull, Glenbrothes or Bradford over London.

Most companies have only 1-5 employees. The vast majority are small and micro businesses (I think I read somewhere that it's 90-95% of businesses in the UK). We only have a relatively small number of companies bigger than that and a vanishingly small number of large companies. Fresh graduates looking for a career will tell you that.

If relocation policies are working then what problem are we actually discussing here? You are describing one instance - a drop of water in a stream.

It doesn't matter if the range of answers is small. As long as those answers are compelling (and all three of them absolutely are) that's the end of the story. That's where vast swathes of people seem to want to work and live. It's not for anyone else to tell them they are wrong to want to do so. You can't just create prestige. As I said elsewhere, you will never be able to get Hull or Glenrothes to compete with London for prestige. Trying to do so is a waste of time and money.

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10 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

That's a left wing thing. Left wingers think that because people at the bottom do the actual work that they are equal wealth creators.

I tell you what..... everybody at the bottom of the pile should just stop working.

Then we'll see how much longer the ladders stay up for the real wealth creators without nobody at the bottom to hold those ladders up.

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1 hour ago, strichener said:

It isn't just the wage subsidy that skews the market.  Help to Buy rules, ISA disparities and a million other (OK possbile exageration) policies that subsidise London and help perpetuate the situation so that it costs more to live in London than elsewhere.

It's almost impossible to own a home in London and rental costs outstrip the wage subsidy. Help to Buy doesn't work when house prices are £400k and above and you work in a £60k IT job.

And yet people still flock there.

It's all about the energy and the prospect of "gold pavements" in that city. You'll never, ever be able to stop that IMO.

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9 minutes ago, BawWatchin said:

I tell you what..... everybody at the bottom of the pile should just stop working.

Then we'll see how much longer the ladders stay up for the real wealth creators without nobody at the bottom to hold those ladders up.

Why don't you do just that.

Seriously. Why don't you?

If it's that easy to create wealth go and do it.

Setup up your own company right now and get on with finding clients tomorrow.

I will never understand why people ruin their lives working for others under shit conditions and poor wages.

I will always advocate people going it alone over taking a employment job.

I do think the next generation of workers will progressively move towards self employment and I really wish schools would talk to kids more about that option.

There is a wealth of advice, funding and support available for young people who want to go for this. It's a tragedy that we still perpetuate the nonsense that you have to got to Uni and then into employment, family, kids, pension, death. That is fucking grim!

People will always want their hair cut, their windows cleaned, their gardens sorted out, their cars washed and a whole host of other things which cost pennies to start a business offering those services.

Edited by oaksoft

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28 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Hi Ross......again.....

First to put this into context, I think I'm a realist whilst you are a bit of a dreamer. I'm prepared to use official statistics, expert opinions, and financial models that have proven track records of success along with a wee dose of personal common sense, whilst you and your fellow Nationalists prefer to ignore official statistics and expert opinions preferring instead to quote economic luminaries like Michael Stewart off Sportscene, and you dream of a land of unicorns and fairies where nothing needs to be paid for, and a wee shake of the SNP money tree will solve all societies ills. 

You appear to think that an Independent Scotland will be able to hold on to our talent and stop them from following the lure of higher wages in London, New York, San Francisco, Dubai and Frankfurt by punitively taxing them for their success. You also seem to think that our indigenous talent will be happy with the prospect of higher taxes and lower wages whilst seeing their new Scottish Government use their taxes to offer subsidies to foreign companies trying to entice them to come to Scotland to compete with their businesses. 

So to answer your questions. 

1. Yes, those that are better off should pay more tax - as they have always done in the UK - however I would like to see the tax rate reduced so that the UK becomes one of the cheapest places to work, to set up and run businesses, and where success is celebrated rather than punished. It would also have this amazing spin off of increasing the overall tax take. (See Laffer Curve) 

2. Yes I do. That's the thing about wealth creators and entrepreneurs. 

3. I have answered this many times already. The £12.6Bn and the justification around it are contained within the Scottish Government produced GERs Report - the veracity of which is confirmed by professional standards, by financial experts, oh and also by the Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, who has previously admitted that the "deficit" as she called it would have to be cut substantially in the event of Independence, and by the Finance Minister Derek MacKay who has stated quite openly that the GERs Report is a fair and accurate assessment of Scotland's current fiscal position. I'm sure you know how to work Google. Feel free to have a shot. 

Finally can I throw in a wee question for you. 

How the hell will an Independent Scotland stop firms in London from offering incentives to anyone to go there? 

Image result for sanctimoneous

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2 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Why don't you do just that.

Seriously. Why don't you?

If it's that easy to create wealth go and do it.

Setup up your own company right now and get on with finding clients tomorrow.

I will never understand why people ruin their lives working for others under shit conditions and poor wages.

I will always advocate people going it alone over taking a employment job.

I do think the next generation of workers will progressively move towards self employment and I really wish schools would talk to kids more about that option.

There is a wealth of advice, funding and support available for young people who want to go for this. It's a tragedy that we still perpetuate the nonsense that you have to got to Uni and then into employment, family, kids, pension, death. That is fucking grim!

Great idea....

So tell me, what do you think would happen if everybody suddenly stopped working for anybody else and only did jobs they actually liked?

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3 minutes ago, BawWatchin said:

Great idea....

So tell me, what do you think would happen if everybody suddenly stopped working for anybody else and only did jobs they actually liked?

Is that a serious question?

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19 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

It's all about the energy and the prospect of "gold pavements" in that city. You'll never, ever be able to stop that IMO.

It's not about stopping it. I agree, people always have and always will be seduced by the bright lights of the big city. It's about slowing it down and trying to at least make sure a few folk who might go there don't. The economy of London and some of the South East and South West of England are operating on a completely different level to rUK. The longer that goes, the bigger the divergence, the more difficult it becomes to make economic decisions that work for the whole country. It is a big part of the reason that the UK is an economic clusterfuck. The UK is crying out for federalism, as an absolute minimum. The current approach just doesn't work.

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