When will indyref2 happen?

[Bairnardo]

Will continue skim reading your posts at best because your sass gets in the way of your points then. Do I say champ here?

Also, he's a total fanny. You should factor that in too IMO

[welshbairn]

38 minutes ago, virginton said:

At no point ever have 62% of the Scottish electorate expressed a desire to both remain in the UK and the EU, so your claim that they would be ignored is absolute nonsense as usual. It is a four option choice and combining Scottish independence with the ability to stay in the EU is a stronger set than Scottish independence alone.

What is truly laughable is that people are so ridiculously feart of holding another vote on those stakes or the usual wails of derision from media that would already be hostile regardless that they would rather place the immediate fate of their country in the hands of 600 constituencies over which Scottish voters can have no say, with the most unpopular leader of the opposition in political history and Jo fucking Swinson stepping up to the plate instead. It's sheer madness. 

Where would the new Yes voters come from to replace those who felt betrayed by the SNP forcing a hard brexit? The polls at present indicate only 50/50. Logic's fine, a means to an end and all that, but if the last 5 years have shown us anything it's that emotion trumps it every time. The SNP collaborating with Johnson to force through his hard brexit would have been about the only guaranteed way to resurrect Scottish Labour from the ashes and the demise of the SNP.

[Baxter Parp]

1 hour ago, virginton said:

Ah yes, so let's just wait for all the pieces to magically fall together now, what with the gammon vote split and the Remain vote united across the u... oh wait that's the opposite way round isn't it?

How is that an answer to "The mandate hasn't been met?"

1 hour ago, virginton said:

So not at all relevant to this discussion right here then. 

It's an example of a plan that's as brainless as yours, so yes, it's relevant.

1 hour ago, virginton said:

Spare me this utter claptrap. Politics is about prioritising your interests and using the best means at your disposal to bring them about. It is not some sort of morality play where the SNP or any other organisation must act as good guys because you say so. 

No, the SNP are the good guys because they aren't c***s like the LibDems or Labour or the Tories and it should stay that way.  You can't call for a better kind of politics and then shaft half the country. It's a simple enough concept to grasp.

1 hour ago, virginton said:

Except that you can't actually hold a legal referendum when Boris says no to one. Game over.

If the last three years should have taught you anything, it's that there are no longer any sure things in UK politics.  Like a Tory majority, for instance.

1 hour ago, virginton said:

You said that signing deals with their enemies was what made Scottish Labour collapse. The Lib Dems were not even remotely an enemy and the Labour collapse began fully seven years before the independence referendum even took place. When serious political scientists rather than chumps like yourself are identifying the causes of Scottish Labour's terminal decline, 'signing up with the Tories in Better Together' will be part of the epilogue and not the main analysis.

2007 was the last time they won anything and they haven't since, that's a fact.  They've disappeared into irrelevance because they were united with the Tories in Better Together and that's another fact. QED.

1 hour ago, virginton said:

Oooft, what a blubbering manchild you are. The most important skill in politics bar none is dissimulation - the SNP has already been doing this successfully for years, ever since Salmond wisely changed the party's angle to merely gaining control of the Scottish Executive in 2007 instead of calling for a referendum then and there. 

It's really not my fault that you have developed some utterly deluded fantasy about politics being cleared of all deception by the simple act of independence. 

Oh f**k off. You don't found a country by being a c**t.  We're not as despicable as you'd like us to be and that can only be a good thing. I'd cut my card in half if we did any such thing. It would be used against us at any referendum and we would lose simply because of impatient dimwits like you.

[Donathan]

Is “Scottish sovereignty of the people” and actual legally enforceable standard or is it just a traditional convention? I’d imagine any legal action post section-30 refusal might come down to that

[Baxter Parp]

Is “Scottish sovereignty of the people” and actual legally enforceable standard or is it just a traditional convention? I’d imagine any legal action post section-30 refusal might come down to that

"On 4 July 2018, the House of Commons officially endorsed the principles of the Claim of Right, agreeing that the people of Scotland are sovereign and that they have the right to determine the best form of government for Scotland's needs"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claim_of_Right_1989

[Londonwell]

5 hours ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

I don't think VT is too far off in his analysis here IMO, but there's no chance the Tories would have given permanent section 30 powers to Holyrood in any deal. 

We may have got a referendum (possibly with strings attached).

But that’s where his whole argument falls down though. For a clearly smart guy, It surprises me that he’s went off on a mad rant about a fantasy situation which would have never come to pass. The Tories would never have touched this ‘SNP bribe’ of his. That’s all quite apart from the political fallout for the SNP for such a thing. Utter shite. 

I’m also unsure why Granny Danger has written off the issue ending up in the courts on the basis of ‘no-one talking about it’. There is a plan b and my best guess is this would be it . 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Londonwell

[O'Kelly Isley III]

A brainless idea which could just as easily result in Holyrood being closed down and all powers quite understandably being returned to Westminster.
You also forget that Westminster could alternatively cut off the money it sends up here to fund Holyrood.
This is the problem with extremist ideas fueled by ego. They tend to be really stupid ideas.

Come in Mr Quisling, we've been expecting you.....

[Mastermind]

Has anyone come up with a credible alternative if Westminster don’t grant a Section 30?
Its all very well us howling that’s “undemocratic” and “unsustainable” etc but the cold, hard fact is they could refuse us one until the end of time
What are the genuine alternatives?
I only ask as not a hope in hell are a Tory majority government giving Nicola a Section 30

#TheJourney

[Granny Danger]

4 hours ago, Londonwell said:

But that’s where his whole argument falls down though. For a clearly smart guy, It surprises me that he’s went off on a mad rant about a fantasy situation which would have never come to pass. The Tories would never have touched this ‘SNP bribe’ of his. That’s all quite apart from the political fallout for the SNP for such a thing. Utter shite. 

I’m also unsure why Granny Danger has written off the issue ending up in the courts on the basis of ‘no-one talking about it’. There is a plan b and my best guess is this would be it . 

If your going to refer to my posts at least have the courtesy to read them.  The issue of taking the matter to the courts is relatively new in terms of it being widely discussed, if it were a real possibility it would have been seriously debated more widely in the past.

I do not think it will work, unfortunately.  If I’m correct then we are back to square one.

If we end up with a Tory majority government there will be a Hard Brexit and I believe the demand for Independence will grow, it will be interesting to see how far people will push for it and what steps they will take.

 

[Londonwell]

3 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

If your going to refer to my posts at least have the courtesy to read them.  The issue of taking the matter to the courts is relatively new in terms of it being widely discussed, if it were a real possibility it would have been seriously debated more widely in the past.

I do not think it will work, unfortunately.  If I’m correct then we are back to square one.

If we end up with a Tory majority government there will be a Hard Brexit and I believe the demand for Independence will grow, it will be interesting to see how far people will push for it and what steps they will take.

 

Unsure why you think I didn’t read your posts, that’s what I referred to just not in so many words. As it is your argument is bizarre and stands up to zero scrutiny. Fwiw the people I talk to it has been discussed for a while, perhaps the reason you haven’t seen it debated is we’re not at that stage yet.

A S30 has not yet been requested and rejected, at any point since 2014. The mandate for the SNP to ask for one hasn’t even technically been achieved yet. But it is being talked about in private and public and the reason for that  is because there is a serious lack of other options if the Tories tell us to bolt, that is the part I agree with VT on. Not sure if you’ve been watching the tele recently but there’s been a few instances of UK Gov having  been taken to court with Joanna Cherry leading the charge...

You don’t think going through the courts will work, you don’t say why, but no problem with that, I don’t know if it’ll work either, completely outside my knowledge base. However, you don’t think it will happen because according to you, “it hasn’t been debated more widely”, I’m afraid is up there with the stupidity of voting for Brexit whilst you oppose it. 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Londonwell

[Ross.]

9 hours ago, oaksoft said:

A brainless idea which could just as easily result in Holyrood being closed down and all powers quite understandably being returned to Westminster.

You also forget that Westminster could alternatively cut off the money it sends up here to fund Holyrood.

This is the problem with extremist ideas fueled by ego. They tend to be really stupid ideas.

The outcomes you suggest would almost certainly result in a huge move towards independence. If anything I think the actions suggested by @MixuFixit would only ever happen by a Scottish Government looking to try and make Westminster react exactly as you suggest.

[Dons_1988]

Westminster closing Holyrood and withdrawing funding to Scotland would definitely kill the independence movement stone dead. 

[BawWatchin]

9 hours ago, oaksoft said:

You also forget that Westminster could alternatively cut off the money it sends up here to fund Holyrood.

They can cut off that £30bn if they want. We'll just cut off the £60bn we send down there. Oh wait a minute.... that would make us independent huh?

 

[SweeperDee]

Just now, BawWatchin said:

They can cut off that £30bn if they want. We'll just cut off the £60bn we send down there. Oh wait a minute.... that would make us independent huh?

 

And their water...

[HTG]

17 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

 

Unfortunately she has pished away her goodwill and is now a single-issue harpy who is little more than a joke figure.

Away and don't talk pish. In 2017, the SNP ran a campaign based on their record in govt.  The unionists up here - particularly the Tories ran on zero policies and nothing but "No to IndyRef". They've done it at every by election, council election and European election since. And they're doing it now. 

The SNP needs to get stuck into the battle and counter their shite. 

The only reason there isn't a proper debate on policy up here is because the Yoons don't want one. So if it's a single issue election in England it's just a different single issue election in Scotland - caused entirely by the way England voted in 2016. 

She doesn't need your goodwill. She needs the people of Scotland - who are getting shat on by the way UK democracy works - to get out and vote for her.  Rabids like you don't count as you'd take a good arse shafting every time for the sake of Queen and Blighty.

[HTG]

Just to add that if the SNP wins this election in Scotland, the pish about needing to win in the next Scottish elections to even secure a S30 order can get in the sea. 

If they win Scotland in December, they'll be doing so by the same rules that Boris is likely to win England. That'll be enough for him to undertake any Brexit he likes rather than go through a PR election too where eventually only every 6th vote counts. Essentially the argument here is that the SNP must win 2 single issue elections and then a referendum. That's on top of wins in the GE of 2015, the SP of 2016 and the GE of 2017. 

To quote whoever is in charge now Ruth has fucked off, "why won't they listen?"

[Guest Jedi]

It is quite strange that we have moved from a situation in the past when even Margaret Thatcher agreed that if the SNP ever won a majority of Scottish seats in a GE that that was a sufficient mandate for Independence. I take the point that yet another 'win' this time around, 'should' be sufficient to hold a 2nd ref, on top of victories in 2015,16 and 17. However, with the fog of Brexit still to even start clearing in the next year, I'm still not sure that the circumstances would be propitious prior to 2022.

The only card which Unionists have left I reckon (apart from of course the £12.6 billion black hole which can be countered), is to say 'look how long Brexit took to negotiate, and what a shambles it was, do you really want another 5 plus years of wrangling over how Scotland leaves the UK on top of that'? Of course there would have to be negotiations on share of the national debt, what happens with armed forces, embassies, trade etc, but it shouldn't take years. However, in the midst of Brexit expect that to be played.

Its not saying pretty please to Johnson if the SNP win again in 2021, its called democracy.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Jedi

[Antlion]

43 minutes ago, Jedi said:

It is quite strange that we have moved from a situation in the past when even Margaret Thatcher agreed that if the SNP ever won a majority of Scottish seats in a GE that that was a sufficient mandate for Independence. I take the point that yet another 'win' this time around, 'should' be sufficient to hold a 2nd ref, on top of victories in 2015,16 and 17. However, with the fog of Brexit still to even start clearing in the next year, I'm still not sure that the circumstances would be propitious prior to 2022.

The only card which Unionists have left I reckon (apart from of course the £12.6 billion black hole which can be countered), is to say 'look how long Brexit took to negotiate, and what a shambles it was, do you really want another 5 plus years of wrangling over how Scotland leaves the UK on top of that'? Of course there would have to be negotiations on share of the national debt, what happens with armed forces, embassies, trade etc, but it shouldn't take years. However, in the midst of Brexit expect that to be played.

Its not saying pretty please to Johnson if the SNP win again in 2021, its called democracy.

I look forward to “Better Together” being reduced to defending the UK with “look what a fucking disaster the UK is - you’ll just create a worse one if you try and do what we’re forcing you to do already by breaking up a union”. Quite a humiliating comedown from their 2014 grandstanding. 

[BawWatchin]

1 hour ago, Antlion said:

I look forward to “Better Together” being reduced to defending the UK with “look what a fucking disaster the UK is - you’ll just create a worse one if you try and do what we’re forcing you to do already by breaking up a union”. Quite a humiliating comedown from their 2014 grandstanding. 

That basically was their great big grandstand in 2014.

[BFTD]

It is quite strange that we have moved from a situation in the past when even Margaret Thatcher agreed that if the SNP ever won a majority of Scottish seats in a GE that that was a sufficient mandate for Independence.

A quote that only demonstrates that she thought there'd be more chance of hell freezing over. Which, TBF, she's now in a prime position to comment on. Funny how Salmond's "once in a generation" comment is to be treated literally, but not that one, thought.

Speaking of which, I mind thinking at the time Eck was making an obvious call for people to get out and vote on an issue that there'd never had a chance to before. I now see the undertone of "...because they'll never give us another one."