BawWatchin Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 9 minutes ago, Frank Grimes said: Has anyone come up with a credible alternative if Westminster don’t grant a Section 30? Its all very well us howling that’s “undemocratic” and “unsustainable” etc but the cold, hard fact is they could refuse us one until the end of time What are the genuine alternatives? I only ask as not a hope in hell are a Tory majority government giving Nicola a Section 30 We could drag them to the European Courts of Human Rights. All their talk of denying a section 30 order is pure bluster so they don't damage their overall vote count. But there's no way they'll deny it after the election is over....... but then again, Boris seems to enjoy getting his arse handed to him in court. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Grimes Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Nice idea Mixu but that would be a slow burner to full independence I agree in isolation though 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Steele Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, MixuFixit said: "Scotland will do what's best for it's people" rather than "Scotland's voice is being ignored." I like that and it would make a good headline for leaflets detailing all that has happened so far and what they would like in the near future. Very much a proactive 'on the front foot' message. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londonwell Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 30 minutes ago, Frank Grimes said: Has anyone come up with a credible alternative if Westminster don’t grant a Section 30? Its all very well us howling that’s “undemocratic” and “unsustainable” etc but the cold, hard fact is they could refuse us one until the end of time What are the genuine alternatives? I only ask as not a hope in hell are a Tory majority government giving Nicola a Section 30 It’ll go through the courts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuro Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 34 minutes ago, MixuFixit said: I've said before that the Scottish Government should just start doing things in reserved areas where they would be popular locally. Drug safe rooms as an example. The Police want them and will look the other way if they were started up. Make the message "Scotland will do what's best for it's people" rather than "Scotland's voice is being ignored." Over a long period just make things normal by convention and make Westminster increasingly irrelevant. There are limits to that obviously but I think the PR of it working or of it provoking a heavy handed response from England both play to the nationalist cause over the long term. How would you insure a drug room if it's illegal? First junkie dies scotgov are in court. Their hands are tied. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'Kelly Isley III Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Has anyone come up with a credible alternative if Westminster don’t grant a Section 30? Its all very well us howling that’s “undemocratic” and “unsustainable” etc but the cold, hard fact is they could refuse us one until the end of time What are the genuine alternatives? I only ask as not a hope in hell are a Tory majority government giving Nicola a Section 30It may be worth reading up on the Velvet Revolution in which Czechoslovakia became the Czech Republic and Slovakia. I'm not suggesting that it forms an exact template but it does demonstrate how a seemingly immovable political dial can be reset without recourse to civil war or serious violence. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 57 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said: It may be worth reading up on the Velvet Revolution in which Czechoslovakia became the Czech Republic and Slovakia. I'm not suggesting that it forms an exact template but it does demonstrate how a seemingly immovable political dial can be reset without recourse to civil war or serious violence. Czechoslovakia consisted of two equal federal republics under the old socialist constitution; so when two democratic governments emerged with a different approach to the key task of Westernising their economies, there was no means of coercing one side to the other's agenda. That is not even remotely similar to the United Kingdom, which is a unitary state which hands out powers to devolved institutions by Westminster's sufferance alone. If the government of the day in London doesn't want to grant a vote then there is nothing that can be done about it. This is the trap that the SNP have walked right into by sticking with the total loser 'Remain Alliance' to the very end of the last parliament, when they should have cut a side deal to get an imediate lifeboat off this sinking ship and full vote-holding powers formally handed over to Holyrood for good. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jedi Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Still think we need to wait until after the Scottish parliament election. Hopefully, a good result this time round in the GE to build more momentum. Then, assuming Brexit goes through (looking more like a Tory majority now so every chance at this stage), people will have seen the further mess of trying to negotiate a FTA with Europe over the next 2 years leading up to the Holyrood elections. Fight that election on a straight 'SNP govt and we will hold a 2nd Ref' ticket, and even Westminster would be pushed to block it then. Next to no chance post GE of getting it through due to the ongoing Brexit shambles though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 This will get right up some people's noses, Malky. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 8 minutes ago, virginton said: they should have cut a side deal With whom? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said: With whom? With the successive Conservative PMs who needed SNP votes to try and get their deal through Parliament. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said: With whom? The one with Boris that would sink their chances of winning a Referendum in the foreseeable future. You know, Wing's great idea. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, Jedi said: Still think we need to wait until after the Scottish parliament election. Hopefully, a good result this time round in the GE to build more momentum. Then, assuming Brexit goes through (looking more like a Tory majority now so every chance at this stage), people will have seen the further mess of trying to negotiate a FTA with Europe over the next 2 years leading up to the Holyrood elections. Fight that election on a straight 'SNP govt and we will hold a 2nd Ref' ticket, and even Westminster would be pushed to block it then. Guilt tripping and asking pretty please to a moral vacuum like Boris Johnson is not a credible political strategy, the SNP enjoys no greater leverage at all even if the above were to happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, virginton said: With the successive Conservative PMs who needed SNP votes to try and get their deal through Parliament. We should have facilitated Brexit despite being loudly and staunchly against it from the start? Madness. The media would have had a field day and if the referendum failed we would still be in the shit and out of the EU. Making deals with Tories is absolute anathema and would end in disaster. Who would trust us after such a thing? Edited November 13, 2019 by Baxter Parp 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Just now, welshbairn said: The one with Boris that would sink their chances of winning a Referendum in the foreseeable future. You know, Wing's great idea. There's not a shred of evidence that Scottish independence would be determined either by weepy, won't somebody think of Manchester mewling. The starting base of support does not change, the fundamentally sound case for Scotland remaining in Europe v Gammonland isolation is still in play. And the idea that the current cul-de-sac is in any way a better route to Scottish independence is utterly absurd. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 21 minutes ago, virginton said: Czechoslovakia consisted of two equal federal republics under the old socialist constitution; so when two democratic governments emerged with a different approach to the key task of Westernising their economies, there was no means of coercing one side to the other's agenda. That is not even remotely similar to the United Kingdom, which is a unitary state which hands out powers to devolved institutions by Westminster's sufferance alone. If the government of the day in London doesn't want to grant a vote then there is nothing that can be done about it. This is the trap that the SNP have walked right into by sticking with the total loser 'Remain Alliance' to the very end of the last parliament, when they should have cut a side deal to get an imediate lifeboat off this sinking ship and full vote-holding powers formally handed over to Holyrood for good. Czechs and balances, mate. Most voters in Scotland are Unionists so it's a healthy backstop. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Grimes Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said: Czechs and balances, mate. Most voters in Scotland are Unionists so it's a healthy backstop. A point which, ironically, Unionist parties are actually scared shitless to test again Wonder why 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said: We should have facilitated Brexit despite being loudly and staunchly against it from the start? Madness. The sole priority of the SNP is to secure Scotland's opposition to Brexit by securing a viable exit lane from the Gammonland fantasies prevailing in the rest of the UK. And on this key point, it has sacrificed all tactical options in exchange for a completely useless, cuddly toy image and some moral grandstanding and wailing from the sidelines to come. Quote The media would have had a field day and if the referendum failed we would still be in the shit and out of the EU. As opposed to having no referendum at all and being out of the EU, which is now the racing certainty outcome for Scotland in 2020. A superbly executed political strategy then! Quote Making deals with Tories is absolute anathema and would end in disaster. Who would trust us after such a thing? Making mutually beneficial deals with your enemies is how grown-up politics works. You do not get independence by only playing with the powers that you like and had the SNP leadership grasped this then it wouldn't be finding itself in this mess. Edited November 13, 2019 by vikingTON 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 11 minutes ago, virginton said: the fundamentally sound case for Scotland remaining in Europe v Gammonland isolation is still in play. This is just nonsense and isn't even a voting option. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 24 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said: This will get right up some people's noses, Malky. There’s more than a modicum of truth to these sentiments. I remember the very positive British wide support there was for Sturgeon after the Brexit TV debates. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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