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When will indyref2 happen?

Indyref2  

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5 hours ago, Antlion said:

It happened three centuries ago when Scotland lost its statehood. Scotland has less of a national identity within the UK than France, Germany or the UK do within the EU.

I can't see any advantages for the UK outwith the EU. None whatsoever. To say there are any is the fantasy being peddled by little Britons like yourself.

But it's about the direction of travel. The EU is moving towards a single state devoid of national diversity and determination whereas the UK  has no interest in denying  Welsh English, Scottish or N.Irish  culture or identity.  Protecting a few culinary recipies is cold compensation from the EU when your whole identity has been subsumed and suppressed by a foreign, out of touch elite.

Btw ...they say imitation is the purest form of flattery so every time you take one of my statements and change a couple of words to suit your prejudice it fills me with an enormous sense of pride and satisfaction.

5 hours ago, Alan Stubbs said:

^^^citation needed^^^

Not really !  It's what the EU does. Same laws, regulations, currency, same fiscal policy, Free movement of people, eventually same  language, eventually same  army, therefore foreign policy

That's all fine if you like that idea, but the UK, and slowly the rest of Europe is realsiing it's not so good.

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4 hours ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

^^^ Gets Slovenia and Slovakia muddled up IMO

Like I do with yer sister and yer maw, ha ha ( only joking, dinnae take offence now!)

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2 hours ago, McSpreader said:

But it's about the direction of travel. The EU is moving towards a single state devoid of national diversity and determination whereas the UK  has no interest in denying  Welsh English, Scottish or N.Irish  culture or identity.  Protecting a few culinary recipies is cold compensation from the EU when your whole identity has been subsumed and suppressed by a foreign, out of touch elite.

Btw ...they say imitation is the purest form of flattery so every time you take one of my statements and change a couple of words to suit your prejudice it fills me with an enormous sense of pride and satisfaction.

Not really !  It's what the EU does. Same laws, regulations, currency, same fiscal policy, Free movement of people, eventually same  language, eventually same  army, therefore foreign policy

That's all fine if you like that idea, but the UK, and slowly the rest of Europe is realsiing it's not so good.

So you're scared of the EU (at some undisclosed future point, when the UK would have to agree) doing to the UK what the UK has done to Scotland already (same army, currency, regulations, language, et alia), yet you actually like what the UK has done to Scotland and want that absorption and lack of statehood to remain. That hardly makes sense.

Edited by Antlion

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1 minute ago, Antlion said:

So you're scared of the EU (at some undisclosed future point, when the UK would have to agree) doing to the UK what the UK has done to Scotland already (same army, currency, regulations, language, et alia), yet you actually like what the UK has done to Scotland and want that absorption and lack of statehood to remain. That hardly makes sense.

Post independence,  the SNP wants to keep the Pound andthe Monarchy. It wants to stay in the EU and Nato. Yet you want that absorption and lack of economic and constitutional independence to remain. You don't want real independence, just subservience to the rule of the unelected Eurocrats - like the Irish and the Plastic Paddies over here.

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6 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said:

Post independence,  the SNP wants to keep the Pound andthe Monarchy. It wants to stay in the EU and Nato. Yet you want that absorption and lack of economic and constitutional independence to remain. You don't want real independence, just subservience to the rule of the unelected Eurocrats - like the Irish and the Plastic Paddies over here.

A bit like how you voted for more subservience to the rule of the unelected British bureaucrats, lords and cabinet. Any word on those powers you claimed would be coming to Holyrood if we left the EU? If I recall, you were quite strident that this would happen, but sketchy on the details of how. Has the method materialised, or are you conceding that this was another ruse to get people to empower the UK government (which has one representative in Scotland) to make decisions for us?

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9 minutes ago, Antlion said:

A bit like how you voted for more subservience to the rule of the unelected British bureaucrats, lords and cabinet. Any word on those powers you claimed would be coming to Holyrood if we left the EU? If I recall, you were quite strident that this would happen, but sketchy on the details of how. Has the method materialised, or are you conceding that this was another ruse to get people to empower the UK government (which has one representative in Scotland) to make decisions for us?

We await the Government's plan that was announced today - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38224169.

Btw, what does the SNP want - a trade deal (like Canada with 98% of tariffs abolished) or full membership of the Single Market? All we hear is vague talk about "access".  

Sturgeon has not said anything about what the Scottish Government wants on key matters like fisheries. There aren't even sketchy details. It seems that the Scottish Government was not prepared for a Leave victory either.

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7 minutes ago, Bishop Briggs said:

We await the Government's plan that was announced today - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38224169.

Btw, what does the SNP want - a trade deal (like Canada with 98% of tariffs abolished) or full membership of the Single Market? All we hear is vague talk about "access".  

Sturgeon has not said anything about what the Scottish Government wants on key matters like fisheries. There aren't even sketchy details. It seems that the Scottish Government was not prepared for a Leave victory either.

Ah, so awaiting the goodwill and decisions of the UK government it is. That doesn't sound like Scotland is really at the heart of decision-making, but it really does betray the Brexiters' flimsy and evasive claims that Scotland will get more powers.

Sturgeon has repeatedly stated she wants full membership of the single market.

Edited by Antlion

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3 hours ago, McSpreader said:

Not really !  It's what the EU does. Same laws, regulations, currency, same fiscal policy, Free movement of people, eventually same  language, eventually same  army, therefore foreign policy

Citation definitely needed :unsure2:

I'll ignore the rest of them seeing as they apply way more to the countries of the UK than the EU.

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14 minutes ago, Antlion said:

Ah, so awaiting the goodwill and decisions of the UK government it is. That doesn't sound like Scotland is really at the heart of decision-making, but it really does betray the Brexiters' flimsy and evasive claims that Scotland will get more powers.

Sturgeon has repeatedly stated she wants full membership of the single market.

Sadly, that is the reality. I cannot make Government policy in Edinburgh or Westminster.  Lord Kerr, Sturgeon's  EU adviser who drafted the Lisbon Treaty, told her that full membership of the Single Market is not possible - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37852628."

"Lord Kerr is advising First Minister of Scotland Nicola Sturgeon on Brexit as she seeks to maintain Scotland's links with the EU.  He does not think it would be possible for Scotland to remain in the EU single market if the UK as a whole is leaving."

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On ‎05‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 09:29, Cream Cheese said:

If the UK is such a major success in your blinkered view. Why is there such division between the individual states within this major successful union? Shouldn't we all be happy to be a part of it? We're not.

you're just not happy, full stop!

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2 hours ago, Antlion said:

A bit like how you voted for more subservience to the rule of the unelected British bureaucrats, lords and cabinet. Any word on those powers you claimed would be coming to Holyrood if we left the EU? If I recall, you were quite strident that this would happen, but sketchy on the details of how. Has the method materialised, or are you conceding that this was another ruse to get people to empower the UK government (which has one representative in Scotland) to make decisions for us?

Your recall has served you poorly,., Holyrood is a joke. Don't you see that ? Devolution is  sop  to fractious Scots.

I don't vote for subservience. I vote for exactly what I think is best for Scotland. That is continued membership of the UK.  Just like most Scottish citizens.

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1 hour ago, McSpreader said:

Your recall has served you poorly,., Holyrood is a joke. Don't you see that ? Devolution is  sop  to fractious Scots.

I don't vote for subservience. I vote for exactly what I think is best for Scotland. That is continued membership of the UK.  Just like most Scottish citizens.

So you think the majority of Scots (who requested a devolved parliament) are fractious and unhappy with being a region of the UK governed wholly from London? It seems you were in the minority in wanting Scotland not to have a national parliament in Scotland.

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7 hours ago, Antlion said:

So you think the majority of Scots (who requested a devolved parliament) are fractious and unhappy with being a region of the UK governed wholly from London? It seems you were in the minority in wanting Scotland not to have a national parliament in Scotland.

No, some Scots wanted a devolved Parliament but not Independence. Others ( yerself e.g) are a whinging group of permanently aggrieved delusionists who don't know when they are well off! 

10 hours ago, Alan Stubbs said:

Citation definitely needed :unsure2:

I'll ignore the rest of them seeing as they apply way more to the countries of the UK than the EU.

We'll all be speaking French if UK leaves EU and Scotland  eventually rejoins.....and I don't mean as a second language!

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24 minutes ago, McSpreader said:

No, some Scots wanted a devolved Parliament but not Independence. Others ( yerself e.g) are a whinging group of permanently aggrieved delusionists who don't know when they are well off! 

We'll all be speaking French if UK leaves EU and Scotland  eventually rejoins.....and I don't mean as a second language!

That's a bit rich coming from a permanently aggrieved anti-European. Let's fact it - you're not only willing but eager for Scotland to be in a constitutional position that you would never countenance for the UK because you think it's a bad, undesirable, damaging model. Quite why you want Scotland to be locked into a system you believe to be bad, undesirable and damaging is anyone's guess, but it is rather telling. Some evidence of how and by what process French will become Scotland's language in the event of EU membership would be good, incidentally - but (aside from the fact there isn't any), it may detract from your coveted reputation as an outrageous troll.

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A post Brexit indyref would be a choice between dealing with Europe on the same terms as England or dealing with England on the same terms as Europe.

The more isolationist this Brexit deal is the worse both those options are.

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13 hours ago, Antlion said:

That's a bit rich coming from a permanently aggrieved anti-European. Let's fact it - you're not only willing but eager for Scotland to be in a constitutional position that you would never countenance for the UK because you think it's a bad, undesirable, damaging model. Quite why you want Scotland to be locked into a system you believe to be bad, undesirable and damaging is anyone's guess, but it is rather telling. Some evidence of how and by what process French will become Scotland's language in the event of EU membership would be good, incidentally - but (aside from the fact there isn't any), it may detract from your coveted reputation as an outrageous troll.

Please stop comparing The UK  with The EU. They are totally different constructs and you embarrass yourself by constantly relating one to the other.

As for wasting my valuable time trawling the internet for 'evidence' for that which is common knowledge and self evident simply won't happen.

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51 minutes ago, McSpreader said:

Please stop comparing The UK  with The EU. They are totally different constructs and you embarrass yourself by constantly relating one to the other.

As for wasting my valuable time trawling the internet for 'evidence' for that which is common knowledge and self evident simply won't happen.

 

15 hours ago, McSpreader said:

No, some Scots wanted a devolved Parliament but not Independence. Others ( yerself e.g) are a whinging group of permanently aggrieved delusionists who don't know when they are well off! 

We'll all be speaking French if UK leaves EU and Scotland  eventually rejoins.....and I don't mean as a second language!

 

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If there's to be another Indy ref then SNP will need to call it this parliament, as they are going to get found out soon. The blame Westminster for everything argument will not wash with the electorate much longer.

Most people will begin to think the constitutional questions (Union and EU) are far less important than failures in education, heath and public services under the SNP watch.

YES movement will eventually become something only for the radical hardcore, that people will nostalgically laugh about ever being a part of (bit like mods or punks)

Polls starting to show support for another ref and Indy is beginning to wane already. No matter how loud Nicola shouts about how Scotland voted to remain in EU.

SNP will win one more Scottish parliament with greatly reduced number of MSPs then the Tories or Labour will be in. All will depend on how disillusioned the left leaning SNP supporters become once they have been failed by Labour and SNP, especially if Labour continue their support of SNP policy in parliament.

If Indy ref doesn't happen this parliament then I can't see another until 2044 at earliest, as for SNP to regain support then Indy plans will need to be abandoned.

If it was called this parliament I think the result would be the same (increased winning percentage due to lower turnout).

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