When will indyref2 happen?

[git-intae-thum]

TLDR version....

....or dim Yoon level of comprehension version.........

Cut the "we need 13 billion worth of cuts" chat cos it's a load a sh@te

[DeeTillEhDeh]

One things for sure, the public are a lot more informed with what needs done in the event of a indy yes vote. This has the advantage that currency, trade deals, EU plan,etc will need to be clearly defined before the vote to prevent scaremongering.

 

If its spelt out in black and white then an informed decision can be made based on fact not whataboutery.

To be fair I think the level of discussion is getting better.

 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

This is where as a patriotic Scot I take issue with the Nationalist narrative. I know I've gone over this before but I'll try again. Hopefully it will make my point of view clearer. 
See Scotland isn't poor at all. As part of the United Kingdom it does extremely well actually. Part of the fifth biggest economy in the world.  The Fraser and Allander Institute blog that I linked to days ago illustrated it quite clearly but basically within the 12 regions of the Uk - only 3 are in surplus. That is the East of England, the South East, and London. Between them they generate £61Bn more revenue than they spend. The other 9 regions - one of which is Scotland - spends around £102Bn more than it generates which means the UK budget deficit for last year was £41Bn.
What happens in the UK is every year Scotland, through the Barnett Formula, is awarded a grant from the UK Government which the Scottish Government spends, within certainly limits, as it deems appropriate. The Scottish Government tends to spend it all - rightly so - because it would look extremely odd if they didn't especially when they like to bump their gums about "Tory austerity". The good news for Scotland is that the Barnett Formula is quite generous and it means that Scotland, per head of population, get's more money than in any of the other regions in the UK. In effect Scotland benefits from the strong economic position that exists in the South East of England, London and East of England. If you like it's the benefit of living in a large family, where your wealthier and better paid parents and older sibling are able to subsidise your standard of living.
Now if Scotland was to become independent the Barnett Formula would stop and Scotland would have to stand on it's own two feet - a bit like when a child grows up and leaves the family home. Now the only money you can spend is what you raise in tax revenues. And if you are used to a lifestyle that sees you spend £13Bn per annum more than you earn, you are going to have to make some rather big decisions on either what you are going to do to earn an extra £13Bn per annum in tax revenue, or what areas of spending you are going to cut. 
That's what I keep asking. What - out of all of the services promised in the White Paper - would the nationalists propose we cut in order to balance the books after Independence? Or would you just raise taxes to raise an extra £13Bn per annum - if so how much more tax are we all likely to have to pay to cover the cost of Scottish Independence? And how would you propose we attract new business investment to Scotland if we are one of the highest taxed countries in Europe? 
It's quite a simple question - quite a fair one too I reckon. My life is comfortable, so is that of my kids. I think most Scots are reasonably comfortable too. So before changing my vote from Never to Yes I need to know how badly Scottish independence is going to damage my lifestyle. 
 

I started to read this, but I'm sorry, any 'patriotic Scot' who considers Scotland to be a 'region' isn't worthy of my respect, never mind my attention. Try Googling 'The Scottish Cringe'.

[Glenanover]

20 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

On 29/08/2019 at 20:06, Malky3 said:

This is where as a patriotic Scot I take issue with the Nationalist narrative. I know I've gone over this before but I'll try again. Hopefully it will make my point of view clearer. 
See Scotland isn't poor at all. As part of the United Kingdom it does extremely well actually. Part of the fifth biggest economy in the world.  The Fraser and Allander Institute blog that I linked to days ago illustrated it quite clearly but basically within the 12 regions of the Uk - only 3 are in surplus. That is the East of England, the South East, and London. Between them they generate £61Bn more revenue than they spend. The other 9 regions - one of which is Scotland - spends around £102Bn more than it generates which means the UK budget deficit for last year was £41Bn.
What happens in the UK is every year Scotland, through the Barnett Formula, is awarded a grant from the UK Government which the Scottish Government spends, within certainly limits, as it deems appropriate. The Scottish Government tends to spend it all - rightly so - because it would look extremely odd if they didn't especially when they like to bump their gums about "Tory austerity". The good news for Scotland is that the Barnett Formula is quite generous and it means that Scotland, per head of population, get's more money than in any of the other regions in the UK. In effect Scotland benefits from the strong economic position that exists in the South East of England, London and East of England. If you like it's the benefit of living in a large family, where your wealthier and better paid parents and older sibling are able to subsidise your standard of living.
Now if Scotland was to become independent the Barnett Formula would stop and Scotland would have to stand on it's own two feet - a bit like when a child grows up and leaves the family home. Now the only money you can spend is what you raise in tax revenues. And if you are used to a lifestyle that sees you spend £13Bn per annum more than you earn, you are going to have to make some rather big decisions on either what you are going to do to earn an extra £13Bn per annum in tax revenue, or what areas of spending you are going to cut. 
That's what I keep asking. What - out of all of the services promised in the White Paper - would the nationalists propose we cut in order to balance the books after Independence? Or would you just raise taxes to raise an extra £13Bn per annum - if so how much more tax are we all likely to have to pay to cover the cost of Scottish Independence? And how would you propose we attract new business investment to Scotland if we are one of the highest taxed countries in Europe? 
It's quite a simple question - quite a fair one too I reckon. My life is comfortable, so is that of my kids. I think most Scots are reasonably comfortable too. So before changing my vote from Never to Yes I need to know how badly Scottish independence is going to damage my lifestyle. 
 

I started to read this, but I'm sorry, any 'patriotic Scot' who considers Scotland to be a 'region' isn't worthy of my respect, never mind my attention. Try Googling 'The Scottish Cringe'.

I'm sure Malky is gutted that he doesn't have your respect or attention. What a high opinion you must have of yourself. 

"Scottish Cringe" Thats the people that go on these independence marches. 

[Glenanover]

On 30/08/2019 at 15:35, Malky3 said:

Do you what makes me laugh? You got so much of this post right because you read the GERs report, and then you go and f**k it up in the end anyway. 

You're right Scotland in the United Kingdom does not have a deficit. We get our grant through the Barnett Formula and our government spends it. The Barnett Formula is generous. Scotland as a result gets more than it's equal share and thanks to the fact that 3 of our economic partners in the Union - London, The South East and East of England - are doing well we're able to live a bit off their coat tails. That is all factual - so I'm sure we can agree on that. 

The GERs Report is published by the Scottish Government. It is compiled by the same team of economic experts that the SNP rely on for all manner of advice. If they are incompetent then so, by extension, is the Scottish Government. It is correct that it is a picture of Scotland in a political union - our current situation. It doesn't pretend to represent anything else. That too is fact and I'm sure we can agree on it too. 

It's after that where you go off the rails. 

The tax revenue is collected by the HMRC. We don't give anything. HMRC collects it. The UK Government pays for the public services under it's control, as voted on and agreed by parliament at every budget and Scotland gets it's grant through the Barnett Formula. The amount given to Scotland every year has increased under the Barnett Formula regardless of how much tax revenue Scotland raises, or of "Tory Austerity Cuts".

If Scotland was to become Independent we'd need to source a method of tax collection. The SNP reckon this service would be provided by the current supplier. Nationalists seem to be arguing that HMRC will charge an independent Scotland less for this, than it currently charges. That claim looks at best unrealistic especially when you factor in the increased costs of working out a completely different tax regime. The SNP also claimed in it's White Paper that our diplomatic service as an Independent country would be cheap to run because we'd just set up in the same embassies that we do right now. Nationalists seem to think that the UK Government will charge Scotland less for this than it costs right now. Again that looks at best unrealistic. The same is true of every other public service the UK Government provides at present from administration, to defence, foreign aid, etc, etc. 

That is not to say that an Independent Scotland couldn't look completely different, and have a fiscal budget that works. It simply means doing things differently to how we do them currently - which should be a given since the nationalists claim that Westminster doesn't work and doesn't offer good value for money. So all I want to know, and what I keep asking, is if we have £13Bn per annum less to spend, because we aren't able to rely on the income London, the South East and the East of England provides, what would an Independent Scotland government do differently to save that money? So far all I've got to go on is Alex Salmonds White Paper which says we'll do everything just as we do it right now, but we'll be richer if the oil revenue prices hit record highs that we now know simply didn't happen. Had we bought his bollocks we'd have had a £29.9Bn fiscal black hole to fill as a result. 

So let me ask again - what would you change in order to save £13Bn per annum, git-intae-thum?  Would you scrap the NHS and use compulsory private medical insurance to fund health care? Would you scrap free university places and charge student fees? Would you re-introduce prescription fees? It's a simple question really and if nationalists are being honest it's one they really need to fully cost and to answer before trying to sell their fellow countrymen down the river on a promise of unicorns and fairies minding huge pots of gold somewhere over the rainbow. 

 

[Glenanover]

21 hours ago, Malky3 said:

Ok let me first get the part out of the way where I repeat myself. 

Scotland DOES spend £13Bn more than it earns. That is fact. It's not my fact, it's not been made up by Westminster. It's the conclusion of a report into the fiscal state of Scotland as a country right now. It's compiled by the Scottish Governments top statisticians and economists. and it's been fully ratified and endorsed by the Scottish Government Finance Minister Derek MacKay. You allege it's slavering nonsense without any basis other than your prejudiced supposition. Yet if you are correct and these figures are wrong then that would call into question the competence of the Scottish Government and of the Finance Minister. 

I have also stated many times now that Scotland does not have a deficit. This is also factually correct. You keep referencing me and pointing out to me that there is no deficit. I agree. Can we put that behind us? Scotland is not in deficit currently because our Scottish Government is spending the money allocated to it in the Barnett Formula. The fact we spend more than we earn ONLY becomes an issue if Scotland decides to go it alone. 

You also really seem to be struggling with how the Barnett Formula works. Basically when the UK Government decides to spend more money on capital projects in England, it has to increase the amount given to Scotland proportionally. So capital spends like HS2, Crossrail, and Wembley Stadium have been great for Scotland in that it has meant a larger grant being paid for the Scottish Government to use on projects North of the Border. 

And then there is your talk of having full control of your own fiscal levers - which wilfully ignores the fact that isn't a policy that has ever been talked about with regard to an Independent Scotland. Instead when talking about an Independent Scotland the current line of thought appears to be that we will use Sterlingisation - giving control of our economic levers to the Bank of England - until such times as our new economy has stabilised at which point we'll look to create our own new currency with a Central Bank with the hope of eventually getting full membership of the EU and adopting the Euro. 

The Luxemburg effect in London? Ok, so if that is an issue how is an Independent Scotland going to stop global companies that operate in Scotland taking their profits out of the country? Even established world powers haven't found a way to prevent that from happening in their countries, but you think a new country run by people their own financial backers think would fail Standard Grade Economics will manage to stop oil companies from and finance houses from running their businesses through HQ's in London. 

To finish off can I ask a few questions. Why is it that when the UK economy runs at a deficit that is bad news, but when asked about what Scotland would do if it was Independent the first thing nationalists want to do is operate at a deficit cause it's unreasonable to expect us not to? Why is it that nationalists who are openly critical of Westminster and of the state of public services, when faced with the prospect of setting up a new country immediately promise to keep everything the same? And why is it nationalists who can view the size of the grant paid to Scotland through the Barnett Formula and who are well aware that Scotland gets one of the highest payments per head of population in the UK like to talk about how it's a "cut in real terms" every year, when Independence would mean turning off our access to the large amounts of money generated in London, the South East and the East of England and would leave us having to find £13Bn of real cuts every single year just to balance the books. 

Once again, spot on

[Glenanover]

The red dotting bairn is back

[Bairnardo]

A quadruple post from Malkys alias there.

[welshbairn]

10 minutes ago, Glenanover said:

The red dotting bairn is back

Even you must be seeing a pattern. You red dot me, I red dot you. It would be rude not to.

[Glenanover]

6 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Even you must be seeing a pattern. You red dot me, I red dot you. It would be rude not to.

Your posts deserve it though

[Glenanover]

On 30/08/2019 at 16:40, pawpar said:

Going to this tomorrow first time on an independence march. Won't be the last. Fed up of all the shite Boris throws up. Time for a Section 30 order and if Boris doesn't like it then declare UDI.

AUG31

March and Rally For Scottish Independence - Dunfermline 2019

Public

 · Hosted by March And Rally For Scottish Independence Dunfermline and Forward as One - Scotland

 

Interested

Share

 

• clock

  Tomorrow from 12:00-18:00 Tomorrow · 8–16°C Rain

• pin	Viewfield Terrace, Dunfermline, KY12 7, United Kingdom

How many was there ? 100,000 ? 150,000 ?

Did you wave your wee flag and have your Scotland top and kilt on ? 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Glenanover

[Glenanover]

1 hour ago, MixuFixit said:

Unionists: Scotland is a basket case! Look at the GERS deficit!

Also Unionists: Scotland prospers in the union!

We are doing fine in the Union, no doubt about that. 

Outwith a different story.

 

 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Jesus fucking wept.

They say Scottish education standards are bad now ? Then explain why around half of the nation's over 50's appear to have melted ice cream for brains.

[Rizzo]

2 hours ago, Glenanover said:

The red dotting bairn is back

There's more than one.

[Malky3]

2 hours ago, MixuFixit said:

Unionists: Scotland is a basket case! Look at the GERS deficit!

Also Unionists: Scotland prospers in the union!

You're reading and comprehension skills are dreadful.  I've repeatedly stated that Scotland is not a basket case, indeed quite the opposite. I've stated that most Scots are doing extremely well currently and I've repeatedly made the point that if Nationalists want us to change our vote they will need to prove how an Independent Scotland would make us all better off financially. I've repeatedly pointed out that the GERs Report shows Scotland does not have a deficit. I've had to repeat that so many times I'm beginning to wonder if any of the nationalists on this site have a memory span of more than a few seconds. I've even shown, through the Fraser and Allander Institute blog that Scotland is not the worst performing region in the UK and I've shown how Scotland benefits from money that is shared out, unproportionally generously through the Barnett Formula,  from the more prosperous regions in the UK to the benefit of the Scottish people. 

I'm the real Scottish patriot. The one who sees a proud and successful nation. The one who wants our success to continue. I'm the one that cares about the wealth and opportunity available to all Scots. You would rip up everything we've got on a mad xenophobic gamble. You would risk the prosperity and opportunity that your fellow Scots currently enjoy on an ideologic folly. 

Put your saltire down fannybaws. You're fake patriotism is a national disgrace. 

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by Malky3

[Bairnardo]

Yep. The heads gone is coming from this roaster.... Sunday tomorrow. Tick tock....

[Malky3]

19 hours ago, git-intae-thum said:

Oh dear....No one is arguing about the Barnett consequentials . 

Obviously GERs allocates an offset amount.

However what GERs and the said consequentials do not adjust for is the multiplying effect of the said spend in the South East and the resulting economic growth......(you do get the basic economic fact that where there is spend it creates economic activity right)..... This is money that good figures and good accounting would subtract from London and the SE and add to the regions as appropriate. However it don't happen.

Basics lesson number 1.

London builds a new bridge. The whole UK pays for it. Barnett consequentials mean Scotland gets its share back.

Fine and dandy.

Eh...NO!

That bridge that Scotland initially part paid for requires planning, requires materials, requires labour, requires legal services...and on and on. In turn these services require supporting economic activity from catering to f@ckin whatever....undertakers or boot menders. All this in effect creates economic growth.

Economic growth creates wealth. Wealth is then tapped for revenue.

This is revenue that Scotland (and other UK regions) paid a share to create. It is revenue that under the current figures is solely apportioned to London and the South East. The regions do not receive their proportion share of the multiplied revenue.

You see then it is really a bit of a racket.

Now imagine this happening every week, every year on all central govt spends or large capital or South of England infrastructure projects. Starting to sink in?

We do not have any figures with regards the multiplier effect......but London certainly has good accountants.

Again...and this is now getting really tiring.....this is the reason that London and the South East show a surplus and other UK regions show notional deficit. 

Scotland in union may very well show a 13bn deficit. But that's because you and my money is being pumped out of our economy and used to create continual growth in another region. That money should be getting used on our infrastructure and to create our own multiplier.

Hey.... the Scottish economy itself may well indeed have a deficit..... But its almost certainly no where nearhalf the UK deficit. FFS think about it.

It is a crying shame that so many are duped into thinking this way.

 

The highlighted part in particular is rubbish. Scotland raised £13Bn less in revenue than our Scottish Government spends. By it's very definition money isn't being pumped out of our economy, it's being pumped in. Without it the SNP couldn't give the middle classes and the rich free prescriptions and free university education. 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

10 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

I'm the real Scottish patriot. The one who sees a proud and successful nation. The one who wants our success to continue. I'm the one that cares about the wealth and opportunity available to all Scots. You would rip up everything we've got on a mad xenophobic gamble. You would risk the prosperity and opportunity that your fellow Scots currently enjoy on an ideologic folly. 

Put your saltire down fannybaws. You're fake patriotism is a national disgrace. 

Same energy.

 

[Malky3]

On 30/08/2019 at 15:21, Crùbag said:

True but hardly insignificant. As technology improves and other renewables increasingly play their part, we'll be selling our clean energy to others.

Sorry I missed this in all the nonsense last night but I had to pick up on this. 

Energy storage is where the technology really needs to improve otherwise the figures quoted like the one you give will always be insignificant and unless we decide to take on Duracell as the worlds leading battery brand there isn't a hope of selling our renewable energy to anyone but ourselves. 

You see right now we waste a huge amount of the energy that is generated. Think about it, when it's extremely windy during the night and we're all sleeping, who is using all that energy that is being generated? Conversely what happens when we get to a night where the World Cup Final or the Strictly Final is on the telly, and the wind isn't blowing? Do we all go outside and shake some paper in the direction of a wind turbine hoping to create enough of a draught to bring the telly back to life? Remember too we can't turn the power up and down by the minute at any of our nuclear power plants, or at any of our gas or oil fired power stations. 

Another problem with your idea of selling clean energy to others is that electricity does not travel well. Where would you sell it to? The North of England where they have nuclear power plants generating more than they can use? It's hardly likely. And as I've said unless you are manufacturing AAA and AA batteries your aren't going to be exporting energy around the world. 

[Bairnardo]

Tbf, theres a fair bit of energy required to power your keyboard mashing 03:00 tales of pure fantasy. 

Well done on helping the cause brother. 

 

ETA In somewhat related news, Malky is continuing to spend his Saturday night embarrassing himself by making up stories on the snip thread. Keep eating up those renewable Walter