When will indyref2 happen?

[jakedee]

Previous Countries have gone down this path, there may have been a risk, but it seems,for them, it was worth while. What is "not right" about a Country being self determined ?

Yes.
And even although other Countries have done it doesn't make it right. Doesn't make it very risky either. 
No thanks, not for me.

[Malky3]

6 hours ago, WATTOO said:

If it's a given that Scotland is poor, has a huge deficit and couldn't possibly support itself given the current projections, then if anything that should be a MASSIVE incentive for people to WANT independence as our "failures" are undoubtedly and unarguably due to being governed / mismanaged / exploited by Westminster and the British / English Government.

Decades of policies which treated us as a far flung region ONLY to be exploited have seen us in this current situation, so surely standing on our own two feet, looking after our OWN interests and steering policy towards what's best for our area of the country can only be good and positive for us ??

Look at Slovakia after they split from the Czechs, the country has gone from strength to strength and attracted lots of foreign investment, Ireland is another prime example and of course Scotland has arguably far more to offer in terms of natural resources than those countries mentioned.

The bottom line is that London and the South are draining the very life from us and many up here just seem happy to sit back and not only accept this but actually support and applaud it.

Honestly, I really don't get it at all......................

This is where as a patriotic Scot I take issue with the Nationalist narrative. I know I've gone over this before but I'll try again. Hopefully it will make my point of view clearer. 

See Scotland isn't poor at all. As part of the United Kingdom it does extremely well actually. Part of the fifth biggest economy in the world.  The Fraser and Allander Institute blog that I linked to days ago illustrated it quite clearly but basically within the 12 regions of the Uk - only 3 are in surplus. That is the East of England, the South East, and London. Between them they generate £61Bn more revenue than they spend. The other 9 regions - one of which is Scotland - spends around £102Bn more than it generates which means the UK budget deficit for last year was £41Bn.

What happens in the UK is every year Scotland, through the Barnett Formula, is awarded a grant from the UK Government which the Scottish Government spends, within certainly limits, as it deems appropriate. The Scottish Government tends to spend it all - rightly so - because it would look extremely odd if they didn't especially when they like to bump their gums about "Tory austerity". The good news for Scotland is that the Barnett Formula is quite generous and it means that Scotland, per head of population, get's more money than in any of the other regions in the UK. In effect Scotland benefits from the strong economic position that exists in the South East of England, London and East of England. If you like it's the benefit of living in a large family, where your wealthier and better paid parents and older sibling are able to subsidise your standard of living.

Now if Scotland was to become independent the Barnett Formula would stop and Scotland would have to stand on it's own two feet - a bit like when a child grows up and leaves the family home. Now the only money you can spend is what you raise in tax revenues. And if you are used to a lifestyle that sees you spend £13Bn per annum more than you earn, you are going to have to make some rather big decisions on either what you are going to do to earn an extra £13Bn per annum in tax revenue, or what areas of spending you are going to cut. 

That's what I keep asking. What - out of all of the services promised in the White Paper - would the nationalists propose we cut in order to balance the books after Independence? Or would you just raise taxes to raise an extra £13Bn per annum - if so how much more tax are we all likely to have to pay to cover the cost of Scottish Independence? And how would you propose we attract new business investment to Scotland if we are one of the highest taxed countries in Europe? 

It's quite a simple question - quite a fair one too I reckon. My life is comfortable, so is that of my kids. I think most Scots are reasonably comfortable too. So before changing my vote from Never to Yes I need to know how badly Scottish independence is going to damage my lifestyle. 

 

[Billy Jean King]

I'd love to know what constitutes the "East of England" in this positive revenue context. Big swathes of it are utter shitholes !

This is where as a patriotic Scot I take issue with the Nationalist narrative. I know I've gone over this before but I'll try again. Hopefully it will make my point of view clearer. 
See Scotland isn't poor at all. As part of the United Kingdom it does extremely well actually. Part of the fifth biggest economy in the world.  The Fraser and Allander Institute blog that I linked to days ago illustrated it quite clearly but basically within the 12 regions of the Uk - only 3 are in surplus. That is the East of England, the South East, and London. Between them they generate £61Bn more revenue than they spend. The other 9 regions - one of which is Scotland - spends around £102Bn more than it generates which means the UK budget deficit for last year was £41Bn.
What happens in the UK is every year Scotland, through the Barnett Formula, is awarded a grant from the UK Government which the Scottish Government spends, within certainly limits, as it deems appropriate. The Scottish Government tends to spend it all - rightly so - because it would look extremely odd if they didn't especially when they like to bump their gums about "Tory austerity". The good news for Scotland is that the Barnett Formula is quite generous and it means that Scotland, per head of population, get's more money than in any of the other regions in the UK. In effect Scotland benefits from the strong economic position that exists in the South East of England, London and East of England. If you like it's the benefit of living in a large family, where your wealthier and better paid parents and older sibling are able to subsidise your standard of living.
Now if Scotland was to become independent the Barnett Formula would stop and Scotland would have to stand on it's own two feet - a bit like when a child grows up and leaves the family home. Now the only money you can spend is what you raise in tax revenues. And if you are used to a lifestyle that sees you spend £13Bn per annum more than you earn, you are going to have to make some rather big decisions on either what you are going to do to earn an extra £13Bn per annum in tax revenue, or what areas of spending you are going to cut. 
That's what I keep asking. What - out of all of the services promised in the White Paper - would the nationalists propose we cut in order to balance the books after Independence? Or would you just raise taxes to raise an extra £13Bn per annum - if so how much more tax are we all likely to have to pay to cover the cost of Scottish Independence? And how would you propose we attract new business investment to Scotland if we are one of the highest taxed countries in Europe? 
It's quite a simple question - quite a fair one too I reckon. My life is comfortable, so is that of my kids. I think most Scots are reasonably comfortable too. So before changing my vote from Never to Yes I need to know how badly Scottish independence is going to damage my lifestyle. 
 

[Malky3]

12 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

I'd love to know what constitutes the "East of England" in this positive revenue context. Big swathes of it are utter shitholes !

The report won't clear that up for you, but if you click the link and read it you'll see what I'm saying is accurate. 

 

[Malky3]

8 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

A question ive never had answered by a unionist, given in the era of tory austerity where people’s lives are being ended in a concerted effort to rid the elite of burdenous poor people, given the sheer drive to ‘save money’ and ‘reduce debt’ etc, at a time where Westminster gentry tell us we are an economic burden at every opportunity and the yoons swallow it up (see malky). Then the question arises, if we are such an economic burden why do they want to keep us so badly?

Dunno, but if us Scots are really sensible we'll keep quiet about it and hope they don't look too closely eh? 

After all if you think we've suffered austerity, wait till you see an SNP government trying to save £13Bn per annum. 

[ICTJohnboy]

2 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Dunno, but if us Scots are really sensible we'll keep quiet about it and hope they don't look too closely eh? 

After all if you think we've suffered austerity, wait till you see an SNP government trying to save £13Bn per annum. 

 

10 out of 10 for perseverance, Malky!!

Why do you try to keep trying to spoil our dream?

[Malky3]

7 hours ago, welshbairn said:

We can compare how comparatively sized and mixed  economies are doing in the EU, and they seem to be getting on fine. One would expect a final settlement with the rUK to be based on mutual self interest, and therefore as smooth and as least disruptive as possible. There's far more risk in getting dragged into a hard brexit against our will, and there are countless Treasury and Bank of England reports to back that up. I rate the risks of staying in the Union as far greater than getting the f**k out.

You keep doing that. 

I have never claimed that Scotland couldn't be a successful Independent country. It could - so long as it cuts it's spending to be no more than it raises in revenue. It would just be very different from what we are used to. For example - how many of the comparatively sized countries in the EU have healthcare that is free at the point of need and paid for by general taxation? 

[welshbairn]

21 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

You keep doing that. 

I have never claimed that Scotland couldn't be a successful Independent country. It could - so long as it cuts it's spending to be no more than it raises in revenue. It would just be very different from what we are used to. For example - how many of the comparatively sized countries in the EU have healthcare that is free at the point of need and paid for by general taxation? 

We spend less than most of our neighbours on Health and if there was a temporary budgetary shortfall we could do as all advanced economies do, borrow. We have plenty of assets.

You still haven't answered my question. True or False?

On 09/08/2019 at 16:51, Malky3 said:

I had hoped that in the modern Scotland we were making some progress towards eradicating sectarianism when in 2012 we saw the Offensive Behaviour at Football Act passed into law unopposed but by 2018 the SNP had repealed the Act, and on these pages we can see why. It's sad really but it seems the Nationalist Cult needs to sow division on any grounds whatsoever to gain traction for their cause. 

 

[Malky3]

5 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

We spend less than most of our neighbours on Health and if there was a temporary budgetary shortfall we could do as all advanced economies do, borrow. We have plenty of assets.

You still haven't answered my question. True or False?

 

Oh dear. You really can't read can you? Either that or you can't comprehend what you are looking at. 

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Oh dear. You really can't read can you? Either that or you can't comprehend what you are looking at. 

I'll take that as a false. 

[Crùbag]

10 hours ago, Malky3 said:

Exactly. 

I work in the energy sector. Scotland cannot survive on renewable energy on its own, not even when its constantly windy. 

 

Manning the pumps at your local BP station is, I suppose, working in the energy sector.

 

As to original point:

Quote

Between January and June 2019, Scotland produced 9,831,230 megawatt-hours of electricity. That's enough energy for the country to provide power up to 4.47 million homes, nearly double the amount Scotland actually has, according to the WWF

. 

https://interestingengineering.com/scotland-generated-enough-wind-energy-to-power-all-households-twice-over

 

[Malky3]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

I'll take that as a false. 

I know you are thick as f**k. I had my suspicions but presenting a graph that shows that people have to pay more for healthcare in similar sized countries than we do as proof an Independent Scotland could carry on as we do really was a bad own goal. And what is really funny is you haven't got a clue that you scored it. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Malky3 said:

This is where as a patriotic Scot I take issue with the Nationalist narrative. I know I've gone over this before but I'll try again. Hopefully it will make my point of view clearer. 

See Scotland isn't poor at all. As part of the United Kingdom it does extremely well actually. Part of the fifth biggest economy in the world.  The Fraser and Allander Institute blog that I linked to days ago illustrated it quite clearly but basically within the 12 regions of the Uk - only 3 are in surplus. That is the East of England, the South East, and London. Between them they generate £61Bn more revenue than they spend. The other 9 regions - one of which is Scotland - spends around £102Bn more than it generates which means the UK budget deficit for last year was £41Bn.

What happens in the UK is every year Scotland, through the Barnett Formula, is awarded a grant from the UK Government which the Scottish Government spends, within certainly limits, as it deems appropriate. The Scottish Government tends to spend it all - rightly so - because it would look extremely odd if they didn't especially when they like to bump their gums about "Tory austerity". The good news for Scotland is that the Barnett Formula is quite generous and it means that Scotland, per head of population, get's more money than in any of the other regions in the UK. In effect Scotland benefits from the strong economic position that exists in the South East of England, London and East of England. If you like it's the benefit of living in a large family, where your wealthier and better paid parents and older sibling are able to subsidise your standard of living.

Now if Scotland was to become independent the Barnett Formula would stop and Scotland would have to stand on it's own two feet - a bit like when a child grows up and leaves the family home. Now the only money you can spend is what you raise in tax revenues. And if you are used to a lifestyle that sees you spend £13Bn per annum more than you earn, you are going to have to make some rather big decisions on either what you are going to do to earn an extra £13Bn per annum in tax revenue, or what areas of spending you are going to cut. 

That's what I keep asking. What - out of all of the services promised in the White Paper - would the nationalists propose we cut in order to balance the books after Independence? Or would you just raise taxes to raise an extra £13Bn per annum - if so how much more tax are we all likely to have to pay to cover the cost of Scottish Independence? And how would you propose we attract new business investment to Scotland if we are one of the highest taxed countries in Europe? 

It's quite a simple question - quite a fair one too I reckon. My life is comfortable, so is that of my kids. I think most Scots are reasonably comfortable too. So before changing my vote from Never to Yes I need to know how badly Scottish independence is going to damage my lifestyle. 

 

That's great but the question you should be asking is WHY London and the South generates all the wealth ?

I know the answer to that and that is the very reason that I don't want to be content with the scraps thrown from our masters table...............

[Malky3]

3 minutes ago, Crùbag said:

Manning the pumps at your local BP station is, I suppose, working in the energy sector.

 

As to original point:

. 

https://interestingengineering.com/scotland-generated-enough-wind-energy-to-power-all-households-twice-over

 

Aye - HOMES! 

That conveniently forgets about industrial usage, transport, infrastructure etc. 

[Malky3]

1 minute ago, WATTOO said:

That's great but the question you should be asking is WHY London and the South generates all the wealth ?

I know the answer to that and that is the very reason that I don't want to be content with the scraps thrown from our masters table...............

Oh OK, well if you know the answer feel free to give it. 

Personally I don't know the answer, but if I was an Nationalist I'd be wanting to ask how an Independent Scotland would be able to get access to all the revenue they've got - like we do right now. Without it we might well have a more equal society but we'll all be much poorer. 

[ForzaDundee]

After a difficult few days for unionists, finally some respite from bad news as Rangers qualify for the group stages.

[welshbairn]

11 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

I know you are thick as f**k. I had my suspicions but presenting a graph that shows that people have to pay more for healthcare in similar sized countries than we do as proof an Independent Scotland could carry on as we do really was a bad own goal. And what is really funny is you haven't got a clue that you scored it. 

It shows that similarly sized independent European nations can prioritise healthcare more than we can while being ruled by Westminster. You claimed we would have to support a superior healthcare system to them.

Why do you find it so difficult to admit that you lied about the OBAF Act? Or just admit you were wrong? It's not hard.

Edited August 29, 2019 by welshbairn

[Malky3]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

It shows that similarly sized independent European nations can prioritise healthcare more than we can while being ruled by Westminster. You claimed we would have to support a superior healthcare system to them.

Why do you find it so difficult to admit that you lied about the OBAF Act? 

You know that it shows that many of those countries have PRIVATE healthcare systems paid for by compulsory membership of private health insurance. That's not the NHS. Fair enough if you are saying in an independent Scotland we'll scrap the NHS and get everyone to buy their own policies - but it would be interesting to see how that honesty went down with the electorate. 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Dunno, but if us Scots are really sensible we'll keep quiet about it and hope they don't look too closely eh? 
After all if you think we've suffered austerity, wait till you see an SNP government trying to save £13Bn per annum. 

You genuinely dont think they know the answer to all that?haha. You think a party absolutely obsessed with cutting spending isnt aware exactly where the money comes from and goes?

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, Malky3 said:

You know that it shows that many of those countries have PRIVATE healthcare systems paid for by compulsory membership of private health insurance. That's not the NHS. Fair enough if you are saying in an independent Scotland we'll scrap the NHS and get everyone to buy their own policies - but it would be interesting to see how that honesty went down with the electorate. 

NI isn't voluntary.