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When will indyref2 happen?

Indyref2  

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Being ruled over by somebody or a group that has no mandate to rule over your country = dictatorship.
It's not really though, is it?

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If I budget to spend £1m this year and my income is £10k then quite clearly I am not overspending my budget whilst at the same time my budget is patently not self-financed.  If you do understand fully how Holyrood is funded then you are quite clearly at it with these posts.
 
We don't get an income, dimwit.

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40 minutes ago, strichener said:

Yet in devolved areas we spend more than the UK average.  Are there magic money trees in Edinburgh that the Scottish Government have access to?

I can only use figures from 2017/18 as 18/19 hasn't been published yet here is what we spend as a percentage of UK average:

Service area

 

2017–18

 

Scotland as % of UK

 

 

 

Social protection (inc. benefits and pensions)

 

106.9%

 

Health

 

107.1%

 

Education and training

 

116.3%

 

Transport

 

150.0%

 

Recreation, culture and religion

 

144.5%

 

Enterprise and economic development

 

185.6%

 

 

 

 

 

Investment (capital) spending

 

130.6%

 

Day-to-day (current) spending

 

111.2%

We may spend more than the UK average, but we're not spending over the financial budget. On top of the 33 billion budget there is additional money raised through devolved taxation.

31 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:
44 minutes ago, BawWatchin said:
Being ruled over by somebody or a group that has no mandate to rule over your country = dictatorship.

It's not really though, is it?

It really is. Perhaps you need to learn what dictatorship means.

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3 hours ago, Brother Blades said:

Whilst all the financial arguments are valid & necessary, it seems that’s all that Wee Malky fae Glasgow has....
What about the Indy supporters who want Scotland to be Independent for the following reasons.
1. Remove ourselves from the ever increasing isolationism & xenophobia being shown in other parts of the UK.
2. Bring democracy closer to the people.
3. A fairer & more forward looking society.
4. Actually having a government that our nation has voted for, with full fiscal autonomy.

As has been stated numerous times previously, if Scotland is “failing” under the current arrangements, surely its time to try something new?

I don't think Scotland is failing. We're enjoying the benefit of being the worlds 5th biggest economy. We've got low levels of unemployment, low interest rates, low inflation and salaries that are rising ahead of inflation. I'm doing pretty well personally and my kids are doing well in their chosen professions. Thats why the economic argument is important to me. 

I have some sympathy with number 2 on your list. Devolution - which I supportrd - was supposed to fix that. However I fear it hasn't. Many of the local authorities in Scotland are increasingly frustrated by the Scottish Parliaments grab of powers from them. 

Number 3 cannot happen in a positive way unless you can afford it. We could make things more equal by chasing the wealthy out of Scotland with high taxation - as many nationalists seem to call for - but all that means is there is a far smaller financial pool to share out equally as the over all tax take falls and foreign  investment dries up. Personally I prefer to see us all being wealthier rather than more equal. I don't care how my life measures against Simon Cowell, just that I'm financially comfortabble. 

4 is also impossible without our own currency. Unfortunately the SNP policy is for sterlingisation. Do a quick search, read up on it and you'll see why fiscal autonomy is not being proposed as part of the nationalist deal. 

And number 1 is slightly strange if you don't mind me saying so. The nationalists have stoked anti English xenophobia and isolationism all my life. A hard border between us and our closest friends and neighbours seems silly whether its Brexit or Indy Ref 2

Edited by Malky3

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Yesser: Why shouldn't Scotland be independent?

Yoon: Because look how pathetic Scotlands economy is performing, it would be doomed with independence.

Yesser: If Scotlands economy is performing so poorly as part of the UK, then isn't it time we tried something else?

Yoon: I don't think Scotlands economy is performing poorly....

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29 minutes ago, Double Jack D said:

What about if your income was £60, your budget was £30, you spent £30, someone else spent £43 on your behalf and told you that you still needed them to make financial decisions for you because you couldn't afford to do it by yourself because you have a £13 deficit?

 

 

If I was aware of what the £43 was being spent on and calculated that it was less than 43 but more than 30 then I would see that as a good deal.

What I wouldn't do is ask for the responsibility over the 43 and then when I get control over parts of it, decide that it was easier just to let the other party continue to administer it.

 

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6 minutes ago, strichener said:

If I was aware of what the £43 was being spent on and calculated that it was less than 43 but more than 30 then I would see that as a good deal.

What I wouldn't do is ask for the responsibility over the 43 and then when I get control over parts of it, decide that it was easier just to let the other party continue to administer it.

 

Are you aware of what the £43 is being spent on and is it a good deal?

Are you comfortable that £60 is an accurate estimate of your income?

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6 minutes ago, strichener said:

If I was aware of what the £43 was being spent on and calculated that it was less than 43 but more than 30 then I would see that as a good deal.

What I wouldn't do is ask for the responsibility over the 43 and then when I get control over parts of it, decide that it was easier just to let the other party continue to administer it.

 

But what if they turn around and say "naw, i'm not telling you what I spent your money on or the money I borrowed in your name. Now give me my £13"???

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6 minutes ago, Double Jack D said:

Are you aware of what the £43 is being spent on and is it a good deal?

Are you comfortable that £60 is an accurate estimate of your income?

If only there was some independent methodology that could provide substance to these numbers to let me decide.  I perhaps should ask for a GERS (General Expenses and Revenue Strichener) to be produced on an annual basis by a independent body.

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51 minutes ago, strichener said:

If only there was some independent methodology that could provide substance to these numbers to let me decide.  I perhaps should ask for a GERS (General Expenses and Revenue Strichener) to be produced on an annual basis by a independent body.

With estimated figures provided almost entirely by your neighbour who is desperately trying to convince you to allow them to retain control of your finances.  Aye I'm sure that'll work out well for you.

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I don't think Scotland is failing. We're enjoying the benefit of being the worlds 5th biggest economy. We've got low levels of unemployment, low interest rates, low inflation and salaries that are rising ahead of inflation. I'm doing pretty well personally and my kids are doing well in their chosen professions. Thats why the economic argument is important to me. 
I have some sympathy with number 2 on your list. Devolution - which I supportrd - was supposed to fix that. However I fear it hasn't. Many of the local authorities in Scotland are increasingly frustrated by the Scottish Parliaments grab of powers from them. 
Number 3 cannot happen in a positive way unless you can afford it. We could make things more equal by chasing the wealthy out of Scotland with high taxation - as many nationalists seem to call for - but all that means is there is a far smaller financial pool to share out equally as the over all tax take falls and foreign  investment dries up. Personally I prefer to see us all being wealthier rather than more equal. I don't care how my life measures against Simon Cowell, just that I'm financially comfortabble. 
4 is also impossible without our own currency. Unfortunately the SNP policy is for sterlingisation. Do a quick search, read up on it and you'll see why fiscal autonomy is not being proposed as part of the nationalist deal. 
And number 1 is slightly strange if you don't mind me saying so. The nationalists have stoked anti English xenophobia and isolationism all my life. A hard border between us and our closest friends and neighbours seems silly whether its Brexit or Indy Ref 2

Firstly, I’d like to apologise to everyone that has asked to stop quoting the present SNPBaaad, too wee, too poor resident poster.

So Scotland is doing well? We are all comfortable & it’s entirely down to goons like Blair, Brown, Cameron, May? Why can’t the fact that Scotland has a pro-active government that puts Scotland first be a reason for us doing well? Before devolution, Scotland had a higher unemployment rate than Ruk in general terms. It’s a nonsense that you twist your argument two ways to suit whatever point you are arguing for the next 2 minutes! Either Scotland is failing or it isn’t, make you’re mind up.
2. The Scottish Government didn’t “grab power” from local authorities. It decided a national policy of council tax freeze for a number of years to protect the poorest in our society, likewise relief on bedroom tax. As I said, this is the indicator of a progressive & caring society.
3. Of course it’s possible, there are far more progressive & caring societies (even in Europe) , I’ve not seen the richest in Norway, Sweden, Switzerland to name a few, exiting the country due to high tax regimes. Again, a fallacy only clubg to, by dyed in the wool Tories who believe everyone else is an absolute selfish c**t, just like them.
4. You are confusing the SNP with the general Independence movement, where, in the act of Union does it state that the BOE dictates financial policy over & above other nation states wishes? The pound is as much Scotlands as it is Englands. Now, the caveat is that it’s based in London which just happens to be in England, unless we have absolutely hell bent enemy of Scotland Indy types in UK power(which we will for evermore) then a fiscal policy could be worked out. However, there’s plenty other countries have set up a central bank & run deficits after Indy.
1. You are an absolute liar, yes, there is a small, even tiny minority of Indy supporters that are anti-English, they are wrong. Independence supporters are not anti-English and I’ve never met anyone in my circle of friends that wouldn’t want to be close friends with our nearest neighbour. Please show the SNP or YES movement senior figures that have endorsed anything other than an encompassing desire for reaching out to all nations.

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58 minutes ago, Kuro said:

With estimated figures provided almost entirely by your neighbour who is desperately trying to convince you to allow them to retain control of your finances.  Aye I'm sure that'll work out well for you.

The figures were good enough to base independence on when it suited.

Regardless of your own position regarding GERS, it is quite clear that it will be as prominent in the anti-independence case as it was by the Yes movement at the last referendum.  I don't think an argument of "it's all shite from England' is going to win over anyone that is hesitant about the economics of independence.

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14 minutes ago, strichener said:

The figures were good enough to base independence on when it suited.

The figures are the only ones available.

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39 minutes ago, Brother Blades said:


Firstly, I’d like to apologise to everyone that has asked to stop quoting the present SNPBaaad, too wee, too poor resident poster.

So Scotland is doing well? We are all comfortable & it’s entirely down to goons like Blair, Brown, Cameron, May? Why can’t the fact that Scotland has a pro-active government that puts Scotland first be a reason for us doing well? Before devolution, Scotland had a higher unemployment rate than Ruk in general terms. It’s a nonsense that you twist your argument two ways to suit whatever point you are arguing for the next 2 minutes! Either Scotland is failing or it isn’t, make you’re mind up.
2. The Scottish Government didn’t “grab power” from local authorities. It decided a national policy of council tax freeze for a number of years to protect the poorest in our society, likewise relief on bedroom tax. As I said, this is the indicator of a progressive & caring society.
3. Of course it’s possible, there are far more progressive & caring societies (even in Europe) , I’ve not seen the richest in Norway, Sweden, Switzerland to name a few, exiting the country due to high tax regimes. Again, a fallacy only clubg to, by dyed in the wool Tories who believe everyone else is an absolute selfish c**t, just like them.
4. You are confusing the SNP with the general Independence movement, where, in the act of Union does it state that the BOE dictates financial policy over & above other nation states wishes? The pound is as much Scotlands as it is Englands. Now, the caveat is that it’s based in London which just happens to be in England, unless we have absolutely hell bent enemy of Scotland Indy types in UK power(which we will for evermore) then a fiscal policy could be worked out. However, there’s plenty other countries have set up a central bank & run deficits after Indy.
1. You are an absolute liar, yes, there is a small, even tiny minority of Indy supporters that are anti-English, they are wrong. Independence supporters are not anti-English and I’ve never met anyone in my circle of friends that wouldn’t want to be close friends with our nearest neighbour. Please show the SNP or YES movement senior figures that have endorsed anything other than an encompassing desire for reaching out to all nations.
 

Oh dear. Note to self: this is what happens when you try to engage in a reasonable discussion with a Nationalist. As soon as you challenge their seemingly calm and salient initial argument in a similarly polite manner they will retort with the words similar too "liar", "selfish", "yoon", "goon" and "c**t". 

Next time Malky don't be so niave as to assume theres a reasonable Scottish Nationalist. 

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8 hours ago, strichener said:

I accept that the actual amount borrowed was £250m as we appear to have received Barnett for Crossrail and other things to make up the difference.

What a mealy-mouthed apology!

No criticism whatsoever for Westminster going significantly over their calculated budget, and having to increase Barnett funding to reflect their own inability to keep to a budget.

If Scotland has received £157 million extra funding, this suggests that the overspend in England is approximately 10 times that figure, or around £1.5 billion!

NI & Wales will also have received additional Barnett funding in proportion to their populations, so the total amount is even higher.

Note that Strichiner also fails to give any credit whatsoever credit the Scottish Government for "fiscal capital underspends emerging across portfolios" 

To put a more exact figure on it, that works out as £43 million worth of savings against the budgeted Scottish Government capital spend last year.

Personally, I prefer to vote for a government that keeps within budget for necessary capital projects that benefit the people of Scotland as opposed to a government that spunks money away on vanity projects like HS2 & Crossrail. Maybe that's just me, though.

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Oh dear. Note to self: this is what happens when you try to engage in a reasonable discussion with a Nationalist. As soon as you challenge their seemingly calm and salient initial argument in a similarly polite manner they will retort with the words similar too "liar", "selfish", "yoon", "goon" and "c**t". 
Next time Malky don't be so niave as to assume theres a reasonable Scottish Nationalist. 

I only called you a liar, which you are.
If you’re also associating yourself with recent Tory & Blairite governments that’s up to you.
Actually, your inability to address the points raised, means that you are the first person I’ve put on ignore.
You Yoon, c**t, Tory.

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30 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Oh dear. Note to self: this is what happens when you try to engage in a reasonable discussion with a Nationalist. As soon as you challenge their seemingly calm and salient initial argument in a similarly polite manner they will retort with the words similar too "liar", "selfish", "yoon", "goon" and "c**t". 

Next time Malky don't be so niave as to assume theres a reasonable Scottish Nationalist. 

To be honest Malky, I think that is what happens when you are shown a different side to your argument and you can't accept it.  You have stated what your opinions are and others have stated theirs.  It appears that you only accept your own points as correct, despite reasons to the contrary.

I do hope that you consider voting Yes when we hold our Independence referendum.  

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1 hour ago, Malky3 said:

Oh dear. Note to self: this is what happens when you try to engage in a reasonable discussion with a Nationalist. As soon as you challenge their seemingly calm and salient initial argument in a similarly polite manner they will retort with the words similar too "liar", "selfish", "yoon", "goon" and "c**t". 

Next time Malky don't be so niave as to assume theres a reasonable Scottish Nationalist. 

You were calling people stupid, idiots and liars earlier in the thread, so your Helen Lovejoy faux outrage doesn't really wash m9.

While we're on the subject of lies, how about you tell us more about the OBFA ?

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54 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

What a mealy-mouthed apology!

No criticism whatsoever for Westminster going significantly over their calculated budget, and having to increase Barnett funding to reflect their own inability to keep to a budget.

If Scotland has received £157 million extra funding, this suggests that the overspend in England is approximately 10 times that figure, or around £1.5 billion!

NI & Wales will also have received additional Barnett funding in proportion to their populations, so the total amount is even higher.

Note that Strichiner also fails to give any credit whatsoever credit the Scottish Government for "fiscal capital underspends emerging across portfolios" 

To put a more exact figure on it, that works out as £43 million worth of savings against the budgeted Scottish Government capital spend last year.

Personally, I prefer to vote for a government that keeps within budget for necessary capital projects that benefit the people of Scotland as opposed to a government that spunks money away on vanity projects like HS2 & Crossrail. Maybe that's just me, though.

It wasn't an apology. 

Of course there was no mention of Westminster going over budget as the topic is Scotland spending more than it raises.  Interestingly the £43m of capital underspend in 2018/19 is likely to be deferred rather than savings since the 2019/20 budget is anticipating the use of the full £450m borrowing powers and a drawdown from reserves of £313m including £46m of capital funding.

Of course the Scottish Government hasn't spunked any money on projects, no sireee.  The Edinburgh Trams was the embodiment of excellent governance and let's not get started on the IT projects at NHS 24,  SPPA and Rural Payments.  We await the result of negotiations over the AWPR to see how much, if anything, this costs us.

The lack of transparency in the Scottish Government has been raised numerous times (e.g. on loans to FMSL and BiFab) with the Scottish Government repeatedly pledging to release full accounts when pressed by the Auditor General and as yet it hasn't happened.  I will await Audit Scotland's report on NPD value for money before handing out any plaudits for capital projects under the current administration.

Edited by strichener

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8 minutes ago, strichener said:

Of course the Scottish Government hasn't spunked any money on projects, no sireee.  The Edinburgh Trams was the embodiment of excellent governance.

It's a bit disingenuous to lay the trams fiasco at the door of the Scottish government.

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