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When will indyref2 happen?


Colkitto

Indyref2  

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2 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

I love the fact that Scotland is underperforming economically is a argument aganst independence for unionist types.

Their solution to the debt problem is to remain with the political institution that is actively racking up the debt to keep us dependent and subservient.

You honestly couldn't make it up.

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54 minutes ago, BawWatchin said:

The Scottish Parliament is given a budget of £33bn. £27bn is retained by Wesminster + they borrow another £13bn on top of that.

These services would NOT cost £40bn a year in Scotland. The UK Government are at it.

How do you know? Where are your costings? As I said in the White Paper the SNP assumed we'd get much of it for free from the UK. That doesn't seem realistic to me. What does seem fairer to assume is that if Westminster charges those rates currently they would continue to charge at least the same. Since there also appears to be no competition it would seem the only alternative would be for Scotland to set up our own. So for Independence to be costed they'd have to show how they'd factored in the cost of land or of real estate, the cost of construction, equipment, recruitment, training and ongoing salaries and then show that they had factored in a margin of error for mistakes. As an overspend would cause real problems under Sterlingisation. 

Remember too that Scotlands politicians aren't very good at projects. The Scottish Parliament building came in way over budget; the Forth Crossing Bride was opened by the Queen then immediately closed again; the hospital in Glasgow has huge ongoing issues; the Sick Kids Hospital in Edinburgh is already years behind schedule and over budget and they still don't know when it will be open; the Ring Road in Aberdeen had the same issues; and ferries ordered ny government owned Cal Mac are coming in at twice the original cost; and Prestwick Airport has been a loss making venture. There are many more I could cite too. 

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1 minute ago, Malky3 said:

How do you know? Where are your costings? As I said in the White Paper the SNP assumed we'd get much of it for free from the UK. That doesn't seem realistic to me. What does seem fairer to assume is that if Westminster charges those rates currently they would continue to charge at least the same. Since there also appears to be no competition it would seem the only alternative would be for Scotland to set up our own. So for Independence to be costed they'd have to show how they'd factored in the cost of land or of real estate, the cost of construction, equipment, recruitment, training and ongoing salaries and then show that they had factored in a margin of error for mistakes. As an overspend would cause real problems under Sterlingisation. 

Remember too that Scotlands politicians aren't very good at projects. The Scottish Parliament building came in way over budget; the Forth Crossing Bride was opened by the Queen then immediately closed again; the hospital in Glasgow has huge ongoing issues; the Sick Kids Hospital in Edinburgh is already years behind schedule and over budget and they still don't know when it will be open; the Ring Road in Aberdeen had the same issues; and ferries ordered ny government owned Cal Mac are coming in at twice the original cost; and Prestwick Airport has been a loss making venture. There are many more I could cite too. 

You're asking me for my costings. Shouldn't the UK Government be providing this? Why are they so private about it? What are they hiding?

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58 minutes ago, HTG said:

Ffs, is this the best you've got - how would we pay for a civil service infrastructure? We'd do it the same way as most modern European countries do it.  Hardly anyone seems to think that the "give all the money you earn to another country and they'll tell you how much you can have to spend" model is one to adopt. God knows why people are so wedded to it here - apart from shitebaggery or orangism (or both). If it's such a great thing, get Belgium and Luxembourg to chuck all responsibility for their income, expenditure and infrastructure to France and let the French decide how much they should get back. 

Absolute fucking nonsense.

Its not the "best" I've got. I've offered concessions for the sake of debate and theres still a big black hole. You can't simply write off the cost of infrastructure as "nonsense" unless the plan is for our civil servants to work for free out of their bedrooms as a hobby

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1 minute ago, Malky3 said:

Its not the "best" I've got. I've offered concessions for the sake of debate and theres still a big black hole. You can't simply write off the cost of infrastructure as "nonsense" unless the plan is for our civil servants to work for free out of their bedrooms as a hobby

So you say there's a blackhole. But you don't have any concrete breakdown as to what this UK Government generated blackhole is actually spent on in Scotland. Just assumptions that still come nowhere near £40bn a year.

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41 minutes ago, strichener said:

Why can the Scottish government not overspend?  Over which period of time can it not overspend?

Taking the deficit as detailed in GERS (if that is what you want to use) then the £13bln deficit is quite clearly laid out in the report.  The extent to which you believe GERS is entirely down to the individual but you cannot ignore that Scotland's Future described it as "the authoritative publication on Scotland’s public finances." and detailed that it would have been used as "a starting point for discussions of Scotland’s fiscal position following independence."

At least you now appear to be getting to the point where you understand that the Scottish budget is based primarily on UK expenditure and not Scottish Income.

Nicola Sturgeon stated during FM questions on 27th June this year

"Under the current devolution settlement, the Scottish Parliament is not permitted to overspend its budget and I do not think that it takes too much consideration to understand why we need to plan carefully to make sure that we do not do so."

That is the First Minister addressing the parliament, therefore I'm going to assume she is telling the truth.

I fully understand how Holyrood is funded however that isn't really relevant to my queries. It cannot be Holyrood contributing to the deficit if it cannot and does not overspend. 

So, who is spending it... and what on?

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1 minute ago, BawWatchin said:

You're asking me for my costings. Shouldn't the UK Government be providing this? Why are they so private about it? What are they hiding?

Dunno. Maybe they haven't been asked? Maybe they don't want to? Or maybe they've provided them and the Scottish Government don't think it's prudent to let as all know. 

The fact is though we know how it works today. Its incumbent on those who want change to show their costings and to prove it is viable in an independent Scotland. Failing to do that means the whole Indy movement is based on nothing but blind faith in the sort of politicians who are having to pay Alex Salmond up to £750k in compensation for his legal expenses whilst he continues to fight two counts of attempted rape and several more of sexual abuse! 

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1 minute ago, Double Jack D said:

Nicola Sturgeon stated during FM questions on 27th June this year

"Under the current devolution settlement, the Scottish Parliament is not permitted to overspend its budget and I do not think that it takes too much consideration to understand why we need to plan carefully to make sure that we do not do so."

That is the First Minister addressing the parliament, therefore I'm going to assume she is telling the truth.

I fully understand how Holyrood is funded however that isn't really relevant to my queries. It cannot be Holyrood contributing to the deficit if it cannot and does not overspend. 

So, who is spending it... and what on?

f**k me! Someone posting they believe a politician is telling the truth. 🙄

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3 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Dunno. Maybe they haven't been asked? Maybe they don't want to? Or maybe they've provided them and the Scottish Government don't think it's prudent to let as all know. 

The fact is though we know how it works today. Its incumbent on those who want change to show their costings and to prove it is viable in an independent Scotland. Failing to do that means the whole Indy movement is based on nothing but blind faith in the sort of politicians who are having to pay Alex Salmond up to £750k in compensation for his legal expenses whilst he continues to fight two counts of attempted rape and several more of sexual abuse! 

Do we?

Who is spending the £13bn and what is it spent on?

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10 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Remember too that Scotlands politicians aren't very good at projects. The Scottish Parliament building came in way over budget; the Forth Crossing Bride was opened by the Queen then immediately closed again; the hospital in Glasgow has huge ongoing issues; the Sick Kids Hospital in Edinburgh is already years behind schedule and over budget and they still don't know when it will be open; the Ring Road in Aberdeen had the same issues; and ferries ordered ny government owned Cal Mac are coming in at twice the original cost; and Prestwick Airport has been a loss making venture. There are many more I could cite too. 

This is an utterly mental argument you're making. The idea that infrastructure projects are sometimes a challenge to deliver on time and on budget is a pretty universal phenomenon. Then you muddy it with things like Prestwick Airport and ferries which are quantified in an entirely different way - the intervention isn't to boost the governments coffers, it's to mitigate other societal/economical issues and spend less in the long run. You do realise as well that the politicians don't actually micromanage these projects? The same process is probably going to be employed wherever the political administration is based - they use the same labour and private firms.

I'd be very interested to see the number of billions that was projected in UK military spending prior to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, the law suits in PIP assessments and how much we really lost out with deregulation in the financial sector.

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8 minutes ago, Double Jack D said:

Do we?

Who is spending the £13bn and what is it spent on?

Yes we do. The UK works - it could be better but it functions to give us a lifestyle we all can recognise today. 

Unless we know for a fact that the SNP could provide all we know and understand today for less than Scotland currently pays then we need to ask what benefits or services would be sacrificed or how much extra tax we'd all have to pay. To give the SNP some credit the White Paper in 2014 attempted to do that but it was based on oil revenues being much higher than they have been since. The SNP claimed we'd have everything we currently have and the deficit on the White Paper to March 2018 was £29.9Bn. Sterlingisation would have meant that the deficit would have had to be met with cuts and raised taxes so I think its reasonable to ask, how would the Nationalists propose we fill in a £29.9Bn black hole? 

Edited by Malky3
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15 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Dunno. Maybe they haven't been asked? Maybe they don't want to? Or maybe they've provided them and the Scottish Government don't think it's prudent to let as all know. 

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14 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

The fact is though we know how it works today. Its incumbent on those who want change to show their costings and to prove it is viable in an independent Scotland. Failing to do that means the whole Indy movement is based on nothing but blind faith in the sort of politicians who are having to pay Alex Salmond up to £750k in compensation for his legal expenses whilst he continues to fight two counts of attempted rape and several more of sexual abuse! 

It's impossible for them to show the costings, without knowing how things are currently costed as part of the UK. The UK Government knows this which is why they keep a lid on all UK related spending in Scotland.

You have Liz Truss and her UK Civil Servant minions to thank for racking up these costs. Politicians that people like you put their blind faith in.

Edited by BawWatchin
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6 minutes ago, harry94 said:

This is an utterly mental argument you're making. The idea that infrastructure projects are sometimes a challenge to deliver on time and on budget is a pretty universal phenomenon. Then you muddy it with things like Prestwick Airport and ferries which are quantified in an entirely different way - the intervention isn't to boost the governments coffers, it's to mitigate other societal/economical issues and spend less in the long run. You do realise as well that the politicians don't actually micromanage these projects? The same process is probably going to be employed wherever the political administration is based - they use the same labour and private firms.

I'd be very interested to see the number of billions that was projected in UK military spending prior to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, the law suits in PIP assessments and how much we really lost out with deregulation in the financial sector.

That the UK with our own currency can borrow money to cover overspends is not in question. Its the policy of sterlingisation that would mean an Independent Scotland wouldn't have the same scope. 

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Whilst all the financial arguments are valid & necessary, it seems that’s all that Wee Malky fae Glasgow has....
What about the Indy supporters who want Scotland to be Independent for the following reasons.
1. Remove ourselves from the ever increasing isolationism & xenophobia being shown in other parts of the UK.
2. Bring democracy closer to the people.
3. A fairer & more forward looking society.
4. Actually having a government that our nation has voted for, with full fiscal autonomy.

As has been stated numerous times previously, if Scotland is “failing” under the current arrangements, surely its time to try something new?

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48 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Yes we do. The UK works - it could be better but it functions to give us a lifestyle we all can recognise today.

But Scotland can't work eh? If it hadn't been for the UK, we'd still be living in clanland in our wee wooden sheds right?

It's not like we would have just moved forward anyway like the rest of the world....

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