When will indyref2 happen?

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Not an alternate reality at all. In the 60's, 70's and even into the 80's it was a regular argument as to why you shouldn't vote SNP - at least in and around the Glasgow and Paisley area. The only justification I heard for that argument was that they had links to Irish Republicanism. 
I'm not arguing that any of it was ever correct BTW, I was just as disbelieving back then of those shite stories as I am today of Nationalists claiming that every No voter is a Union Flag wearing, Orange Order Royalist. As I said I had thought we were beyond that shite - but it seems a fair number of Nationalists on this forum are intent on dragging sectarianism and bigotry into the debate in the same way they do with their anti English xenophobia. 
All these pages on since I first posted on here and only one Nationalist has posted anything positive that might change if Scotland became Independent. He wanted to scrap Corporation Tax and was immediately shouted down by fellow Nationalists who had no positive contribution to make other than to slag of England, Yoons, Westminster and Brexit. It's a shame to see such poor standards of political discourse. 

I was a member of the Labour Party in the 1980s/90s - I can tell you now that the only party that indulged in sectarianism was the Labour Party.

[Malky3]

6 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

36 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Not an alternate reality at all. In the 60's, 70's and even into the 80's it was a regular argument as to why you shouldn't vote SNP - at least in and around the Glasgow and Paisley area. The only justification I heard for that argument was that they had links to Irish Republicanism. 
I'm not arguing that any of it was ever correct BTW, I was just as disbelieving back then of those shite stories as I am today of Nationalists claiming that every No voter is a Union Flag wearing, Orange Order Royalist. As I said I had thought we were beyond that shite - but it seems a fair number of Nationalists on this forum are intent on dragging sectarianism and bigotry into the debate in the same way they do with their anti English xenophobia. 
All these pages on since I first posted on here and only one Nationalist has posted anything positive that might change if Scotland became Independent. He wanted to scrap Corporation Tax and was immediately shouted down by fellow Nationalists who had no positive contribution to make other than to slag of England, Yoons, Westminster and Brexit. It's a shame to see such poor standards of political discourse. 

I was a member of the Labour Party in the 1980s/90s - I can tell you now that the only party that indulged in sectarianism was the Labour Party.

Fair enough. My point was the ridiculous nature of the argument and my sadness at seeing Nationalist SNP voters resorting to sectarian barbs against No voters. It would have been nice to have seen Nationalists digging up the idiots for labelling 55% of the country as Orange Order members, but it seems that hypocrisy is rife - on this forum at least. 

[Mark Connolly]

50 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

There is some truth to that too. In North Lanarkshire, even into the 90's, the Catholic Church was supposed to have a strong influence over what candidates the party would put forward in the area. The story went that the Archdiocese in Motherwell headed by Cardinal Winning had undue influence and that Jack McConnell fought that in the local area. I don't think the church had the same influence in other areas. 

We should all be beyond this nonsense though. It does no-one any credit whatsoever to bring religious dogma into the political arena - and it's does the Nationalist movement no credit at all to continually tar 55% of Scots as Orange Order / Freemasons. 

Motherwell is a Diocese, not an Archdiocese, and Joe Devine was the Bishop from the early 80s until 2013.

[Malky3]

4 minutes ago, Mark Connolly said:

Motherwell is a Diocese, not an Archdiocese, and Joe Devine was the Bishop from the early 80s until 2013.

Ok. I'm glad you've taken such a passionate interest in it. 

 

[Mark Connolly]

It's hardly a passionate interest for someone who was raised as a Catholic to know who the Bishops and Archbishops are/were.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

12 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Ok. I've been caught out talking utter shite again.

FTFY

[dirty dingus]

6 hours ago, Malky3 said:

Oh aye, that covers the 2m people right enough. 

Maybe I should claim that all Nationalists are homophobic, sex abusers, who steal money from food banks or who use funds raised to pay their ex wife's maintenance payments. 

Mind you started of as a rational Yoon. Weirdo.

 

[Ira Gaines]

[D Angelo Barksdale]

43 minutes ago, dirty dingus said:

Mind you started of as a rational Yoon. Weirdo.

 

They all start off like that tbf. The 'sensible adult in the room' talking about fiscal deficits and unnecessary risks.

The mask always slips though, and  when they're caught out the zoomerism takes over.

By the end they're sharing Facebook posts of Sturgeon's head photoshopped on Jimmy Krankie and commenting 'Wee Nippy has been trying to get this picture banned from Facebook, let's share the hell out of it to show her No means No'

[jimmy boo]

25 minutes ago, Warren Mears said:

Aherm???

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Absolutely no one is saying that every single person who voted no was a member of the OO ffs. There are 3 types of no voter
1) the people scared into voting no by folk chapping the door saying ‘they’ll take your pension or ‘you’re an eu citizen? Well the only way you can stay is by voting no to protect our EU membership!’
2) I dont think independence will work no voter
3) OO and RFC ‘staunch’ types.
No one’s saying every no voter is in the lodge, but its not outrageous to suggest every OO member ‘staunch’ person and bnp/nf/sdl type was a no voter.

[Malky3]

37 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Absolutely no one is saying that every single person who voted no was a member of the OO ffs. There are 3 types of no voter
1) the people scared into voting no by folk chapping the door saying ‘they’ll take your pension or ‘you’re an eu citizen? Well the only way you can stay is by voting no to protect our EU membership!’
2) I dont think independence will work no voter
3) OO and RFC ‘staunch’ types.
No one’s saying every no voter is in the lodge, but its not outrageous to suggest every OO member ‘staunch’ person and bnp/nf/sdl type was a no voter.

It also wouldn't be outrageous to suggest that every SNLA terrorist or that the lunatics that indulged it the "White Settlers" nonsense would be Yes voters. But unlike what was happening on here yesterday no one was attempting to smear all nationalist voters with a broad brush. 

We only got to this point yesterday because I responded to photos where a couple of posters posted pictures of Orange Walk marchers, details of how they were related to the Freemasons, and accused me of being one of them because I voted No. It was Nationalists who evoked sectarianism on this thread, yet again, and because I argued that it was outdated and wrong to go down that route I'm this morning classed as the "Yoon Zoomer" by some forum Nationalists who are clearly less than capable of representing their cause. 

FWIW I think its slightly more complicated than there just being three types of No vote and as I've highlighted the proprtion of No voters that would fit into your third catagory is tiny. 

For example I voted No on the basis that no one had sold me the Independence argument by proving beyond all doubt that it was better than what we have. I think many other No voters fall into a similar category. On here I've asked repeatedly for benefits of being Independent and apart from one poster who was shouted down for suggesting lowering Corporation Tax to zero there hasn't been another positive point raised for Independence. Therein is the problem for the Nationalist movement. To win any Independence Referendum you will need to convince people like me that we'd be better off in an economy that is heavily dependent on the export of hydro carbons and alcohol rather than the more diverse economy we have as a United Kingdom. 

You need to sell Sterlingisation by showing how Scotland could be run without any fiscal deficit entirely living with its means. You'd need to sell how imposing trade barriers on our nearest neighbour and possibly a hard border would be better for Scotland than the Irish Government are saying it will be for them. And you'll need to show how Scotland would be a better place on its own, you know, like a place where sectarianism is a thing of the past, and not something evoked by the nationalist movement to attempt to bully no voters into voting yes. 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

8 hours ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

 No means No'

Fairly sure Malky is the type who thinks "no" means "yes" tbqh. 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

It also wouldn't be outrageous to suggest that every SNLA terrorist or that the lunatics that indulged it the "White Settlers" nonsense would be Yes voters. But unlike what was happening on here yesterday no one was attempting to smear all nationalist voters with a broad brush. 
We only got to this point yesterday because I responded to photos where a couple of posters posted pictures of Orange Walk marchers, details of how they were related to the Freemasons, and accused me of being one of them because I voted No. It was Nationalists who evoked sectarianism on this thread, yet again, and because I argued that it was outdated and wrong to go down that route I'm this morning classed as the "Yoon Zoomer" by some forum Nationalists who are clearly less than capable of representing their cause. 
FWIW I think its slightly more complicated than there just being three types of No vote and as I've highlighted the proprtion of No voters that would fit into your third catagory is tiny. 
For example I voted No on the basis that no one had sold me the Independence argument by proving beyond all doubt that it was better than what we have. I think many other No voters fall into a similar category. On here I've asked repeatedly for benefits of being Independent and apart from one poster who was shouted down for suggesting lowering Corporation Tax to zero there hasn't been another positive point raised for Independence. Therein is the problem for the Nationalist movement. To win any Independence Referendum you will need to convince people like me that we'd be better off in an economy that is heavily dependent on the export of hydro carbons and alcohol rather than the more diverse economy we have as a United Kingdom. 
You need to sell Sterlingisation by showing how Scotland could be run without any fiscal deficit entirely living with its means. You'd need to sell how imposing trade barriers on our nearest neighbour and possibly a hard border would be better for Scotland than the Irish Government are saying it will be for them. And you'll need to show how Scotland would be a better place on its own, you know, like a place where sectarianism is a thing of the past, and not something evoked by the nationalist movement to attempt to bully no voters into voting yes. 

Hysterical Helen Lovejoy think of the children pish.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Incredible to think that Scotland had eradicated religious conflict, until the SNP decided to reintroduce sectarianism alongside the council tax freeze in 2009.

[ArabianKnight]

Nobody suggesting a Scotland that's entirely the same as it is now as a postivie case for independence shocker. 

The whole point of independence to me is to provide Scotland with the policy and fiscal levers that better suit it than being under a policy regime that suits London/South East England tory austerity focused bullshit. 

That's the positive case there, having much more control over policy and fiscal measures that better align with what a country of 5.5 million needs rather than a financial services focused subset of a population of 60 million. 

[Dan Steele]

17 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

To win any Independence Referendum you will need to convince people like me that we'd be better off in an economy that is heavily dependent on the export of hydro carbons and alcohol rather than the more diverse economy we have as a United Kingdom. 

Genuine question here, what diversity of economic activity does the UK have that an independent Scotland doesn't/wouldn't have? I think it might be similar but when you add in hydrocarbons and whisky, a post-indy Scotland would surely be stronger?

[Malky3]

25 minutes ago, ArabianKnight said:

Nobody suggesting a Scotland that's entirely the same as it is now as a postivie case for independence shocker. 

The whole point of independence to me is to provide Scotland with the policy and fiscal levers that better suit it than being under a policy regime that suits London/South East England tory austerity focused bullshit. 

That's the positive case there, having much more control over policy and fiscal measures that better align with what a country of 5.5 million needs rather than a financial services focused subset of a population of 60 million. 

Ok great. So the SNP policy on currency is sterlingisation. How would that equate with greater fiscal control? 

[Malky3]

40 minutes ago, The Skelpit Lug said:

Genuine question here, what diversity of economic activity does the UK have that an independent Scotland doesn't/wouldn't have? I think it might be similar but when you add in hydrocarbons and whisky, a post-indy Scotland would surely be stronger?

Would an Independent Scotland be one of the financial centres in the world? The financial sector in London was worth £408 Bn to the UK economy in 2016. 

Theres loads of other examples whether you want to talk about manufacturing, construction or the service sector. Indeed the UK economy on the whole was so diverse that when the price of oil collapsed it was seen as a positive for the UK economy. 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Malky3

[DeeTillEhDeh]

It's hardly a passionate interest for someone who was raised as a Catholic to know who the Bishops and Archbishops are/were.

Ditto.