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When will indyref2 happen?

Indyref2  

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1 hour ago, DrewDon said:

Unionist Twitter is full of mentalists too - some genuinely certifiable characters on there. My favourites are the ones who complain that the "nats" are obsessed with flags whilst having little union flags all over their display names/bios. 

What I find more mental isn't the flag obsessed unionists, it's the moderates who seem to have some form of intelligence but then also try to claim some sort of equivalence between the likes of Sturgeon and the right-wing nationalist figureheads like Boris and Farage.

I noticed this belter appear on my timeline yesterday with some football journalists I follow liking/sharing it.

I found it quite funny seeing that literally two minutes after watching a video of Sturgeon give a TED talk describing the changes she'd make to better understand the economy. Fair dos, you don't like her and have an emotional connection to the UK or are too scared by it but just say that rather than claim lack of substance because you have heard a 10 word sound bite.

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Is that all their argument is now? The whole "Mul of Kintyre", "please don't leave us, we love you" pish? Ain't going to wash, biys. 

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2 hours ago, DrewDon said:

Unionist Twitter is full of mentalists too - some genuinely certifiable characters on there. My favourites are the ones who complain that the "nats" are obsessed with flags whilst having little union flags all over their display names/bios. 

You misunderstand mate. It's not that they think we're obsessed with flags, it's that we're not obsessed with enough flags.

You need to have at least 3 flags or in their case a UK/US/Israeli flag, or you're doing it wrong.

Edited by BawWatchin

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I like how no voters here and Tories down south always trot out the line 'Scotland had it's chance and wanted to keep the Union'.  As if absolutely nothing has happened/changed in UK or European politics in the last half decade.

Utter fucking simpletons, and I can't stress that enough.  The logic of people requiring immediate lobotomies. 

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4 minutes ago, This time Perthshirebell said:

Oil prices in the white paper weren't some figures plucked out the sky by Alex Salmond!    It was based on projections by economists at the OBR.   Westminister uses the same set of figures.  

That's probably where they went wrong.

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18 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

I like how no voters here and Tories down south always trot out the line 'Scotland had it's chance and wanted to keep the Union'.  As if absolutely nothing has happened/changed in UK or European politics in the last half decade.

Utter fucking simpletons, and I can't stress that enough.  The logic of people requiring immediate lobotomies. 

I'm sure their mums gave them alcoholic lobotomies during birth tbh. Ljsl9nQ.png

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I like how no voters here and Tories down south always trot out the line 'Scotland had it's chance and wanted to keep the Union'.  As if absolutely nothing has happened/changed in UK or European politics in the last half decade.
Utter fucking simpletons, and I can't stress that enough.  The logic of people requiring immediate lobotomies. 


Everyone knows that once a political decision has been made, that’s it finished.

That’s why we don’t bother having elections every few years. Because it’s all decided.

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You misunderstand mate. It's not that they think we're obsessed with flags, it's that we're not obsessed with enough flags.
You need to have at least 3 flags or in their case a UK/US/Israeli flag, or you're doing it wrong.

Thing about it is i’m about as passionate indy supporter as you can get, but it’s nothing to do with ethno-nationalism etc, i’ve never waved a flag of any kind in my life and haven’t been to a Scotland game in about 20 years, yet we are all painted as some kind of Kilt wearing drum bangers with our faces painted shouting ‘freeedom’ etc. It couldnt be further from the truth for most of the indy supporters I know as well. Its about rejecting right wing isolationism, reaching out, becoming a fair and prosperous country that fulfils its potential. I saw something on twitter that linked to a French news report that said Scotland would be the 14th richest country in the world (ahead of France) if we became independent, imagine what we could do? Id also like however an indy Scotland to measure its success on the happiness and success of its people, not our gdp.
Instead we are being forced into an isolationist English/British exceptionalism lead nonsense that will see us all becoming poorer, there is absolutely no upside to Brexit for Scotland.
However come the first of November I fully expect that when the UK is no longer an EU country and the rules around constitutional matters in member states dont apply, that we will have an offer for EU membership, fast tracked, its already been hinted at. We’d be a credit to the EU as a partner, instead of being treated as a colony of England.

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6 hours ago, Malky3 said:

I've been around for a fair wee while on this planet and one of the things I've learned that may perhaps surprise you is that ALL politicians lie. There hasn't been a single election whether regional or national that was won without a huge amount of bullshit being involved in the campaign. Anyone with any sense treats politicians and political parties with a huge amount of scepticism. 

My life is pretty good currently. My wife and I have good jobs; we're reasonably well paid; own a nice house; enjoy cheap interest rates on the small amount left on our mortgage; and all of our kids working in good gainful employment. I know things aren't perfect in the world but as far as I can things are as good as they have been in my lifetime for the majority of the country - in the world even! The principle I vote on is simple. I know what I have got with things as they are so unless change is going to bring clear benefits I'll vote for what we've got. 

I didn't believe claims that the oil price would soar to record levels to make us all rich as the SNP had claimed in their White Paper. I didn't believe their White Paper to be fully costed, and I couldn't believe that having been given a blank sheet of paper to change anything they want about the countries infrastructure and benefits system that they've spent most of my lifetime complaining about the best they could come up with is that everything would be the same, except we'll all be richer thanks to the oil. The case for change was not convincing, it felt like it was being sold by snake oil salesmen who couldn't be trusted (SNP) to gullible fools who were incapable of listening to both sides of an argument and who instead wanted to shout down any opposition at all. 

To that extent my "prize" and I suspect that for the majority of Scots who voted No in 2014 is that we have remained in the most successful political union in the history of the world. A political union that benefited a bankrupt post Darien Scotland and elevated our nation and our people to be amongst the richest, most respected and most powerful in the world. A political union that has continued to ensure fiscal and economic stability in Scotland in the five years since. I've been claiming my prize all my life and will continue to do so for at least "a generation". 

Brexit is a tragedy in my opinion but only the Scottish Nationalists could see the hassle the thought of a hard border in Ireland could cause and think "We'll have some of that" here! You'll not be surprised to hear I also voted to remain. 

 

 

Darien was subsequently elevated by Unionists as a cause celebre for entering into the Union when in fact it wasn't. Of far greater significance were the various acts passed by the English and Scottish parliaments between 1701 and 1705 aimed at solving the thorny issue around the joint succession of the dynastic Union between the two countries. The English parliament's Act of Settlement sought to anoint a successor without consulting the Scottish parliament, the Scots subsequently passing the Act of Security that meant they would pick their own successor unless several political and religious conditions were met. 

The final English response was the Alien Act of 1705 that threatened to break off all trade between the two countries and significantly refuse Scotland access to the North American colonies (Scotland's own North American colony, Nova Scotia having been traded away by Charles I after involving us in another English war) as well as ban 'aliens' from owning land and property in England. This was deemed by the Scottish aristocracy to be a far greater threat to their economic security than the one off 'disaster' of Darien, the costs of which were largely absorbed by the time the Act of Union came. The English threat would only be rescinded on the basis of either a repeal of the Act of Security or as subsequently occurred, negotiations into the Act of Union were undertaken.

Far from graciously saving Scotland from penury as Unionist tried to claim afterwards, it was the threat of economic blockade in the face of Scottish intransigence over the succession that brought the Union about. England would not risk a separate, independent monarch to the North, free from all ties with England who could potentially ally with England's enemies.  

There were no immediate economic benefits of the Union. If the Enlightenment with it's significant cultural and economic benefits were in any degree the result of the Union, and this can be disputed, it was a very delayed gratification by a good half century or more. A further irony abounds that the American revolution removed the English gateway to the ex-colonies anyway, and had Scotland played a better hand in those first half dozen years of the 18th Century the Union might have never happened.

This is of course ancient history but worth mentioning in the context of any comments tinged by gratitude over the Union saviour of the Darien disaster. I would not dispute that this political Union subsequently offered many individuals access to great wealth and prosperity  but the idea that Scotland itself, robbed of all political autonomy was a great beneficiary is nonsense. I'd also dispute the title of 'most successful political Union' - long running, yes but it did already lose a huge chunk of itself in Ireland. The USA would surely be the overall winner in the political Union stakes, while the Union of the German states must be seen overall as a considerable success. 

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We have all had enough of these English charlatans ruling Scotland. Here in Aberdeen we have their little helpers in the shape of a shambolic minority Labour council. Their leader – Barney Crockett continues to fly the Union Jack from the Townhouse to show his undying support for this corruption of our democratic right. I would urge the good people of Scotland to join the All Under One Banner / Yes March here in Aberdeen on Saturday 17th August
starting at Albyn Place 1.30pm.

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2 hours ago, Double Jack D said:

Good post, it's rare to read a positive case for the union so genuine kudos. I enjoyed reading it.

I would say that I am in similar position to yourself. My kids are a bit younger however and are still in education however my family, generally, has it pretty good. All adults are in gainful employment or are retired and comfortable.

However, I'm a supporter of Scottish Independence. Whilst I would accept that the Union has helped elevate us to a respected, powerful nation I'm not sure that this will continue into the future. Decisions made at a UK level on our behalf over the last couple of decades have put our influence on the world scale at risk. Brexit, the Iraq war, supplying arms to the Yemen conflict are a few of the many  decisions which I don't think Scotland would've made had it been independent. My view is that the future of global politics is through the cooperation of nations through trading and political unions which respect the different cultures of each nation whilst seeking common agreements to allow for movement of people, goods and services. Countries aligned with this approach will be the rich, respected, powerful nations of the future. I think independence, coupled with Scotland's vast resources and well educated population, gives us the greatest opportunity to prosper in this future world. For me, membership of the EU or EFTA is absolutely fundamental in realising that potential.

I agree we need the freedom to trade with all of the countries in the EU and to trade with the rest of the world. Brexit is undoubtedly a step in the wrong direction that is already setting back the UK in terms of growth but I have more faith in the UKs ability to get those trade deals than I have in a Scottish Government winning a place back at the EU table in control of our own economy and fiscal levers. 

I also believe the last thing Scotlands economy needs right now is even more political uncertainty, a hard border with England, and lengthy divorce negotiations to get us out of the UK. 

 

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1 hour ago, This time Perthshirebell said:

Oil prices in the white paper weren't some figures plucked out the sky by Alex Salmond!    It was based on projections by economists at the OBR.   Westminister uses the same set of figures.  

The same OBR that got their predictions wrong when they predicted recession immediately after the Brexit vote. 

Regardless of when the figures came from the preceeding 5 years have shown us that the finanial predictions the SNP based their whole white paper on were wildly inaccurate. Thankfully Scotland voted No. 

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1 minute ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

Another fuckwit to ignore.

Which one?

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5 hours ago, BawWatchin said:

"I'm alright jack."

"Don't want to rock the boat."

"Those at the bottom should try harder and get real jobs."

Like I've said I'm a bit long in the tooth to try that with. In my lifetime I've seen proper slum housing - local authority owned - riddled with damp, barely waterproof and without an inside toilet. I've seen unemployment levels of more than 3million. I've lived through the three day week where we lived by candle light. I've lived through miners strikes, soup kitchens, rat infested rubbish piled high in every town and city. I've seen poverty stricken pensioners being delivered food parcels made up by local school kids. 

My Dad lived through rationing, a benefits system that saw a parish assessor take all your personal belongings away before granting welfare, and Nazi bombing. 

Before him we're talking about debtors prisons and work houses. An era where kids were taken from their families because they were poor. 

Its  been pretty obvious that things have improved massively for those at the bottom.....even those that have made a choice never to do a days work in their lifetime. So spare me your left wing drivel. 

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14 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

I agree we need the freedom to trade with all of the countries in the EU and to trade with the rest of the world. Brexit is undoubtedly a step in the wrong direction that is already setting back the UK in terms of growth but I have more faith in the UKs ability to get those trade deals than I have in a Scottish Government winning a place back at the EU table in control of our own economy and fiscal levers. 

I also believe the last thing Scotlands economy needs right now is even more political uncertainty, a hard border with England, and lengthy divorce negotiations to get us out of the UK. 

 

Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Don’t the Little Britons, who rode high on their claims to economic certainty and stability in 2014, ever reflect on the fact that the state they’ve pledged loyalty to has reduced them, a mere five years later, to, “well, we’ve actually fucked it. But Scotland will f**k it even worse if it dares reclaim statehood”?

Any new Better Together campaign looks like being reduced to claiming that the UK is going in a terrible and mistaken direction led by English and Welsh nationalism, but ... um ... well, Scotland might just be even worse off if it tries to escape it. That’s a far cry from the smug claims of security and stability confidently made during the last campaign. Makes you realise just how little those English and Welsh Brexiteers care about their fawning loyalists north of the border. Ouch. 

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4 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

I agree we need the freedom to trade with all of the countries in the EU and to trade with the rest of the world. Brexit is undoubtedly a step in the wrong direction that is already setting back the UK in terms of growth but I have more faith in the UKs ability to get those trade deals than I have in a Scottish Government winning a place back at the EU table in control of our own economy and fiscal levers. 

I also believe the last thing Scotlands economy needs right now is even more political uncertainty, a hard border with England, and lengthy divorce negotiations to get us out of the UK. 

 

My view is being removed from the worlds biggest trading block with virtually no political ability to change or even guide that process is the last thing our (or any) country needs. The biggest uncertainty we have is that we rely on another country, with clearly different political outlook, deciding our economic fate

I think Scottish membership to the EU post Independence is a shoe in and I'm fairly certain this will be demonstrated on day 1 of the Indyref2 campaign. UK trade deals however.... well we've seen what a mess we've made of the attempt doing one with the EU. I'm not convinced we'll fare any better with any other part of the world. 

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3 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

Like I've said I'm a bit long in the tooth to try that with. In my lifetime I've seen proper slum housing - local authority owned - riddled with damp, barely waterproof and without an inside toilet. I've seen unemployment levels of more than 3million. I've lived through the three day week where we lived by candle light. I've lived through miners strikes, soup kitchens, rat infested rubbish piled high in every town and city. I've seen poverty stricken pensioners being delivered food parcels made up by local school kids. 

My Dad lived through rationing, a benefits system that saw a parish assessor take all your personal belongings away before granting welfare, and Nazi bombing. 

Before him we're talking about debtors prisons and work houses. An era where kids were taken from their families because they were poor. 

Its  been pretty obvious that things have improved massively for those at the bottom.....even those that have made a choice never to do a days work in their lifetime. So spare me your left wing drivel. 

Well you'll be delighted that your party is here to turn the clock back to those wonderful patriotic times when kids were shoved up chimneys with broom brushes.

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23 minutes ago, Malky3 said:

I agree we need the freedom to trade with all of the countries in the EU and to trade with the rest of the world. Brexit is undoubtedly a step in the wrong direction that is already setting back the UK in terms of growth but I have more faith in the UKs ability to get those trade deals than I have in a Scottish Government winning a place back at the EU table in control of our own economy and fiscal levers. 

I also believe the last thing Scotlands economy needs right now is even more political uncertainty, a hard border with England, and lengthy divorce negotiations to get us out of the UK. 

 

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