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When will indyref2 happen?

Indyref2  

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17 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

Because the figures for a separated Scottish revenue raised by such like do not exist.  There is no mechanism used to record it. It's all lumped together with rUK and then apportioned proportionately based on population.

That happens with for example all non household VAT.

But the GERS website says the statisticians use methodologies for each individual revenue stream, including Energy.  I don't think they just compute a per capita share and that's it; especially for a known anomaly.  

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To recap:

A graph is put up showing an enormous transfer of electrical energy from Scotland to England. This is offered as proof that Scotland is richer than Unionist would have you believe.

Tirso, sceptical, enquires as to why that wouldn't already be factored in via the GERS analysis.

The answer as offered by myself and Git'Thum is that such revenue streams are effectively smeared over in GERS thanks to its reporting methods. This may or may nit be true for the topic of interest but is certainly a short coming observed in orther areas of GERS.

The obvious corrollary of that is why can't GERS be amended to show those revenues accurately. The answer being that no reporting mechanism exists and only a large expenditure in setting up a seperate Scottish HMRC, Stats agency and some kind of legislative requirement for the private sector to report would go some ways to rectifying that.

Not sure why that makes me spineless. 

The larger point is that GERS is in fact largely pointless in discussions regarding independence and best ignored. To base the white paper on it in 2014 was a mistake and creates a hostage or fortune down the line as every year since has shown.

 

Edited by renton

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4 minutes ago, renton said:

The answer being that no reporting mechanism exists and only a large expenditure in setting up a seperate Scottish HMRC, Stats agency and some kind of legislative requirement for the private sector to report would go some ways to rectifying that.

Nope.

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I'm well aware of the deficiencies of GERS, thanks, I'm merely pointing out that your claim that amending it would be a monumental effort is bollocks. Of course you'd have to have the will to do it rather than seeking excuses not to do it and not everyone has that.

^ Has never worked with data.

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3 minutes ago, Tibbermoresaint said:

Nope.

Alright, so what does need doing then?

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I work with data every hour of every working day.
^^^ Sales Assistant for Carphone Warehouse.

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4 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:
1 hour ago, Tibbermoresaint said:
I work with data every hour of every working day.

^^^ Sales Assistant for Carphone Warehouse.

😂😂

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3 hours ago, renton said:

The answer to which is, as far as I can see from Murphy's blog and others is that it would be almost impossible to accurately report the number, or even guess at any number.

For energy that is just bollox.  We can accurately attribute energy produced in Scotland v consumed and exported.  National Grid have this information.

The bigger question would be - are energy subsidies accurately accounted for in GERS.  Scotland had a bigger share of renewable subsidies and therefore are these exports actually subsidised by UK taxpayers.

Edited by strichener

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50 minutes ago, strichener said:

For energy that is just bollox.  We can accurately attribute energy produced in Scotland v consumed and exported.  National Grid have this information.

The bigger question would be - are energy subsidies accurately accounted for in GERS.  Scotland had a bigger share of renewable subsidies and therefore are these exports actually subsidised by UK taxpayers.

Have to say i'm even more sceptical of the idea Scotland is subsidised when it comes to Energy than the billions windfall cover-up, to be fair.  

Edited by tirso

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3 minutes ago, tirso said:

Have to say i'm even more sceptical of the idea Scotland is subsidised when it comes to Energy than the billions windfall cover-up, to be fair.  

That isn't what I said though.  Renewable energy is unquestionably subsidised.  We produce more proportionally than other parts of the UK and therefore we are being subsidised in energy production by any verifiable measure.  It is just impossible for it to be otherwise.  The question that I was posing was if these subsidies are more than the value of the energy exported.  This I am not sure of.

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We'll be quids in when they sort out a proper carbon tax then.

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3 hours ago, strichener said:

For energy that is just bollox.  We can accurately attribute energy produced in Scotland v consumed and exported.  National Grid have this information.

The bigger question would be - are energy subsidies accurately accounted for in GERS.  Scotland had a bigger share of renewable subsidies and therefore are these exports actually subsidised by UK taxpayers.

The opposite.

"Locational charging means Scottish generators produce about 12% of UK generation but account for 40% of the transmission costs, or about £100 million per year more than generators in the South."

https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20170107182006/http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Business-Industry/Energy/Infrastructure/TransmissionCharging

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10 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

The opposite.

"Locational charging means Scottish generators produce about 12% of UK generation but account for 40% of the transmission costs, or about £100 million per year more than generators in the South."

https://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20170107182006/http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Business-Industry/Energy/Infrastructure/TransmissionCharging

I posted on this very issue many years back but it has nothing to do with government subsidies.

Here in the North we know about subsidising other areas as we alone (old Hydro area) are responsible for meeting the extra costs of transmission to Shetland.

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3 hours ago, strichener said:

 Renewable energy is unquestionably subsidised. 

Would you like to help us by telling us about the forms of large scale electricity generation that haven't had government help?

Clue: they all have

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1 hour ago, strichener said:

I posted on this very issue many years back but it has nothing to do with government subsidies.

Here in the North we know about subsidising other areas as we alone (old Hydro area) are responsible for meeting the extra costs of transmission to Shetland.

UK has biggest fossil fuel subsidies in the EU, finds commission

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/23/uk-has-biggest-fossil-fuel-subsidies-in-the-eu-finds-commission

What's more the new nuclear plant will have the most heavily subsidised energy in the UK when it opens.

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3 minutes ago, sophia said:

Would you like to help us by telling us about the forms of large scale electricity generation that haven't had government help?

Clue: they all have

If you base your definition of subsidies on tax not collected AND accept that 5% tax on fuel is a subsidy to energy users then I agree.  Otherwise you are wrong.  Using price-gap methodology, the UK does not currently subsidise fossil fuels.

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22 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said:

UK has biggest fossil fuel subsidies in the EU, finds commission

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/23/uk-has-biggest-fossil-fuel-subsidies-in-the-eu-finds-commission

What's more the new nuclear plant will have the most heavily subsidised energy in the UK when it opens.

See my reply to Sophia.  I don't believe that every household energy user feels that paying 5% vat instead of the standard rate of 20% is them receiving a subsidy, the Eurostat data does and therefore Britain could eliminate this statistical subsidy by increasing VAT on fuel to 20%.  It just shows how meaningless this data is and how the definitions can be construed to give any result that you want.

If I could have guessed which link you would have posted from Google without understanding the implications, it would have been this one.:lol:

Nuclear power is already subsidised but that doesn't help your argument as we again generate more than our population share of nuclear energy.

Edited by strichener

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11 hours ago, tirso said:

Not saying you're wrong but surely the Scottish Government civil servants would include appropriate revenue for these streams.

They do it for oil so why wouldn't they do it for Energy?

I'm not saying GERS is necessarily accurate but its' the figures produced now by the pro-independence government.  It's what they based the white paper on.  I'm sceptical such a material amount wouldn't be factored in.

No its not, there are 26 figures in GERS and 25 are provided by London.

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https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/jul/25/nicola-sturgeon-calls-for-new-scotland-independence-vote

Good.

What is not so good is that Boris will either reject devolving the s.30 power along with denying his consent to a new vote......or more likely just ignore her.

You can only imagine that the Tories short term plan is to totally marginalise the Scottish parliament, leading to a longer term gradual neutering of its powers and status. Just like with Brexit, they will be looking to take back control.

The next year or so are absolutely critical to our country. Given that a consensual referendum is not happening, I really hope the indy eadership have a plan B route to independence sorted............or we're doomed.

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